Workers Walk Today

jimmmy

Its amazing to see people public service people cribbing about the pension levy, when there is no such cribbing about the pension itself. Which is worth more - the average industrial wage of the worlds superpower , America, which is 41,000 dollars a year ( less than 28,000 euro ) and which you work damn hard for, or the average Irish public service pension ? There are retired public service pensioners ( for example people who retired 15 years ago ) getting paid more each week now than they ever did working
No wonder the public finances are in poor shape.

Riskymove

jimmmy wrote: »

Which is worth more - the average industrial wage of the worlds superpower , America, which is 41,000 dollars a year ( less than 28,000 euro ) and which you work damn hard for, or the average Irish public service pension ?

dont know - whats the answer jimmmy?

jimmmy

Riskymove wrote: »

dont know

Now which would you think ?

As you no doubt know , public service pension to those who complete their service is 50% of finishing salary plus 18 months tax free lump sum payment. Question is, what is average finishing salary in the public service ? We know average weekly pay in the public service, courtesy of the c.s.o., is 973 euro per week ( 50,000 euro a year in round figures ) ..........but they will not divulge what average finishing salary is. Due to age, promotion etc it is certainly more - but how much more ? Due to so many young people talking about currently being on 30 k etc it may not be unreasonable to suggest average finishing salary is 60 k ( if not 70 k ). Even the 60k finishing salary would mean the average public servant on completion of service gets 90k tax free + 30k a year pension

This is certainly worth more than the 27.5 k euro ( 41,000 dollars ) which is the average industrial wage in America, and which I can assure you ( having being there a number of times ) they work damn hard for, with much less holidays than the Irish public sector etc etc.

And yet our public service, the highest paid in the known world, marches.

Riskymove

Now which would you think ?

somehow i knew you wouldn't just say that you did not know the answer

pathetic....can you really just go around asking questions on boards that you dont have an answer for just to be stirring up the usual anti-public sector crap?

BTW you are right €30k is more than €27k:rolleyes: pity its a made up figure to siut your position

S.L.F

jimmmy wrote: »

We know average weekly pay in the public service, courtesy of the c.s.o., is 973 euro per week ( 50,000 euro a year in round figures )

You are not correct there.

You should have the Public Sector written there, which would includes the ESB, RTE etc etc...those jobs skew the figures up quite a lot.

ESB average wage is €75,000.

On a different forum I told about how I know a guy who has been in the ESB for the last 30 years he's a wage clerk and is making at least €90,000 a year.

Do please try to find a civil service wage clerk who makes that sort of money

Just to be clear the Public and Civil Service is paid by the dept of Finance, the likes of the ESB and RTE are paid directly by the organisations they work for.

jimmmy

Riskymove wrote: »

you are right €30k is more than €27k:rolleyes:

Especially when 30k is a pension and the other is a hard earned wage


Nice that you ignore the 18 months wages tax free lump sum windfall cheque

Riskymove wrote: »

pity its a made up figure to siut your position

Its a guesstimate, as there is no reply from the c.s. as to average finishing wage in the public service....they may be on a stress day off after their hard days work last Friday. Nobody else can definitely confirm average salary at retirement in the public service ; thats why an educated guess has to be made, and I gave you the grounds for the figure arrived at. Instead of going for the player, why not go for the ball ? Given the average public sector wage is known ( @ 50k per year ) + verified by the c.s.o., what do you think is the average public sector pension for those who have completed service? By definition it must be at least 25k plus the tax free lump sum of 75k....which means our public service pensioners get paid more for being retired than the average industrial worker does in the worlds superpower economy for working .

S.L.F

jimmmy wrote: »

I gave you the grounds for the figure arrived at. Given the average public sector wage is known ( @ 50k per year ) + verified by the c.s.o., what do you think is the average public sector pension for those who have completed service? By definition it must be at least 25k plus the tax free lump sum of 75k....which means our public service pensioners get paid more for being retired than the average industrial worker does in the worlds superpower economy for working .

Hi again jimmmy you were doing so well till you changed from public sector to public service.

You wouldn't get a job in the Public Service with such sloppy work

jimmmy

S.L.F wrote: »

Hi again jimmmy you were doing so well till you changed from public sector to public service.

You wouldn't get a job in the Public Service with such sloppy work

Please do not go for the player instead of the ball. I do not make snide remarks about your punctuation....even if you are a "public sector servant" instead of a "public servant" or whatever you want to call yourself. The point is ....why should our public sector / service pensioners get paid more for being retired than the average industrial worker does in the worlds superpower economy for working ?

Things will hopefully change in the budget.;)

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

... The point is ....why should our public sector / service pensioners get paid more for being retired than the average industrial worker does in the worlds superpower economy for working ?

Why should my pension be linked with wage rates in another country paid to people doing a completely different type of work from that I used to do? It's simply not a relevant comparator.

Things will hopefully change in the budget.;)

I don't see the US budget having a great impact on industrial wages.

S.L.F

jimmmy,

wrong again.

I don't work for the govt in any capacity ie I'm not a public or a civil servant not do I work for any of the public sector agencies ESB, RTE nor Bord Na Mona etc etc.

I'm self-employed.

How about a simply question for you, ok?

Are there any of those 380,000 public sector workers who are worth their money?

Scofflaw

Keep it polite, please, or there'll be a couple of bannings.

moderately,
Scofflaw

The Muppet

jimmmy wrote: »

The point is ....why should our public sector / service pensioners get paid more for being retired than the average industrial worker does in the worlds superpower economy for working ?

Things will hopefully change in the budget.;)

Is there some link between the average industrial wage in the states an PS pensions here.

Have you compared other costs\expenses in both scenarios to see if there might be a valid reason for your concerns?

jimmmy

S.L.F wrote: »

How about a simply question for you, ok?

Are there any of those 380,000 public sector workers who are worth their money?

Yes, there certainly are. That answer your question.

However, do you think it sustainable that our average public service pay is the highest in the known world ? And does it not seem something is wrong when our public sector / service pensioners get paid more for being retired than the average industrial worker does in the worlds superpower economy for working ? Ireland is a smaall, open economy, and why should we continue borrowing so much to pay as much as we do for our governments employees / ex employees ?

The Muppet

jimmmy wrote: »

Yes, there certainly are. That answer your question.

However, do you think it sustainable that our average public service pay is the highest in the known world ? And does it not seem something is wrong when our public sector / service pensioners get paid more for being retired than the average industrial worker does in the worlds superpower economy for working ? Ireland is a smaall, open economy, and why should we continue borrowing so much to pay as much as we do for our governments employees / ex employees ?

I'm still missing the relevance of the states average industrial wage.

Can you explain that for me?

If you want to follow the american model perhaps the gov should do away with the public health service all together, that would save a lot of money

S.L.F

jimmmy wrote: »

Yes, there certainly are. That answer your question.

The problem jimmmy I have with your posts is you keep on talking about averages, so going by averages you are not happy that there are people who are worth their money and using your method of reasoning they are over-paid.

thebman

The Muppet wrote: »

If you want to follow the american model perhaps the gov should do away with the public health service all together, that would save a lot of money

When did the American's do away with their public health service?

The Muppet

thebman wrote: »

When did the American's do away with their public health service?

I'm sure you got my point.

irish_bob

The Muppet wrote: »

I'm still missing the relevance of the states average industrial wage.

Can you explain that for me?

If you want to follow the american model perhaps the gov should do away with the public health service all together, that would save a lot of money

it certainly would and the people would be better off also

The Muppet

irish_bob wrote: »

it certainly would and the people would be better off also

Would they really, is that all of the people you are speaking of or just the ones that could afford decent health insurance?

irish_bob

The Muppet wrote: »

Would they really, is that all of the people you are speaking of or just the ones that could afford decent health insurance?

the only role of the goverment should be so as to prevent insurance companies from gouging

due to our extremley generous wellfare state , their is no reason anyone could not afford health insurance , for a single person it costs about 14 euro per week , for a couple with four kids , around 50 quid a week , for this you could be sure of having access to a service which is free of politics and under the thumb of unions like the HSE

Riskymove

jimmmy wrote: »

Its a guesstimate,

an educated guess

No jimmmy, you want to be able to say (as you have already said a few times on this thread alone:rolleyes:) that public service pensioners are getting a pension higher than the average industrial wage in the US.... so you have effectively conjured up a figure that suits that argument

I gave you the grounds for the figure arrived at

By definition it must be at least 25k plus the tax free lump sum of 75k....

absolutely no basis for this statement

again you are totally misrepresenting what the average wage in the public sector means.....there is no basis for interpereting it as "most public servants will reach that level of pay by retirement" ( or indeed at any other point)

which means our public service pensioners get paid more for being retired than the average industrial worker does in the worlds superpower economy for working

again you are missing an important word like "some"

of course some pensioners are earning more than any particular figure you set and others will be earning less than it

this applies to both private and public sectors

the OAP here is probably more than average wage in devloping countries...but whats the relevance?

jimmmy

S.L.F wrote: »

The problem jimmmy I have with your posts is you keep on talking about averages, so going by averages you are not happy that there are people who are worth their money and using your method of reasoning they are over-paid.

Who Said I am " not happy that there are people who are worth their money "????? You cannot say that. Of course there are some very hard and productive workers in the public service. However, we are talking about 350,000 plus people, some are paid a fortune and some are not paid a fortune : what we can talk about is averages, as 350,000 is a large enough group to draw an average from, as the c.s.o. did when they reveal the average wage is 973 per week.

Now, I have answered your question. Could you answer mine ? Do you think it sustainable that our average public service pay is the highest in the known world , and does it not seem something is wrong when our public sector / service pensioners get paid more for being retired than the average industrial worker does in the worlds superpower economy for working ?

The Muppet

irish_bob wrote: »

the only role of the goverment should be so as to prevent insurance companies from gouging

due to our extremley generous wellfare state , their is no reason anyone could not afford health insurance , for a single person it costs about 14 euro per week , for a couple with four kids , around 50 quid a week , for this you could be sure of having access to a service which is free of politics and under the thumb of unions like the HSE

Good One.

S.L.F

jimmmy wrote: »

Who Said I am " not happy that there are people who are worth their money "????? You cannot say that. Of course there are some very hard and productive workers in the public service. However, we are talking about 350,000 plus people, some are paid a fortune and some are not paid a fortune : what we can talk about is averages, as 350,000 is a large enough group to draw an average from, as the c.s.o. did when they reveal the average wage is 973 per week.

Again jimmmy, you are wrong there are not 350,000 people in the public service, it is in the public sector which includes the likes of the semi-states

I'm afraid your idea on what average is and my idea of what average is are poles apart.

Take for example a herd of sheep (999) with a dog in it.

On average there is no dog in it so you don't need to buy dog food.

Or 1 man and ten underlings, he's paid 250,000 per year and they are paid 25,000 per year (on average:D)

*pulls pencil out*

*licks lips*

Means they are paid on average 45,454 per year.

Then some bright spark says they get paid too much they don't need 45,454 per year they should get a pay cut....

That is how averages work.

jimmmy wrote: »

Now, I have answered your question. Could you answer mine ? Do you think it sustainable that our average public service pay is the highest in the known world , and does it not seem something is wrong when our public sector / service pensioners get paid more for being retired than the average industrial worker does in the worlds superpower economy for working?

Why not compare other things while you are at it?

How about the price of a pint of beer in a pub?

http://www.pintprice.com/region.php?/United_States/EUR.htm

http://www.pintprice.com/region.php?/Ireland/EUR.htm

Why not compare house prices or food prices or restaurant prices or clothes prices.

Our cost of living is far higher and so higher wages (and pensions) are needed

jimmmy

S.L.F wrote: »

I'm afraid your idea on what average is and my idea of what average is are poles apart.
Take for example a herd of sheep (999) with a dog in it.
On average there is no dog in it so you don't need to buy dog food.

Nobody mentioned dog food. We know how many human are employed in the public service and their average wage of 973 per week ; no need to talk about pets.

You still have not answered the two questions : Do you think it sustainable that our average public service pay is the highest in the known world , and does it not seem something is wrong when our public sector / service pensioners get paid more for being retired than the average industrial worker does in the worlds superpower economy for working? A yes or no will suffice for both questions.

N.B. the price of a pint of beer in lidl in Ireland is not that much more than in Germany : most of the extra can be attributed to tax, which goes on govt expenditure. Drop govt expenditure if you want the cost of living to fall.

asdasd

Take for example a herd of sheep (999) with a dog in it.
On average there is no dog in it so you don't need to buy dog food.

Riiiight. On average the dog population is non-zero, dude. So dogfood would be bought.

The Muppet

jimmmy wrote: »

Nobody mentioned dog food. We know how many human are employed in the public service and their average wage of 973 per week ; no need to talk about pets.

You still have not answered the two questions : Do you think it sustainable that our average public service pay is the highest in the known world , and does it not seem something is wrong when our public sector / service pensioners get paid more for being retired than the average industrial worker does in the worlds superpower economy for working? A yes or no will suffice for both questions.

N.B. the price of a pint of beer in lidl in Ireland is not that much more than in Germany : most of the extra can be attributed to tax, which goes on govt expenditure. Drop govt expenditure if you want the cost of living to fall.

Lots of questions but so few answers I'm afraid.

Basic Pensions /wages etc reflect what it costs to live in respective countries. The cost of living is lot less in the USA therfore the workers there don't need as much moey to keep a roof over their head and put food on the table and are contented with their wage. It's pretty basic economics really.

Riskymove

jimmmy wrote: »

does it not seem something is wrong when our public sector / service pensioners get paid more for being retired than the average industrial worker does in the worlds superpower economy for working?

I am still waiting for a response on what i posted above jimmmy

I also notice you are making these claims on other threads

you have no evidence or data to back up this position

jimmmy

The Muppet wrote: »

Basic Pensions /wages etc reflect what it costs to live in respective countries.

We are not discussing "basic" pensions etc. Ireland is a small, open economy, part of the EC , and without borders. As someone said recently, you are more likely to see a retired Irish public servant going on holiday to the States than an American worker on holiday here ....not surprising when you see the retired persons pension is more than the yanks wages. And as an auctioneer on this very board confirmed on another thread a few weeks ago, guess who bought most of the holiday homes

jimmmy

Riskymove wrote: »

I am still waiting for a response on what i posted above jimmmy

I also notice you are making these claims on other threads

you have no evidence or data to back up this position

Yes I did, I showed you the cso evidence on public sector pay, and reminder you what proportion retired public serbants are entitled to on completion of service, along with the 18 months tax free lump sum ( which some auctioneers call the "apartment for the offspring money" ).