Workers Walk Today

The Muppet

jimmmy wrote: »

We are not discussing "basic" pensions etc. Ireland is a small, open economy, part of the EC , and without borders. As someone said recently, you are more likely to see a retired Irish public servant going on holiday to the States than an American worker on holiday here ....not surprising when you see the retired persons pension is more than the yanks wages. And as an auctioneer on this very board confirmed on another thread a few weeks ago, guess who bought most of the holiday homes

An auctioneer no less, I'm impressed.


You sound surprised by that, do you know why so few American now holiday here, Could it be anything to do with the over inflated prices they would be forced to pay for everything I wonder? Perhaps the reason they don't buy holiday homes here is because housing has been so expensive, much more expensive than in their own country. Do you see where I'm going with this?

Riskymove

jimmmy wrote: »

Yes I did, I showed you the cso evidence on public sector pay, and reminder you what proportion retired public serbants are entitled to on completion of service, along with the 18 months tax free lump sum ( which some auctioneers call the "apartment for the offspring money" ).

I replied further

there is no statistical data for you to base your statements on a number of threads..we can all start making up figures to make arguments with but I think you'd agree we wouldn't achieve much

I think you should stop stating as fact things that are not

Count Dooku

Riskymove wrote: »

I replied further

there is no statistical data for you to base your statements on a number of threads..we can all start making up figures to make arguments with but I think you'd agree we wouldn't achieve much

I think you should stop stating as fact things that are not

We know that PS payroll bill is 20 Bn and we had 350,000 in public services
For some reason it gives me 57,142 average income for PS workers.
What I am doing wrong?

Riskymove

Count Dooku wrote: »

We know that PS payroll bill is 20 Bn and we had 350,000 in public services
For some reason it gives me 57,142 average income for PS workers.
What I am doing wrong?

1. you are using rounded figures €20bn, 350,000 etc not the exact ones that the CSO have

2. The pay bill includes more than just wages

3. the 350,000 or whatever includes all sorts of semi-state staff which are not always included

4. the CSO figure excludes the health sector

jimmmy

Riskymove wrote: »

3. the 350,000 or whatever includes all sorts of semi-state staff which are not always included

4. the CSO figure excludes the health sector

So the average should be higher than 57,142 average ?

There are a lot of allowances etc in the public sector. One wonders if all of these have been taken account of in the cso figures ?

Riskymove

jimmmy wrote: »

So the average should be higher than 57,142 average ?

is this another guesstimate?

I can't see how you can come up with that

There are a lot of allowances etc in the public sector. One wonders if all of these have been taken account of in the cso figures ?

did you ask them? or read the notes to the published figures?

of anyone else posting on these threads I would have expected you'd be certain of the facts around the magic figure

jimmmy

Riskymove wrote: »

is this another guesstimate?

No, it was a question, because that is why I put a question mark at the end. A question mark usually means its a question, not a guesstimate

Because as you say " the 350,000 or whatever includes all sorts of semi-state staff which are not always included", then the € 57,142 figure would be higher if the number of public servants was reduced below the 350,000.

Because as you say " the CSO figure excludes the health sector", then the € 57,142 figure would be higher if the HSE was included, as the HSE include many high paid people eg consultants etc.

Riskymove

jimmmy wrote: »

Because as you say " the 350,000 or whatever includes all sorts of semi-state staff which are not always included", then the € 57,142 figure would be higher if the number of public servants was reduced below the 350,000.

why would the figure get higher?

if the 350,000 is reduced by say 20,000 then you also lose the total amount of the salaries of those 20,000


edit: it could go up or down

Because as you say " the CSO figure excludes the health sector", then the € 57,142 figure would be higher if the HSE was included, as the HSE include many high paid people eg consultants etc.

again, while there are high paid staff in the health sector there are also those at the other end of the range so we really could not say wheter or not the average would be moved up or down

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

No, it was a question, because that is why I put a question mark at the end. A question mark usually means its a question, not a guesstimate

Because as you say " the 350,000 or whatever includes all sorts of semi-state staff which are not always included", then the € 57,142 figure would be higher if the number of public servants was reduced below the 350,000.

Because as you say " the CSO figure excludes the health sector", then the € 57,142 figure would be higher if the HSE was included, as the HSE include many high paid people eg consultants etc.

What this post amounts to is an admission that you don't actually know about public sector pay. Up to now, you have not been slow to make assertions, and pretending that cso.ie is a relevant url.

jimmmy

Count Dooku wrote: »

We know that PS payroll bill is 20 Bn and we had 350,000 in public services
For some reason it gives me 57,142 average income for PS workers.
What I am doing wrong?

Good point.
Riskymove thinks that if the number employed in the public service was
330,000 instead of 350,000, then "why would the figure (57,142 average ) get higher"? :D:Dlol lol

Sometimes I despair. Often people cannot grasp what "average" is, and it needs to be explained. Then someone cannot grap mathematical division and simple logic. It was someone else who wondered does the public service not have some entrance standards.

S.L.F

jimmmy wrote: »

Nobody mentioned dog food. We know how many human are employed in the public service and their average wage of 973 per week ; no need to talk about pets.

Once again jimmmy the public servants do not get €973 per week on average, the public sector do, on average

You don't really think that sheep dogs are pets do you?:eek::eek::eek:

It seems you know as much about farming as you do the public sector

jimmmy wrote: »

You still have not answered the two questions : Do you think it sustainable that our average public service pay is the highest in the known world , and does it not seem something is wrong when our public sector / service pensioners get paid more for being retired than the average industrial worker does in the worlds superpower economy for working? A yes or no will suffice for both questions.

First---What is the average public service pay?

It's not €973 as you have claimed.

Second what on earth do you think pensioners should get?

I believe the pension should be related to their wage, I'm not going to start talking about America because it has nothing to do with us here in Ireland.

Why not start comparing prices and taxes with Saudi Arabia?

There's as much relevance between American rates and Saudi rates as there is between any of them to Irish pensions.

jimmmy wrote: »

N.B. the price of a pint of beer in lidl in Ireland is not that much more than in Germany : most of the extra can be attributed to tax, which goes on govt expenditure.

Wow I didn't know Lidl have pubs now!!!

You learn something new every day.

Just to be clear I was referring to the price of a pint of beer in a pub in the States as compared to here

jimmmy wrote: »

Drop govt expenditure if you want the cost of living to fall.

Not just cost of living but also the stardart too and not just for public sector but for all workers and their families in Ireland.

I don't trust this govt of ours to manage the cutting process properly, instead of cutting the pension bill when they had a chance to last April they only targetted the Public service (pension Tax Levy) which in my view was wrong.

jimmmy

P. Breathnach wrote: »

What this post amounts to is an admission that you don't actually know about public sector pay. Up to now, you have not been slow to make assertions, and pretending that cso.ie is a relevant url.

I have always gone by what the CSO says is the average public sector wage, thinking they should know....that is what they are paid ( very well ) to do. They say it is 973 per week, as has been widely reported in the media. It was 966 p.w. some months ago, earlier this year. Fifty k is the round figure.

Riskymove

Count Dooku wrote: »

We know that PS payroll bill is 20 Bn and we had 350,000 in public services
For some reason it gives me 57,142 average income for PS workers.
What I am doing wrong?

to clarify some things

The CSO uses a figure of 259,300 FTEs for "the public sector excluding health"

this includes 52,900 in state bodies (including commercial)

they have a figure of 111,000 for health sector

370,400 total....which is a reduction of 3,300 on the same time last year



The average weekly wage for "public sector excluding health" is €973.09 an increase of 3.2% on last year...however...the last national pay deal increase was paid last year

this includes all overtime, allowances etc...this is notable because many sectors do not get overtime or only occassionaly

overtime can seriously skew figures...the CSO show a difference of €110 a week for guards if overtime is excluded

It also includes state bodies (including commercial) whose average wage is higher by around €100 a week



the average wage for the civil service, local authorites, primary education and defence forces are all LOWER than the overall average wage

jimmmy

S.L.F wrote: »

I don't trust this govt of ours to manage the cutting process properly, instead of cutting the pension bill when they had a chance to last April they only targetted the Public service (pension Tax Levy) which in my view was wrong.

I agree with you there, as the p.s. pensioners typically have their mortgage paid, kids reared etc, and could afford to take a cut more so than many of the young lower paid public servants with mortgages, kids, unemployed partner etc etc.

Riskymove

jimmmy wrote: »

Good point.
Riskymove thinks that if the number employed in the public service was
330,000 instead of 350,000, then "why would the figure (57,142 average ) get higher"? :D:Dlol lol

Sometimes I despair. Often people cannot grasp what "average" is, and it needs to be explained. Then someone cannot grap mathematical division and simple logic. It was someone else who wondered does the public service not have some entrance standards.

whats all this about?

from the person giving out about "playing the man" and "nasty posts"???


jimmmy

I think it is you who cannot grasp the idea

if you have an average wage for a group of 350,000

and you remove 20,000 people the new average can be the same, lower or higher the average wage for 350,000

this is because the total aggregated wages for the 350,000 will be higher than the total for 330,000

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

I have always gone by what the CSO says is the average public sector wage, thinking they should know....that is what they are paid ( very well ) to do. They say it is 973 per week, as has been widely reported in the media. It was 966 p.w. some months ago, earlier this year. Fifty k is the round figure.

Kindly give an url that supports what you say.

jimmmy

Riskymove wrote: »

The CSO uses a figure of 259,300 FTEs for "the public sector excluding health"

this includes 52,900 in state bodies (including commercial)

they have a figure of 111,000 for health sector

370,400 total....which is a reduction of 3,300 on the same time last year



The average weekly wage for "public sector excluding health" is €973.09 an increase of 3.2% on last year...however...the last national pay deal increase was paid last year

Going by those figures, there are 317,500 in the public sector excluding commercial bodies . Assuming the commwercial bodires are self financing overall, or at least not a drain on the taxpayer, Count Dooku 's point that the PS payroll bill is 20 Bn divided by 317,500 gives € 62,992 average income for PS workers.
The usual excuse about the 20 billion is that not all of it goes on payroll. I am sure none of Fas's one billion a year budget ever went on hairdressers @ 300 a time in Florida, or first class flights either.;)

jimmmy

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Kindly give an url that supports what you say.

I already did for you, on several occassions , over the months. Not again for something so widely known and acknowledged in every media. Even Riskymove, ( who I seldom agree with but whom I respect + is fair enough ) only a few posts ago ( see his post no. 164 on this very thread ) , wrote "The average weekly wage for "public sector excluding health" is €973.09 an increase of 3.2% on last year...however...the last national pay deal increase was paid last year"

Riskymove

jimmmy wrote: »

.
The usual excuse about the 20 billion is that not all of it goes on payroll.

its not an excuse jimmmy , its fact

if you want to work out the average wage you need to know the total of the pay of the 317,500 you are quoting, not some higher figure just because you like it

jimmmy

Riskymove wrote: »

if you have an average wage for a group of 350,000

and you remove 20,000 people the new average can be the same, lower or higher the average wage for 350,000

Count Dooku 's point was that the PS payroll bill is 20 Bn.

divided by your suggested ( in one post ) number of 330,000 instead of 350,000, this gives a higher average wage than dividing the 20 billion by 350,000, as Count D. did.

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

I already did for you, on several occassions , over the months...

Then link me to one of the posts where you did -- because I do not believe you.

Riskymove

jimmmy wrote: »

Count Dooku 's point was that the PS payroll bill is 20 Bn.

divided by your suggested ( in one post ) number of 330,000 instead of 350,000, this gives a higher average wage than dividing the 20 billion by 350,000, as Count D. did.

fine...so we were talking about 2 different things then...so we were both right:pac:

jimmmy

Riskymove wrote: »

its not an excuse jimmmy , its fact

if you want to work out the average wage you need to know the total of the pay of the 317,500 you are quoting, not some higher figure just because you like it

I know its a fact that not all of the 20 billion is payroll. Some must be expenses etc. 317,500 people by average "CSO declared " public sector wage totals 15.87 billion....so that leaves over 4 billion for what exactly ?
Any hairdressers @ 300 a time in Florida, or first class flights , or was the FAS billion a year budget different ? lol

jimmmy

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Then link me to one of the posts where you did -- because I do not believe you.

I cannot be bothered trawling through over 200 posts to see where I linked you to a fact so well known ( average public sector wage ) that Riskymove stated it on post no. 164 of this very thread . Check the CSO for yourself. www.cso.ie. If you think its not 973 p.w. then all the media ( RTE etc ) have been wrong as well.

Riskymove

jimmmy wrote: »

....so that leaves over 4 billion for what exactly ?

pensions anyway I assume

employers PRSI?

anything else likely?

you should also note that the bill has been reduced by over €2bn already so it'll be around €18bn before any changes from this budget

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

I know its a fact that not all of the 20 billion is payroll. Some must be expenses etc. 317,500 people by average "CSO declared " public sector wage totals 15.87 billion....so that leaves over 4 billion for what exactly ?
Any hairdressers @ 300 a time in Florida, or first class flights , or was the FAS billion a year budget different ? lol

I suggest that you cut out the efforts at comedy and the back-of-an-envelope processing of "data" pulled out of nowhere. Cite evidence.

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

I cannot be bothered trawling through over 200 posts to see where I linked you to a fact so well known ( average public sector wage ) that Riskymove stated it on post no. 164 of this very thread . Check the CSO for yourself. www.cso.ie. If you think its not 973 p.w. then all the media ( RTE etc ) have been wrong as well.

Standard jimmmy response to a request for evidence. You habitually fail to back your posts up, and suggest that other people should do it for you.

I believe it is because you are unable to produce the evidence.

jimmmy

Riskymove wrote: »

pensions anyway I assume

employers PRSI?

anything else likely?

I think the other government overheads come from outside this often quoted 20 billion. eg heat + light in public buildings etc. Perhaps consultancy services ...are they paid from within the 20 billion ?
With statistics, its hard to know. For example keyholders of government buildings get approx 20 euro a week for the extra responsibility...there are lots of different allowances....are they all reflected in the 973 p.w. figure ?
With a budget of 20 billion, I am sure there is a lot of room for hidden kickbacks + expenses etc, allowances etc, which the ordinary person does not know about . ( this can apply in the private sector too of course ).

jimmmy

Riskymove wrote: »

The average weekly wage for "public sector excluding health" is €973.09 an increase of 3.2% on last year

Maybe you would be so kind as to have a link for that as Mr. Breathnach is pestering me for it, even though I gave it to him before, and even though it is something ( I just remember the € 973 bit ....it used to be € 966 some months ago ) often repeated on the national airwaves, broadsheet media etc.

Riskymove

jimmmy wrote: »

I think the other government overheads come from outside this often quoted 20 billion. eg heat + light in public buildings etc.

I agree

Perhaps consultancy services ...are they paid from within the 20 billion ?

I dont think so

...there are lots of different allowances....are they all reflected in the 973 p.w. figure ?

according to the CSO, yes

With a budget of 20 billion, I am sure there is a lot of room for hidden kickbacks + expenses etc, allowances etc, which the ordinary person does not know about . ( this can apply in the private sector too of course )

but its a budget with published, voted upon figures

its not that easy