Why are we so angry???

Darragh29

I'm just going to throw this out there to see what other folks think of this view that I have....

Lately we are all furious, private sector is furious with the public sector, the public sector is furious with the private sector and the government, everyone is furious with everyone to be honest...

Just back in the Celtic Tiger, we noticed that people were more hostile and angry, and all it look was a small mistake or a chance turn of events to suffer the wrath of someone at the end of the phone or in person, the anger and fury was always there just below the surface, all it look was a small event to stratch the surface and out came the fury and the venom.

I'm sure we've all had the customer who rages furiously at you on the phone or in person over what in reality was probably a relatively minor issue at the time...

So I know I can say from my own experience that in the boom times, people were very angry and now we are in a recession and people are very angry.

My only question is, what might have a nation of people so utterly angry and full of rage??? And it isn't the recession, we were angry, agitated and cranky before we ever had to deal with a recession???

FlutterinBantam

Greed Darragh, that's what it was, pure greed.

There was plenty of dosh going around and people with no education and very little skill were coining it,driving around in big 4WDs, we've all seen them.Didn't give a bollox about anyone. Take it or leave it.

Others went mad on property, the house in Spain/Portugal/Bulgaria .

You had pimply faced dudes swanning around in Beemers in IT finance or Morketing, again would knock you down if you stepped out in front of them.

You had brikkies/plumbers/roofers /slaters with so much money they got lazy and arrogant,arm and a leg for the smallest job, most likely they would laugh in your face at a small job.

In short, we got arrogant,boorish, we didn't give a fook as we has dosh for the 5th break of the year to Barcelona to have a "blast"

We became Chavs, Darragh, and as we all know Chavs tend to be a very angry and intolerant bunch of people.

Scofflaw

We're angry because we were "fooled" - and like most people who get fooled, we know, but won't admit, that we did most of the work of taking ourselves in. At least, that's the smarter ones - the stupid ones haven't even got that far, but seem to genuinely believe they were/are entitled to something they're now losing.

I suspect that if you ask around, you'll find those who weren't fooled aren't particularly angry. Disappointed, concerned, and a little frustrated that because people have decided to blame everyone but themselves they'll do exactly the same thing again at the next opportunity, but not really angry.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Liam Byrne

In some cases, myself included, we're "angry" because we didn't buy in to the fiasco and lived within our means, and now we're being hammered by additional taxes and levies and god-knows-what in order to bail out the banks who fuelled it and the people who did get greedy.

And - to date - no-one has been jailed or held responsible (unlike America and the U.K.) and in the meantime those who presided over it get €600,000 payoffs and €700,000 unvouched expenses instead of being fired in disgrace.

If you or I did that we'd be jailed and fined and have to pay it back.

yoshytoshy

I haven't seen as much anger around lately ,more contemplation maybe.

Villain

We are a nation of begrudgers we all thought we should have what others have.

jimmmy

Darragh29 wrote: »

the public sector is furious with the private sector and the government

Why , in your experience , is the public sector furious with the private sector ? I never came across any public sector people like that, who blamed 1,800,000 people who pay money to the government ( as opposed to getting paid by the govt ). Sure there are some greedy people in the private sector, but for the highest paid public sector in the known world to be furious with the "private sector" when it was public sector people largely responsible for the mess ( the govt, the regulator, the central bank etc ). Most of the private sector worked within the law and did not cause the mess.

waffleman

We're angry now that the stable door is lying open, the horse has bolted and is probably half way to Australia still nothing substantial is being done about the mess left behind.

Our government is still pandering to their cronies and look more and more like an exclusive club of poster boys for nepotism and ineptitude with every passing day - great when times are good - frozen in a crisis.

Dannyboy83

All of what Liam Byrne said.

And the opportunity cost. We have our own island and we could have a great state, but we continue to forfeit it, usually at the benefit of those we elect.

And the inexorable 'Irishness' and 'sher, it'll do -ness'. Kind of like Saipan on a national scale.

SkepticOne

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Others went mad on property, the house in Spain/Portugal/Bulgaria .

I don't know anyone who did those things who is angry. Scared maybe.

Pedro K

Liam Byrne wrote: »

In some cases, myself included, we're "angry" because we didn't buy in to the fiasco and lived within our means, and now we're being hammered by additional taxes and levies and god-knows-what in order to bail out the banks who fuelled it and the people who did get greedy.

And - to date - no-one has been jailed or held responsible (unlike America and the U.K.) and in the meantime those who presided over it get €600,000 payoffs and €700,000 unvouched expenses instead of being fired in disgrace.

If you or I did that we'd be jailed and fined and have to pay it back.

nail on the head, at least for me anyway.

Rantan

hi I'm Rantan and I'm angry!! Very angry. Here's my reason - I'm angry because despite being what i consider to be anyway, a hard and concientious worker, never ostentatious (could never afford it)or chav or boorish like many others, I still find myself facing unemployment. I am angry with the government coz they are responsible for leading us into this situation with no get out, I am angry coz my 13 year old son faces an uncertain future, he is inteligent and bright and my parents and me and his mother have worked hard to bring him up as best we could and I am frightened for his future and that makes me angry. Anger in all situations is not a bad thing, in those outlined in previous posts yes it is, but couldn;t it also be a great motivator for change and that is not a bad thing, is it??

Scofflaw

Rantan wrote: »

hi I'm Rantan and I'm angry!! Very angry. Here's my reason - I'm angry because despite being what i consider to be anyway, a hard and concientious worker, never ostentatious (could never afford it)or chav or boorish like many others, I still find myself facing unemployment. I am angry with the government coz they are responsible for leading us into this situation with no get out, I am angry coz my 13 year old son faces an uncertain future, he is inteligent and bright and my parents and me and his mother have worked hard to bring him up as best we could and I am frightened for his future and that makes me angry. Anger in all situations is not a bad thing, in those outlined in previous posts yes it is, but couldn;t it also be a great motivator for change and that is not a bad thing, is it??

I think I'd have to say to that that despite being a hard and conscientious worker myself, I've been made redundant or faced the closure of my business more than once. Nobody owes me a living purely for being a hard and conscientious worker, although I'm more likely to make a living by being so.

As to an uncertain future - all of us face that all the time, the self-employed perhaps a little more than anyone else, and right now every child on the planet faces a seriously uncertain future. Again, nobody is owed a certain future - one can only work towards one.

Having said that, I can understand being angry if one sees that nothing is being done - but a lot more is being done about the financial crisis than is being done on far more serious long-term issues like climate change.

cordially,
Scofflaw

FlutterinBantam

SkepticOne wrote: »

I don't know anyone who did those things who is angry. Scared maybe.

A lot of them were marching today brother.:cool:

doc_17

The complete awfulness of our public representatives. or maybe just the weather?

Rantan

Scofflaw wrote: »

I think I'd have to say to that that despite being a hard and conscientious worker myself, I've been made redundant or faced the closure of my business more than once. Nobody owes me a living purely for being a hard and conscientious worker, although I'm more likely to make a living by being so.

As to an uncertain future - all of us face that all the time, the self-employed perhaps a little more than anyone else, and right now every child on the planet faces a seriously uncertain future. Again, nobody is owed a certain future - one can only work towards one.

Having said that, I can understand being angry if one sees that nothing is being done - but a lot more is being done about the financial crisis than is being done on far more serious long-term issues like climate change.

cordially,
Scofflaw

I do not think I am owed anything from anyone, how dare you(anger again)!
I am owed the wage I get for the work I do, thats all.
The right to work has been taken from me and countless others so i am angry. I think thats kind of natural. I lived through uncertainty before and saw my fathers company collapse twice, I do not think I should be pandered to or am priviliged in any way. As a society we haven;t learned any lessons from previous hard times and are now lagging behind other nations, i think thats reason enough to be a little peeved at least.

Diarmuid

Rantan wrote: »

I do not think I am owed anything from anyone, how dare you(anger again)!
I am owed the wage I get for the work I do, thats all.
The right to work has been taken from me

I don't follow? The right to work has not been taken from you. You can go out tomorrow and set up a company and sell your services/goods. That hasn't changed.

Zambia

I think what Rantan is getting and I will happily be corrected if I am wrong is.

Thoughout the Boom there was no forethought given by Irish leaders of the horrible game of Jenga they called an Economic Plan. Sure they did keep the good times rolling for an extra few years but it was at the expense of the irish middle and working class.

The right to work I presume is keeping the economy on an even keel so that Unemployment does not change from 0% to 13%(I think) in the space of 2 years.

I for one am not angry. Never was.

Rantan

Diarmuid wrote: »

I don't follow? The right to work has not been taken from you. You can go out tomorrow and set up a company and sell your services/goods. That hasn't changed.

How can you say that?? I am hopeful that eventually something will turn up, anything. However there is a very strong chance that I wont get work and possibly for some time. I would call that having the right to work taken from me, by market forces nothing else, maybe I'm wrong. And I am considering setting up a business, coz its probably the only option. But is it really as easy as going out tomorrow and having a business up and running over night?? Established, financed, registered etc etc I've never done it before, that quick - really??

contraflow

I have to lay the blame for our increased anger at coffee's door. During the boom years we switched from a nation of tea drinkers to coffee drinkers. The concentrated caffeine in coffee instils an unhealthy sense of urgency in your average Irishman, a state which we are unaccustomed to, given our long dalliance with coffee’s milder cousin tea. One of the many benefits of this recession is the plague of coffee dens which infest our towns and cities will inevitably be culled.

Aren’t we all quicker to use our car horns when the old lady in front indicates left and then turns right or bawl down the phone at 3 mobile’s impenetrable representative in Mumbai after a double espresso? Shamefully, I think the answer is yes.
Once the caffeine quotient per capita returns to pre-boom levels I predict anger will cease to rear its ugly head and the magnificent Irish will return to a state of irreverent indifference... where we belong... where we are comfortable... dare I say it in these barren times, but could we be on the cusp of a glorious uncaffeinated future where the outrages of phone and car rage are a thing of the past.
Dare to dream brother and sisters... DARE TO DREAM!!!!!

Rantan

contraflow wrote: »

I have to lay the blame for our increased anger at coffee's door. During the boom years we switched from a nation of tea drinkers to coffee drinkers. The concentrated caffeine in coffee instils an unhealthy sense of urgency in your average Irishman, a state which we are unaccustomed to, given our long dalliance with coffee’s milder cousin tea. One of the many benefits of this recession is the plague of coffee dens which infest our towns and cities will inevitably be culled.

Aren’t we all quicker to use our car horns when the old lady in front indicates left and then turns right or bawl down the phone at 3 mobile’s impenetrable representative in Mumbai after a double espresso? Shamefully, I think the answer is yes.
Once the caffeine quotient per capita returns to pre-boom levels I predict anger will cease to rear its ugly head and the magnificent Irish will return to a state of irreverent indifference... where we belong... where we are comfortable... dare I say it in these barren times, but could we be on the cusp of a glorious uncaffeinated future where the outrages of phone and car rage are a thing of the past.
Dare to dream brother and sisters... DARE TO DREAM!!!!!

I have seen the light brother!!
studying for exam in the morning at the moment, went to cupboard for coffee, jar empty, lead to stampy feet and more anger, felt hard done by making a mug of hot chocolate for the first time in a few years but lo and behold - what a joy, had forgotten the pleasure of its silky, milky loveliness!!

Diarmuid

Rantan wrote: »

I would call that having the right to work taken from me, by market forces nothing else, maybe I'm wrong.

I think the original point (and I would agree) is looking at the equation from the other side. You say that you have the "right to work". That implies that someone else has a duty to pay you something, regardless of what you do. I don't believe that is fair. I think you have the right to work, but unless someone is prepared to pay you for that work, then you cannot expect to receive recompense.

Rantan wrote: »

And I am considering setting up a business, coz its probably the only option. But is it really as easy as going out tomorrow and having a business up and running over night?? Established, financed, registered etc etc I've never done it before, that quick - really??

Setting up a business in Ireland as a legal entity is very easy to do, one of the easiest in the world. Selling your self and making money, probably not.

Rantan

Diarmuid wrote: »

I think the original point (and I would agree) is looking at the equation from the other side. You say that you have the "right to work". That implies that someone else has a duty to pay you something, regardless of what you do. I don't believe that is fair. I think you have the right to work, but unless someone is prepared to pay you for that work, then you cannot expect to receive recompense.

Setting up a business in Ireland as a legal entity is very easy to do, one of the easiest in the world. Selling your self and making money, probably not.

If I enter into a contract with someone(employer) to provide a service(my labour) they do have a duty to pay for the service provided. That's law not my opinion.

Scofflaw

Rantan wrote: »

If I enter into a contract with someone(employer) to provide a service(my labour) they do have a duty to pay for the service provided. That's law not my opinion.

Certainly that's the case. However, they don't have any duty to maintain anyone in employment if they cannot afford to do so, nor to keep their salary at the originally agreed level if they cannot afford to do so (aside from the contractual obligation if that exists). Being human, they would probably prefer to do so, but that's not the same thing as them having an obligation or you having a right.

To put it another way, while you have the right to seek work, you don't have the right to either a guaranteed job, or any particular work. Nobody does - at least not the way we have things set up, although it would undoubtedly be possible to make a job for everyone, for life, a basic right (it's been done before, and generally hasn't worked out all that well, although a large part of the failure of it can be attributed to competition from market economies).

Nor is the government contractually or legally obliged to provide everyone with a job. We expect them to do their best to make that happen, and I agree with you that they've failed to do so - as has nearly every other government. However, we voted them in, and we "voted for" the shift of the tax burden from income to property and the financial deregulation that our elected governments have overseen over the last dozen years, which was a major contributor to our high GDP growth rates, and is now a major contributor to our collapse. So when we're pointing fingers, we'll need at least one mirror.

I don't recall thinking that work was something I was entitled to when I graduated in the late Eighties - and certainly not a job in Ireland!

cordially,
Scofflaw

Alright

Liam Byrne wrote: »

In some cases, myself included, we're "angry" because we didn't buy in to the fiasco and lived within our means, and now we're being hammered by additional taxes and levies and god-knows-what in order to bail out the banks who fuelled it and the people who did get greedy.

And - to date - no-one has been jailed or held responsible (unlike America and the U.K.) and in the meantime those who presided over it get €600,000 payoffs and €700,000 unvouched expenses instead of being fired in disgrace.

If you or I did that we'd be jailed and fined and have to pay it back.

I totally agree!

I'm not sure if I'm annoyed or frustrated with the current situation? I remember a Junior Cert business teacher telling us that Countries in good times should save and put a bit aside and then in leaner times should spend their way out of a recession. I think the example used was the NY and London Undergrounds, both were built or extended during tough times.

I think the Celtic Tiger years showed us that Ireland could be great not just good or ‘grand’. We're still a, relatively, young country and we never had significant amounts of disposable money so we didn't know how to behave ourselves so instead of being prudent greed set in. Although I do think we, the people of Ireland, are still great and we will recover from this down turn but we must learn from it!

I guess I am a bit angry that the likes of Anglo was propped up & that there was/is so much waste of tax payers money. We live in a capitalist society so surely if an organisation or company has huge debts that cannot be repaid then they end up bankrupt not bailed out?

I’m stopping here in case it turns into even more or a rant

population

Diarmuid wrote: »

I don't follow? The right to work has not been taken from you. You can go out tomorrow and set up a company and sell your services/goods. That hasn't changed.

Although I am fully in support of free enterprise and feel it should be encouraged to the hilt, the fact remains that not everybody wants to, or is indeed capable of running their own business. Therefore I find that it is a real 'hands off' approach to unemployment when people say "set up a company".

population

contraflow wrote: »

I have to lay the blame for our increased anger at coffee's door. During the boom years we switched from a nation of tea drinkers to coffee drinkers. The concentrated caffeine in coffee instils an unhealthy sense of urgency in your average Irishman, a state which we are unaccustomed to, given our long dalliance with coffee’s milder cousin tea. One of the many benefits of this recession is the plague of coffee dens which infest our towns and cities will inevitably be culled.

Aren’t we all quicker to use our car horns when the old lady in front indicates left and then turns right or bawl down the phone at 3 mobile’s impenetrable representative in Mumbai after a double espresso? Shamefully, I think the answer is yes.
Once the caffeine quotient per capita returns to pre-boom levels I predict anger will cease to rear its ugly head and the magnificent Irish will return to a state of irreverent indifference... where we belong... where we are comfortable... dare I say it in these barren times, but could we be on the cusp of a glorious uncaffeinated future where the outrages of phone and car rage are a thing of the past.
Dare to dream brother and sisters... DARE TO DREAM!!!!!

But there is more caffeine in tea:D

diverdriver

I'm occasionally angry, angry at Fianna Fail, angry at the people who voted them in again and again. Angry that all the good we had was flushed down a building site portaloo. Angry for the people younger than me who had never experience high unemployment, high taxes and low expectations who now have to face it for the first time.

But mostly I'm worried, worried that the Celtic Tiger was an aberration that our temporary elevation to ordinary liberal, comfortably off, first world, western country was just that, temporary and we'll revert to a second world economy with third world attitudes.

Worried that the Ireland I grew up in with it's high unemployment, low expectations, high emigration and a rich clique running everything to suit themselves with the help of their politician friends is actually our normal state of affairs. In fact that will be the case. When we 'return to economic growth' let's have no illusions, unemployment will remain high, emigration is back to stay. The Celtic Tiger is dead and stuffed.

Both my wife and I have for the first time ever had serious discussions about emigrating. We have two sons. We need to consider their future. We don't want them to have same experiences we had. Lack of opportunity and ironically emigration.

ei.sdraob

Darragh29 wrote: »

My only question is, what might have a nation of people so utterly angry and full of rage??? And it isn't the recession, we were angry, agitated and cranky before we ever had to deal with a recession???

now that the tide has left, all the rubbish and waste (FAS ahem ahem) is surfacing up for all to see

jimmmy

Alright wrote: »

I guess I am a bit angry that the likes of Anglo was propped up & that there was/is so much waste of tax payers money.

Anglo and the other Banks owed so much money to foreign institutions the ECB would not lend us the 25 billion a year if they were allowed fail. As it was the govt had enough of a red face in Europe for not doing its job / seeing the regulator + Central bank doing its job properly.;)

Fighting Irish

The only thing that angers me are the people who don't know the unwritten rules of life(common sense)