Workers Walk Today

Riskymove

it is not easy to breakdown the €20bn figure


but by looking at some figures I can guess at a few figures in relation to pensioners and pension costs......whats it worth to ya jimmmy?

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

Maybe you would be so kind as to have a link for that as Mr. Breathnach is pestering me for it, even though I gave it to him before, and even though it is something ( I just remember the € 973 bit ....it used to be € 966 some months ago ) often repeated on the national airwaves, broadsheet media etc.

Is that because you are unable to provide a link?

Riskymove

Maybe you would be so kind as to have a link for that

ok


http://www.cso.ie/releasespublications/documents/earnings/current/psempearn.pdf

jimmmy

Riskymove wrote: »

it is not easy to breakdown the €20bn figure


but by looking at some figures I can guess at a few figures in relation to pensioners and pension costs......whats it worth to ya jimmmy?

LOL....It would be interesting to break down the public sector pensions bill by the number receiving them....but I cannot afford to pay for this info...sorry:D

jimmmy

Riskymove wrote: »

ok


http://www.cso.ie/releasespublications/documents/earnings/current/psempearn.pdf

Thank you. I am wondering best now how to save that link next time I am asked for it.

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

Thank you. I am wondering best now how to save that link next time I am asked for it.

Do that, as you have an obligation to back up your claims.

I suggest that you actually read the stuff, and what is covered by it. Then you might give a slightly better impression that you actually know what you are talking about. For example:

The public sector is defined for the purposes of the series in accordance with criteria in the study “Information on public sector employment and manpower” published by the Institute of Public Administration. The sectors covered are:
Civil Service;
Defence forces;
Garda Síochána;
Local authorities;
Education (excluding private institutions);
Semi-State bodies (excluding their subsidiary companies).

Riskymove

jimmmy wrote: »

LOL....It would be interesting to break down the public sector pensions bill by the number receiving them....but I cannot afford to pay for this info...sorry:D

its not as straightforward as I thought and a bit of investigation is required:rolleyes:


Just for Clarification: this figures are based on 2009 Estimates


in some cases the spend on lump sum and pensions are aggregated so any average figure would not be exact...though I suppose it means the average pension would be lower than what I can work out

so......as inaccurate as it sounds

average pension for civil servant is somewhere less than €25,000

for a garda is somewhere less than €31,000

and lets just say I wouldnt mind being on a retired garda commissioner's pension

so jimmmy, please dont go around saying average garda pension is €31k or whatever as it wont be accurate, it will in fact be less than that...but cannot be more than that

jimmmy

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Do that, as you have an obligation to back up your claims.

Trouble is, I get fed up providing the same link to you, for information generally in the public domain + which is accepted by everyone.

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I suggest that you actually read the stuff,

I have actually read the stuff.

jimmmy

Riskymove wrote: »

its not as straightforward as I thought and a bit of investigation is required:rolleyes:

in some cases the spend on lump sum and pensions are aggregated so any average figure would not be exact...though I suppose it means the average pension would be lower than what I can work out

so......as inaccurate as it sounds

average pension for civil servant is somewhere less than €25,000

for a garda is somewhere less than €31,000

I wonder what about the old age pension ...is it in addition to your figures ?

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

... I have actually read the stuff.

This post suggests to me that if you have read it, you don't understand it: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=62958709&postcount=52

Riskymove

jimmmy wrote: »

I wonder what about the old age pension ...is it in addition to your figures ?

the contributory OAP is a welfare scheme and would be included there, not in the public pay bill

current public sevice pensioners would not be in reciept of the OAP anyway as class A PRSI was only introduced in 1995

people retiring in the future who started after 1995 will get the OAP but NOT in addition to the public pension which is reduced by the relevant amount

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

I wonder what about the old age pension ...is it in addition to your figures ?

Jaysus! No public servant who is currently retired on full pension is in receipt of an old age pension. It will be years before the new arrangements, introduced in 1995, will take effect. And then it will not be in addition to, but in part-substitution of, the current arrangements.

jimmmy

Riskymove wrote: »

average pension for civil servant is somewhere less than €25,000

for a garda is somewhere less than €31,000

Not including the old age pension, which is worth over 10 k a year.

Gardai for example are entitled to 50% of their finishing pay on completion of service ( 30 years ). Average Garda pay across all ages / grades is 60k, so you would expect finishing pay to be comfortably above that, due to age, promotion etc. Plus they get 18 months tax free lump sum at retirement.

Riskymove

Riskymove wrote: »

the contributory OAP is a welfare scheme and would be included there, not in the public pay bill

current public sevice pensioners would not be in reciept of the OAP anyway as class A PRSI was only introduced in 1995

people retiring in the future who started after 1995 will get the OAP but NOT in addition to the public pension which is reduced by the relevant amount

therefore, to be clear

IF for an example average pension in public sector is €25,000

IF it were now 2035.........the OAP would be €11,000 and the state pension €14,000....

Riskymove

jimmmy wrote: »

Not including the old age pension, which is worth over 10 k a year.

this is a joke....right?

3 posts and you still say this?

Gardai for example are entitled to 50% of their finishing pay on completion of service ( 30 years ). Average Garga pay across all ages / grades is 60k, so you would expect finishing pay to be comfortably above that, due to ge, promotion etc. Plus they get 18 months tax free lump sum at retirement.

i have just told you what the figure I worked out is for a garda (not across all grades but for a garda)...it includes payments for lump sums so therefore the actual pension will be lower than the €31k figure

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

Not including the old age pension, which is worth over 10 k a year...

Of course it doesn't include it: they don't get it.

Riskymove

Average Garga pay across all ages / grades is 60k

that includes overtime which is not pensionable

so you would expect finishing pay to be comfortably above that, due to ge, promotion etc.

you have used this idea before but I have to say i disagree.....most of the public service is at the bottom not the top

there are around 8,000 garda pensioners

around 4,000 or half.....retired as guards...no promotions


average pay is, once agian just a statistic ...it does not mean people will ever actually earn that

or that they will earn more than it over time

jimmmy

Riskymove wrote: »

i have just told you what the figure I worked out is for a garda (not across all grades but for a garda)...it includes payments for lump sums so therefore the actual pension will be lower than the €31k figure

How did you "work out " your figure of less than 31k ? I have already explained to you how Gardai , like all public servants, are entitled to 50% of their finishing pay on completion of service. Average Garga pay across all ages / grades is 60k, so you would expect finishing pay to be comfortably above that, due to ge, promotion etc. Plus like all public servants they get 18 months tax free lump sum at retirement.( nicknamed by auctioneers in better times "the money towards apartment for offspring / holiday home" money )

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

How did you "work out " your figure of less than 31k ? I have already explained to you how Gardai , like all public servants, are entitled to 50% of their finishing pay on completion of service. Average Garga pay across all ages / grades is 60k, so you would expect finishing pay to be comfortably above that, due to ge, promotion etc. Plus like all public servants they get 18 months tax free lump sum at retirement.( nicknamed by auctioneers in better times "the money towards apartment for offspring / holiday home" money )

Riskymove just explained it to you.

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

jimmmy

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Riskymove just explained it to you.

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

just saw his post now. No need to be rude.

jimmmy

Riskymove wrote: »

average pay is, once agian just a statistic ...it does not mean people will ever actually earn that

It does not mean everyone will actually earn that. It is average pay. Ignoring the 18 months tax free lump sum which they also get, given pension is 50% of finishing pay , and average pay is 60 grand across all grades, the pension of those who have completed their service ( 30 years ) must be at least 30k. It would be 30 k if everyone in the Gardai was paid the same , irrespective of age, promotion etc.

I take your point re overtime etc : I know a lot of Gardai do overtime + this is not factored in to pension payments.
What could be bringing your figure lower is pensions paid to people who have "retired early" from service. eg if someone in the Gardai leaves after 10 years I understand they only get a third of their pension, and this at retirent age. Correct me if I am wrong.


Do not forget pension is linked to increases in pay. eg if a Guard retired 15 years ago onwhen his salary was say 30 k, he got a pension of 15k, but he has kept getting increases over the past 15 years : if the equivalent grade is getting 70k a year now, his pension is 35k is it not, in 2009.

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

just saw his post now. No need to be rude.

Have you seen this post: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=62959487&postcount=191 ? It refers to this inaccurate post by you: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=62958709&postcount=52. Do you propose to deal with it, or are you playing the part of one who is blind because he will not see? Is it rude of me to ask?

jimmmy

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Have you seen this post: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=62959487&postcount=191 ? It refers to this inaccurate post by you: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=62958709&postcount=52. Do you propose to deal with it

There was nothing inaccurate with either post. I was clarifying something for another poster who wrote "Once you understand that averages are just that, averages, and are open to inaccuracy/deviation...."etc I accept the c.s.o. statistic on average public sector pay. You ask me for thiat link every few weeks, and you have been given it again. Are you ever happy? To avoid you looking for the cso link in a few days time again, I must look into putting it at the bottom of each post;)

jimmmy

done ! Hope you like it Mr. Breathnach, as you have asked me on dozens of occassions for that link. Even when Riskymove posted the statistic, you did not believe it, so now you can click on the link as often as you want, and I will not have to search for it every few weeks for you.;)

S.L.F

jimmmy wrote: »

Perhaps consultancy services ...are they paid from within the 20 billion?

Riskymove wrote: »

I dont think so

Just had a look through the CSO report and I came across this

Special advisors, etc. in Ministers’ Offices are included;

You don't think the CSO included the consultants that were paid up to and exceeding €200,000 in the report?

jimmmy

There could so many consultants who is to know are all the consultants fees together under one heading ?
Like for example the hairdressing bill in Florida- what expense was that filed under in FAS before it was unearthed ?

jimmmy

Riskymove wrote: »

ok


http://www.cso.ie/releasespublications/documents/earnings/current/psempearn.pdf

wonder why the link does not work on a signature ?

Riskymove

S.L.F wrote: »

You don't think the CSO included the consultants that were paid up to and exceeding €200,000 in the report?

no...special advisers are staff that Ministers appoint to work for them directly...they are not consultants

There could so many consultants who is to know are all the consultants fees together under one heading

each organisation should have a 'subhead' for consultancy fees

average pay is 60 grand across all grades, the pension of those who have completed their service ( 30 years ) must be at least 30k

not at all.....if the average pension was 30k then there would be people who earned less than it and more than it so therefore there is no 'must'

look jimmmy, that statement has no basis for validity...I've tried a couple of times to explain why but you just keep going on so I dont see any point going on about it.

jimmmy

Riskymove wrote: »

if the average pension was 30k then there would be people who earned less than it and more than it so therefore there is no 'must'

What you are saying is if an average is x it includes higher + lower values ! Then you say there is no must !


I have already explained to you that Gardai get 50% of their finishing salary ( plus the tax free lump sum of 18 months salary ) on retirement at completion of service. Given average pay in the Gardai - across all personnell + grades - is 60 k, you know as well as I do that finishing salary is higher. Therefore your figure for garda pension cannot be accurate, and I ask to to back up your statement with proof or a link, instead of plucking a figure out of the air which is inconsistent with facts and logic.

I have already explained to you how if you have a fixed number ( eg the 20 billion payroll budget ) and you lower the figure you divide it by ( eg 330,000 public servants instead of 350,000 ), you get a higher earning per public servant ! Have you understood this yet ?

Nodin

Were public servants and their pay and conditions also responsible for the demise of the Dinosaurs, I wonder......