Upgrading/adding home alarm sensors: legal?

Feckless Rogue

From the forum guidelines I see that:

only licensed PSA installers can certify an Intruder Alarm

So I take that to mean that as a layperson I can't go and install an alarm in someone's property.

However, I'd love to get clear on the legal aspects of upgrading my pre-existing system (specifically, swap out a PIR, add a wireless panic button and hook up a GSM dialler). I've contacted my building and home contents insurers, and they both tell me they have no problem with this.

The direct quote from my building insurers (through the brokers) is:

<We> wouldn't have any issues with an owner upgrading their own individual
burglar alarm

I'm quite technically minded and even though one professional has been at pains to explain that only certified alarm engineers can make modifications to a home system, I'm not convinced.

Any professionals (or otherwise) on here who can clarify?

2011

So I take that to mean that as a layperson I can't go and install an alarm in someone's property.

Correct

You can do what you want with your own system. What you are not permitted to do is to charge others for alarm installation work if you are not a paid up member of the PSA.

Many people choose not to avail of the discount offered by insurance companies as thier policy becomes invalid if they forget to arm the alarm!

What type of alarm do you have?
I take it that you are self monitored?

The GSM is a great idea IMHO.

If you are technically minded I sure you will manage with a bit of guidance from this forum. Start off by getting your hands on an installation manual. Some are available on line.

altor

Feckless Rogue wrote: »

I'm quite technically minded and even though one professional has been at pains to explain that only certified alarm engineers can make modifications to a home system, I'm not convinced.

Any professionals (or otherwise) on here who can clarify?

If you do the work on your own alarm you are not breaking the law.. If your alarm is EN50131 certified and you do any work on it the cert becomes invalid and the alarm becomes just a house alarm up to no standards.

2011

I read the OP again and thought about the remark that the insurance company made.

<We> wouldn't have any issues with an owner upgrading their own individual burglar alarm

It might mean "<We> have no objection to an owner paying a licensed installer to increase the security on their home by upgrading their alarm system", on the other hand it might also mean "do the upragde yourself we have absolute faith in your ability and it will not have any impact on your cover"

Sometimes quotes mean whatever the insurance company wants them to mean in the event of a claim! I would look for clarification if I were you.

Good luck with what ever you decide:)

Feckless Rogue

Cheers for the answers so far

altor wrote: »

If you do the work on your own alarm you are not breaking the law.. If your alarm is EN50131 certified and you do any work on it the cert becomes invalid and the alarm becomes just a house alarm up to no standards.

Okay, so just to reply to that first - would that have any practical implications e.g. in getting the alarm serviced and stuff like that? If I'm understanding everyone correctly this type of certification is a way for properly accredited technicians to approve a system.

I'm wondering am I setting myself up for a situation where (even if I do a proper job) no technician will set foot in the place, or is the worst that can happen just that they would service the system but not give it an official seal of approval?

2011 wrote: »

Correct

You can do what you want with your own system. What you are not permitted to do is to charge others for alarm installation work if you are not a paid up member of the PSA.

Many people choose not to avail of the discount offered by insurance companies as thier policy becomes invalid if they forget to arm the alarm!

What type of alarm do you have?
I take it that you are self monitored?

The GSM is a great idea IMHO.

If you are technically minded I sure you will manage with a bit of guidance from this forum. Start off by getting your hands on an installation manual. Some are available on line.

Thanks for all that info. So that means I could replace the alarm panel too if I was inclined? I've a sw8/12 board currently, and I can see the expansion slot on the board which looks straightforward enough.

I didn't realise that about the insurance being invalid if the thing isn't armed, that's useful to know. Nah I won't be going for monitored - a well placed text will be more effective I think.

I'm interested in exploring all the options here - a further twist is I've been getting into Arduino which is rich with sensor and input/output possibilities (including GSM - there are cheaper modules than that AFAIK). With some of the systems including X10 etc nowadays I think this'll be more of an evolution rather than an upgrade-and-be-done-with-it.

Have to start at square 1 though: I've already set off the tamper my subsequent messing will be with mains off. Presumably if I pop out the ext bell wires I can test with the internal bell without upsetting the neighbours?

In the meantime I'll try and get my hands on that manual...

Feckless Rogue

2011 wrote: »

I read the OP again and thought about the remark that the insurance company made.



It might mean "<We> have no objection to an owner paying a licensed installer to increase the security on their home by upgrading their alarm system", on the other hand it might also mean "do the upragde yourself we have absolute faith in your ability and it will not have any impact on your cover"

Sometimes quotes mean whatever the insurance company wants them to mean in the event of a claim! I would look for clarification if I were you.

Good luck with what ever you decide:)

Just saw this after I posted... yeah it is a bit ambiguous isn't it? I may contact them directly and try and tie them down to a definite answer. I was quite clear with the broker about differentiating between paying someone -v- doing the actual work myself.

I tried ringing the PSA today to ask what their position was but didn't get through. Also tried wading through the legislation just now but can't find any mention of private individuals making modifications to home systems... I hope I can do this myself though - it's too much of a fun project (and I'm too broke) to pass up

altor

You should have no problem getting your alarm serviced if it is in need of repair. Ring any local alarm company and they will do that for you.
Only certified installers can certify an alarm. If you do anything to your alarm it makes your certification and any warranty invalid.

You say you have an 8/12 panel. You can put a 4 zone expander on this to make 4 more zones if you need too. This is wired in through where the keypad goes.. With this panel you can get a text dialer to slot on to the pins you see on the board for monitoring it through your phone line or get yourself a gsm that will give you remote access to the panel. The gsm can also be used to open gates or turn on lights by texting the panel..

zg3409

Regarding insurance basically I assume if you alarm was not installed and maintained to agreed standards then it does not meet the insurance companies requirements. If you have ever claimed off insurance you will know they will find any reason not to pay.

I.e. If someone breaks in and it does not sound will the insurance company pay?

As mentioned they only give you money off because

a) If it is not on then then you have no insurance (even at night-time)
b) If you do have it on and a burgular breaks in they are less likely to stay and rob stuff.


I would not tell your insurance you have an alarm as then you are only covered when it is on and then only if they consider it is still certified and properly maintained by an authorised company.

Another thing is what are you going to do when you get a text? Rush home?
It would be worth having a note of a neighbour who can, "look over the wall" and check for signs of forced entry.

If you contact the Gardai they ask is the alarm certified and monitored and is there a keyholder on the way. If not then they will only go if they have nothing better to do. The best response is for a neighbour to say they can see someone trying to break in.

Everyone ignores ringing bells.

Domestic alarm call outs are not high in Gardai importance as 99.9% are false alarms.

Note under current regulations alarm companies must change the default engineers pin code so if you want to add zones etc you either need to find out how to do a factory reset or contact the origional alarm company and pay them lots of money to change the code back to default. (They usually wont tell you the engineer code so it means a site visit)

Regarding arduino you might be intertested in this group in Dublin:

http://www.tog.ie/category/arduino/

Dan

KoolKid

zg3409 wrote: »

Another thing is what are you going to do when you get a text? Rush home?

Text diallers are a useless gimmick. I would always recommend Central Station monitoring.

zg3409 wrote: »

they will only go if they have nothing better to do.

They will respont to a verified alarm signal sent to a monitoring station.

zg3409 wrote: »

Domestic alarm call outs are not high in Gardai importance as 99.9% are false alarms.

Thats why they respond to verified alarms.

zg3409 wrote: »

Note under current regulations alarm companies must change the default engineers pin code so if you want to add zones etc you either need to find out how to do a factory reset or contact the origional alarm company and pay them lots of money to change the code back to default. (They usually wont tell you the engineer code so it means a site visit)

Any alarm company can easily reset & reprogramme any system.
If they can't I would recommend you find somebody who knows what they are doing. Obviousally any company is going to charge for a call out.
Would you expect any company to facilitate you for free so as you can give business elsewhere.???
These issues have been debated here many time. I would recommend you do a search.

2011

Text diallers are a useless gimmick. I would always recommend Central Station monitoring.

I think they are great! Not as a stand alone communication system, but with a monitoring station/self monitoring.

KoolKid

2011 wrote: »

I think they are great! Not as a stand alone communication system, but with a monitoring station/self monitoring.

You mean in conjunction with Central Station Monitoring.??

2011

You mean in conjunction with Central Station Monitoring.??

I mean that I have been with people while their property has broken into (more than once) and the first indication that they have had about the situation was from a text dialler and their alarms were monitored! That is why I think that text diallers are good, although I do admit that they have their limitations. I am not suggesting that monitoring (self monitoring or otherwise) is not good.

altor

zg3409 wrote: »

If you contact the Gardai they ask is the alarm certified and monitored and is there a keyholder on the way. If not then they will only go if they have nothing better to do. The best response is for a neighbour to say they can see someone trying to break in.

The only way the guards will go to your house is if the alarm is certified, maintained to the relevant standard and monitored by a monitoring station. For you to say the guards will only go if they have nothing better to do is not right. If you ring the guards yourself how are they to know if it is not a false alarm or if you install the alarm. how are they to know if it is just down to your installation. The process that is used by the guards is 100% right in regards to your alarm.

zg3409 wrote: »

Everyone ignores ringing bells.

This is true and why more and more people are getting there alarm monitored.

zg3409 wrote: »

Domestic alarm call outs are not high in Gardai importance as 99.9% are false alarms.

Domestic or commercial alarm call outs are treated the same.
Can you give some info to back up this claim ?

zg3409 wrote: »

Note under current regulations alarm companies must change the default engineers pin code so if you want to add zones etc you either need to find out how to do a factory reset or contact the origional alarm company and pay them lots of money to change the code back to default. (They usually wont tell you the engineer code so it means a site visit)

Alarm companies change this code as who wants there alarm that is there to protect there home or business with a code that anyone can have access to.

2011

+1

eoghan.geraghty

koolkid wrote: »

Text diallers are a useless gimmick. I would always recommend Central Station monitoring.

I have to disagree here, my mother's alarm texted me when I knew she was away, I waited one minute for the unset text before ringing the only brother who lives there. He was in work so I got him to ring the local gardai while I headed over.
The gardai arrived 2 minutes after me, approx 10 mins from alarm text.

Are eircom quicker than this?

The only problem is you have to convince the gardai you are the owner's son and not a burglar with a claw hammer in your hand:o

2011

I have to disagree here, my mother's alarm texted me when I knew she was away, I waited one minute for the unset text before ringing the only brother who lives there. He was in work so I got him to ring the local gardai while I headed over.
The gardai arrived 2 minutes after me, approx 10 mins from alarm text.

+ 1
Friends of mine have had a similar experience.

My friend is a keyholder for a large commerical premesis. When the alarm is set off the first he knows about it is when the alarm texts him. He then informs the Gardai. He has found that this gets the quickest response. This alarm is also connected to a monitoring station.

KoolKid

eoghan.geraghty wrote: »

The gardai arrived 2 minutes after me, approx 10 mins from alarm text.
Are eircom quicker than this?

The Gardai's response time was nothing to do with it being a monitored alarm or a text dialler. That was simply the circumstance.

What if it had been a genuine panic or fire activation. 12+ minutes would have been too late. What if you are attacked in your own home & you use the panic button? Your phone buzzing in your pocket (or someone elses pocket) is of no help.
My simple outlook on monitored alarms is this...
If you pay ,say, €300 for 10 years & its never needed,good, your family & home is still safe. If in year 11 you have a panic or fire situation & that one activation gets the response needed to save your home & family was the €3000 money well spent?
Now reverse the situation.. & you saved €3000+ because the self monitiorin was the cheaper option. What happens? You saved €3000, but you may have lose something a lot more valuable. Is it worth it?

eoghan.geraghty

koolkid wrote: »

The Gardai's response time was nothing to do with it being a monitored alarm or a text dialler. That was simply the circumstance.

So you're saying a monitored alarm won't guarantee a quicker response? I agree with you on this.

KoolKid

You were asking about whether an Eircom system would get a quicker response time than you getting a text & calling the Gardai?
The answer there is probobly no, unless the system is using Alarm verification in which case the answer would be yes.
Possibly you called at the right time, maybe there was guard close by or you were via another call. Thats what I ment by circumstance. After that its down to priority.
Verified alarm reports get priority over normal alarm calls or alarm calls from the public.
PAs & Fire get priority over all.

If you pay ,say, €300 for 10 years & its never needed,good, your family & home is still safe. If in year 11 you have a panic or fire situation & that one activation gets the response needed to save your home & family was the €3000 money well spent?
Now reverse the situation.. & you saved €3000+ because the self monitiorin was the cheaper option. What happens? You saved €3000, but you may have lose something a lot more valuable. Is it worth it?

What do you think Eoghan??

Feckless Rogue

Only saw the replies to the thread late last night... I haven't actually made any changes to the alarm system yet and am still taking a cautious approach to this, but I'm enjoying the debate

The main issues for me would appear to be

a) whether the owner is still insured
b) whether the guards will call out
c) whether the alarm is still certified
d) whether c affects a) or b) at all.

I'm still looking for clarity on the insurance question. On the point of the guards, honestly if someone robs my place, with all the best intentions inthe world (and even with 3rd party monitoring) I don't expect the guards to make it there in time to nab them. But if someone's in my home robbing my stuff - or worse - I at least want to know about it instantly.

zg3409 in particular made lots of good points so I'm replying to most of them separately.

zg3409 wrote: »

Regarding insurance basically I assume if you alarm was not installed and maintained to agreed standards then it does not meet the insurance companies requirements. If you have ever claimed off insurance you will know they will find any reason not to pay.

What both my insurers are saying is that from an insurance point of view they have no problem with me making upgrades. I'm still unclear about modifications. Of course I know this could be like making a deal with the devil - they vaguely agree to something and then wait for the AHA! moment. I intend to avoid that if possible.

zg3409 wrote: »

I.e. If someone breaks in and it does not sound will the insurance company pay?

Someone mentioned that earlier. Not if you have the 'alarm discount' it seems. With a self-upgraded alarm I think the answer there would be regular testing by the owner or a certified technician. That's why I was asking above re getting someone to take a look at the system after modifications/upgrades have been made.

TBH if someone makes their own changes I think they'd have more of an issue with false positives than the alarm not going off - if you make modifications, test the thing and it's not working then the smart thing to do is quit while you're ahead and get someone qualified to fix what you've broken!

zg3409 wrote: »

I would not tell your insurance you have an alarm as then you are only covered when it is on and then only if they consider it is still certified and properly maintained by an authorised company.

A bit late for not telling them I've an alarm

Again, this seems to be contrary to what the insurers are saying themselves. Believe me, I won't be doing anything if I think there's a chance it'll void my insurance. I imagine it'll be a bit more difficult to get it in writing but the initial indication is quite clear that they're okay with this and I intend to get something I can hold them to.

As mentioned they only give you money off because

a) If it is not on then then you have no insurance (even at night-time)
b) If you do have it on and a burgular breaks in they are less likely to stay and rob stuff.

When I spoke to the home contents providers the impression I got was that that's an optional extra which I can easily cancel. I wouldn't be surprised if that's only a condition of the extra - I'll ask them next time & cancel if needs be.

Other good points made:

zg3409 wrote: »

Another thing is what are you going to do when you get a text? Rush home?
It would be worth having a note of a neighbour who can, "look over the wall" and check for signs of forced entry.

Yep, got both of those covered, but see below for a bit more detail of what I'm actually talking about.

zg3409 wrote: »

If you contact the Gardai they ask is the alarm certified and monitored and is there a keyholder on the way.

Didn't know this. In my case the existing alarm is certified. My monitoring setup won't be but I don't know that I am legally required to have a personal monitoring setup certified.

zg3409 wrote: »

The best response is for a neighbour to say they can see someone trying to break in.

Definitely - however I would also like two-way audio and text, and if possible remote video/picture.

zg3409 wrote: »

Everyone ignores ringing bells.

That's why I want to self-monitor

zg3409 wrote: »

Domestic alarm call outs are not high in Gardai importance as 99.9% are false alarms.

Not sure about that. Probably the ideal thing is to be able to say "I'm looking at my house and x amount of people are nicking my stuff."

zg3409 wrote: »

Note under current regulations alarm companies must change the default engineers pin code so if you want to add zones etc you either need to find out how to do a factory reset or contact the origional alarm company and pay them lots of money to change the code back to default. (They usually wont tell you the engineer code so it means a site visit)

I've spoken to the engineer who installed the system - he seems like a reasonable bloke so I don't see this being a problem.

zg3409 wrote: »

Regarding arduino you might be intertested in this group in Dublin:

http://www.tog.ie/category/arduino/

Dan

Definitely interested - have sent you an email on this



I should mention at this stage that since I made the original post I've revised my plans a bit. The original plan was to replace the PIR and buy HKC compatible wireless panic buttons and a GSM module.

As I've learned how to use my alarm's zones properly there's no need for a replacement PIR so no work to be done there. However with the HKC modules, although they're the simpler option IMO you pay a lot for the simplicity. This is leading me to go the custom route with the GSM module I linked above.

This will give me a text + duplex audio solution whose logic I can easily reprogram. It's also possible (although not necessarily easy) to hook up wireless key fobs.

Someone mentioned thieves not hanging around if the alarm is going off - I think also having someone shouting at them and maybe a strobe or two would be even more persuasive.

Depending on what the insurers come back with, I could use this hardware to check the status of the alarm electrically by monitoring the +5v signals or passively via simple audio analysis.

If I'm inclined, I can attach extra sensors directly to the board, making it independent of my house alarm. The board can then be programmed to give me as much information as possible so I can make a decision on whether or not to investigate/call the guards.

This isn't the only such board out there BTW but what sold me was the speaker outputs and mic input.

koolkid wrote: »

Text diallers are a useless gimmick. I would always recommend Central Station monitoring.

If all diallers do is send you a dumb text, then you're probably right. If you can use SMS to query the status of your alarm or even set/unset (or perform home automation functions etc), they could become very useful. I'm not yet sure I can do that without upsetting the insurers, but I think it's possible.

I just don't see what a remote monitoring station will do that I can't, aside from what people have mentioned re Garda response.

altor wrote: »

The only way the guards will go to your house is if the alarm is certified, maintained to the relevant standard and monitored by a monitoring station. For you to say the guards will only go if they have nothing better to do is not right. If you ring the guards yourself how are they to know if it is not a false alarm or if you install the alarm. how are they to know if it is just down to your installation. The process that is used by the guards is 100% right in regards to your alarm.

Surely from a Garda point of view there is a difference though, between "my neighbour says my alarm is going off, please come to my house" and e.g. "I can see my front door is open and one perimeter/three internal sensors have been activated."

altor

Feckless Rogue wrote: »

I just don't see what a remote monitoring station will do that I can't, aside from what people have mentioned re Garda response.

A monitoring station is there to monitor your alarm, be that for fire, panic or in an emergency. The guards, fire brigade or ambulance are there to respond to a monitored alarm and are more likely to attend the house monitored through a monitoring station than a self monitored alarm. I can get an alarm monitored for €150 a year which is well worth the money in my eyes. I know people monitor there own alarm but when they need the emergency services they are met with loads of questions which have being pointed out by previous posters. With a monitored alarm the monitoring station ring the service you require and that is that as every monitored alarm has there own number so cuts down the time on the response from them. At the end of the day it is up to you if you want it monitored or if you want to do it yourself.

KoolKid

Feckless Rogue wrote: »

The main issues for me would appear to be

a) whether the owner is still insured
b) whether the guards will call out
c) whether the alarm is still certified
d) whether c affects a) or b) at all.

a)If work is carried out on your alarm by anyone who is not licenced by the PSA that that system no longer conforms to EN50131. If you are recieving a discount on your policy for having a system certified to EN50131 then your insurance can refuse any claim.
2)The Guards will call out to monitored alarms reporting a verified alarm.
PA & Fire are automatically responded to as a priority
3) Alarm is not still certified
4) Does affect B but it may not become apparent untill the Guards require a report that the system has been serviced.

Feckless Rogue wrote: »

But if someone's in my home robbing my stuff - or worse - I at least want to know about it instantly.

My point exactly . Isn't what you pay for monitoring worth it for this alone.

Feckless Rogue wrote: »

What both my insurers are saying is that from an insurance point of view they have no problem with me making upgrades. I'm still unclear about modifications. Of course I know this could be like making a deal with the devil - they vaguely agree to something and then wait for the AHA! moment. I intend to avoid that if possible.

Generally speaking insurers wont have a problem untill you make a claim.
If you want to make changes to your security yourself the best thing to do is have no reference to /or no discount applied, relating to your alarm.

Feckless Rogue wrote: »

With a self-upgraded alarm I think the answer there would be regular testing by the owner or a certified technician. That's why I was asking above re getting someone to take a look at the system after modifications/upgrades have been made.

After the work is done you can get a licenced company out to service & certify the system. Remember certification is only valid for 1 year.

Feckless Rogue wrote: »

TBH if someone makes their own changes I think they'd have more of an issue with false positives than the alarm not going off - if you make modifications, test the thing and it's not working then the smart thing to do is quit while you're ahead and get someone qualified to fix what you've broken!

+1 Exactly

Feckless Rogue wrote: »

Didn't know this. In my case the existing alarm is certified. My monitoring setup won't be but I don't know that I am legally required to have a personal monitoring setup certified.

Personal monitoring does not effect certification if the work is carried out by a licenced installer. Again ensure a monitored alarm is not part of your policy & that you are not recieving a discount for same.

Feckless Rogue wrote: »

Someone mentioned thieves not hanging around if the alarm is going off - I think also having someone shouting at them and maybe a strobe or two would be even more persuasive.

Generally the more the better is good for any security solution.
Simply put, its better to have it & not need it
Rather than need it & not have it.

Feckless Rogue wrote: »

If all diallers do is send you a dumb text, then you're probably right. If you can use SMS to query the status of your alarm or even set/unset (or perform home automation functions etc), they could become very useful. I'm not yet sure I can do that without upsetting the insurers, but I think it's possible.

Looking back over all your requirements, I would say an upgrade to the SigNet 220 would be a better option.

Feckless Rogue wrote: »

I just don't see what a remote monitoring station will do that I can't, aside from what people have mentioned re Garda response.

Ideally with keyholders who are close by as well, Station controllers can also stay in contact while you or a keyholder enters a premises. If you walk in on someone that instantly becomes a PA

Feckless Rogue wrote: »

Surely from a Garda point of view there is a difference though, between "my neighbour says my alarm is going off, please come to my house" and e.g. "I can see my front door is open and one perimeter/three internal sensors have been activated."

Ofcourse there is. That is why verified alarms get Garda response.

eoghan.geraghty

koolkid wrote: »

If you pay ,say, €300 for 10 years & its never needed,good, your family & home is still safe. If in year 11 you have a panic or fire situation & that one activation gets the response needed to save your home & family was the €3000 money well spent?
Now reverse the situation.. & you saved €3000+ because the self monitiorin was the cheaper option. What happens? You saved €3000, but you may have lose something a lot more valuable. Is it worth it?

You are outlining 2 situations here as far as I can see, the first is financial loss due to a break in when nobody is home. I think I've shown a text dialler can be responded to as quickly as a monitored alarm.
The second situation is personal loss due to a break in when you and your family are home. If the alarm sounds when you're home surely you can ring the gardai/emergency services yourself?

Correct me if I've taken you up wrong.

KoolKid

eoghan.geraghty wrote: »

You are outlining 2 situations here as far as I can see, the first is financial loss due to a break in when nobody is home. I think I've shown a text dialler can be responded to as quickly as a monitored alarm.

You have outlined a certain instance of a text monitored alarm getting a good response.
I have already said this was more down to circumstance & this sort of response is not the norm & could not be assured.
A verified alarm signal recieved by a monitoring station will get the priority every time.

eoghan.geraghty wrote: »

The second situation is personal loss due to a break in when you and your family are home. If the alarm sounds when you're home surely you can ring the gardai/emergency services yourself?

In A PA situation please explain how you would phone the Gardai or the emergency services. I would hardly trivialise an event like this by calling it a personal personal loss