How's our driving...?(forum feedback)

LuckyLloyd

whatawaster wrote: »

A prime example of what's wrong on another thread.

If someone calls Rafa "evil" for selling Robbie Keane, is that a reasonable opinion? Should a poster not know that will inflame people?

Saying he was wrong to sell Keane is a valid opinion, and one i'd argue with, but accept as a valid one.

Frankly, no it isn't.

Boggles

Oh Sweet Titty Jesus.

We are nailing the problems with the forum on the head here.

Where did I say Rafa was Evil???

What I said was what he did to Keane was pretty evil?

WTF is wrong with that?

Seriously lads if ye are that precious and something like that offends ye, maybe a football forum and football in general is not for ye.

LuckyLloyd

Boggles wrote: »

Oh Sweet Titty Jesus.

We are nailing the problems with the forum on the head here.

Where did I say Rafa was Evil???

What I said was what he did to Keane was pretty evil?

WTF is wrong with that?

Seriously lads if ye are that precious and something like that offends ye, maybe a football forum and football in general is not for ye.

Do you understand what the word "evil" means?

elshambo

there are 8-10 lads who just troll certain threads
Everyone knows who they are!
Everyone knows what they are at!

I actually pity them and their sad lives more than anything else,
ive them on ignore but people react to them and ruin the threads

Hammer them a couple of times and let the rest flow

apart from that :cool:


*there is one mod (no names no....) who quite often posts like a troll
and then a couple of posts later bans someone for posts similar to his own!? :rolleyes:

Boggles

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Do you understand what the word "evil" means?

Not a very fooking nice thing to do is my understanding of evil.

As in the opposite of Good.

Handsome Bob

copacetic wrote: »

I absolutely agreee it is a difficult situation and I wouldn't want to be in their place, they do a good job, imo this issue is the key to where the forum ends up.

Trolling is difficult to moderate across boards, there is always the 'this is just my opinion' argument. However the mods are there to call BS on this (or not), thats their call. eg say we have a user whose every opinion is that anything to do with say Villa is muck, they spend every waking hour on any thread discussing villa 'debating' each and every point that anyone makes, constantly arguing that every player is terrible, the manager is terrible, the fans are terrible the owners are terrible etc etc etc. Should any real villa fan have to put up with that? How is the soccer forum going to grow bigger and bigger when real discussion gets drowned out by the noisy shout at the top of the lungs hooligan element?

The reason its easier to do nothing is because the people who have a problem with these posters generally don't want to cause storms on feedback or helpdesk. The element that would cause such storms are exactly the kind to do something about.

The mods should let it go until its obvious that the person has nothing of value to offer the soccer forum, then close the door after them.

(This is all imo of course, as I said moderation is a lot better, more open and done with more class in recent times than it was in the past)

I hear you, and it's a very fair argument. We live in the hope that posters will grow up or concede points, but that's sadly not going to happen.

Personally I would like a harsher crack down on trolling. How I would deal with it is simple; if someone is hampering the progression of an argument (i.e. unwilling to take counter arguments on board and fine tune their arguments in accordance) then they are, IMO, trolling.

elshambo

Boggles wrote: »

Seriously lads if ye are that precious and something like that offends ye, maybe a football forum and football in general is not for ye.

Thats quite funny considering the fact that a good(bad) 90% of your posts show a lack of even the most basic knowledge of football

Boggles wrote: »

Not a very fooking nice thing to do is my understanding of evil.

As in the opposite of Good.

NO that word would be "BAD"
"Bad" would be the word your thinking of there

Headshot

elshambo I dont know why your preaching

i remember your post in the liverpool thread basically calling myself and other posters trolls

funny thing was nothing was done about it

kinda reminds me of other instances where opposition fans call utd players names and been let off with it

LuckyLloyd

Boggles wrote: »

Not a very fooking nice thing to do is my understanding of evil.

As in the opposite of Good.

The problem is moral standards of "good" and "evil" really have little or nothing to do with football transfers. The idea of evil is something really focused and defined, and if you intend to throw such terms around in the context of a business decision you are going to have to go to great lengths to justify your position.

whatawaster

Headshot wrote: »

elshambo I dont know why your preaching

i remember your post in the liverpool thread basically calling myself and other posters trolls

funny thing was nothing was done about it

kinda reminds me of other instances where opposition fans call utd players names and been let off with it

The fact that nothing is being done about it the point of this argument.
Anyone calling any player names should be infracted. Did you report the instances?

Headshot

whatawaster wrote: »

The fact that nothing is being done about it the point of this argument.
Anyone calling any player names should be infracted. Did you report the instances?

of course i did

nothing was done

Boggles

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The problem is moral standards of "good" and "evil" really have little or nothing to do with football transfers. The idea of evil is something really focused and defined, and if you intend to throw such terms around in the context of a business decision you are going to have to go to great lengths to justify your position.

Just like to point we are arguing about the use of a word. Is it gone that bad?

To do something evil is to do something morally wrong. What Benitez did to Keane was morally wrong.

I think popular culture has warped some peoples sense of certain words. I know what happened, I said evil and ye thought:

Boggles

elshambo wrote: »

Thats quite funny considering the fact that a good(bad) 90% of your posts show a lack of even the most basic knowledge of football



NO that word would be "BAD"
"Bad" would be the word your thinking of there

If we want this thread to be any way constructive I suggest leaving out the childish petty digs.

LuckyLloyd

Boggles wrote: »

Just like to point we are arguing about the use of a word. Is it gone that bad?

To do something evil is to do something morally wrong. What Benitez did to Keane was morally wrong.

I think popular culture has warped some peoples sense of certain words. I know what happened, I said evil and ye thought:

I don't think you are getting it to be honest. You see, you can't just type something like that while offering zero qualification or clarification if there are to be any standards of discourse around here. "Morally wrong". Huh?

Mr Alan

Boggles, you know what happened. Don't pretend to be stupid.

You were making a point about Rafa & Keane, in order to annoy people as much as possible, you used words that would do that.

When people call you on it, you pretend that people are being foolish in reacting to what you said, when in reality, we both know the reason you used used dramatic terminology was to get a reaction & annoy people as much as possible.

Boggles

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I don't think you are getting it to be honest. You see, you can't just say something like that if there are to be any standards of discourse around here. "Morally wrong". Huh?

So what do you propose I defined set of allowed words?

LuckyLloyd

Boggles wrote: »

So what do you propose I defined set of allowed words?

I think it is crystal clear what I am proposing / implying.

Mr Alan

Boggles wrote: »

If we want this thread to be any way constructive I suggest leaving out the childish petty digs.

the irony after putting up a pic of Doctor Evil to mock people who took offense to you saying Rafa had done something evil (thereby implying that was your opinion of the person in question as you did say that his actions were not surprising, and surely someones actions are how normal people would judge a person)

Boggles

Mr Alan wrote: »

Boggles, you know what happened. Don't pretend to be stupid.

You were making a point about Rafa & Keane, in order to annoy people as much as possible, you used words that would do that.

Bollix Al, I read 3 pages of the Keane / Rafa arguement.

I summised what happened in one post, IMO.

It's hardly my fault is people are annoyed over the use of a commonly used word.

Boggles

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I think it is crystal clear what I am proposing / implying.

No it isn't, what your trying to imply is that I'm not qualified to give an opinion?

Mr Alan

its not a commonly used word though Boggles, not when talking about football & football transfers.

LuckyLloyd

Boggles wrote: »

Bollix Al, I read 3 pages of the Keane / Rafa arguement.

I summised what happened in one post, IMO.

It's hardly my fault is people are annoyed over the use of a commonly used word.

By the by, I do think it is very nice of you to drop in and deliver a picture perfect example of the type of posting we've been discussing up thread. Cheers.

whatawaster

Boggles wrote: »

It's hardly my fault is people are annoyed over the use of a commonly used word.

It is.

It's a commonly used word in relation to dictators, murderers, paedophiles etc. That's it's colloquial use and you well know it.

LuckyLloyd

Boggles wrote: »

No it isn't, what your trying to imply is that I'm not qualified to give an opinion?

Swing and a miss.

Boggles

Mr Alan wrote: »

its not a commonly used word though Boggles, not when talking about football & football transfers.

Well it was used in the context of one person trying to prove a point to the detrement of an other person.

If was fooking evil, get over it.

Boggles

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

By the by, I do think it is very nice of you to drop in and deliver a picture perfect example of the type of posting we've been discussing up thread. Cheers.

Wasn't me that brought it to the attention of this thread.

LuckyLloyd

Boggles wrote: »

Wasn't me that brought it to the attention of this thread.

Doesn't matter. The point is that we've now derailed this thread nicely, and the nature of the back and forth encapsulates what we have been discussing.

Boggles

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Doesn't matter. The point is that we've now derailed this thread nicely, and the nature of the back and forth encapsulates what we have been discussing.

No the point which has been proven again by this thread, is that if people weren't so precious and stopped getting on their high horses about every little thing the forum would be alot better for it.

The Muppet

Mr Alan wrote: »

yet these comments (despite reporting them for the first few weeks of the season) went unpunished in the main-eg: only the other day Boggles saying that Liverpool are not a big team in a Liverpool match thread was deemed to not be an worthy of an infraction. Or whoever it was that said that Hypia was an average premier league player in a Liverpool related thread.

An excellent example Al as to why such comments should not be punishable.

You say it was worthy of an infraction yet we had another Liverpool supporter Chucky the tree who agreed with the comment and gave good reasons why he though so. So we have a post that one Liverpool supporter thinks is worth of an infraction and another one agrees with. How can the mods possibly legislate against that?

Mr Alan

Boggles wrote: »

No the point which has been proven again by this thread, is that if people weren't so precious and stopped getting on their high horses about every little thing the forum would be alot better for it.

see again, your taking pops at people when in reality if this forum was allowed to be as you seem to want it, we both know it would just descend into flame wars everywhere & be no good to anyone.

whatawaster

Mr Alan wrote: »

see again, your taking pops at people when in reality if this forum was allowed to be as you seem to want it, we both know it would just descend into flame wars everywhere & be no good to anyone.

like every other football forum i've ever been on.

Mr Alan

The Muppet wrote: »

You say it was worthy of an infraction yet we had another Liverpool supporter Chucky the tree who agreed with the comment and gave good reasons why he though so. So we have a post that one Liverpool supporter thinks is worth of an infraction and another one agrees with. How can the mods possibly legislate against that?

actually muppet, i said it was not worthy of an infraction imo, but that if mods were being consistant, it should have been.

Chuckys wouldnt have deserved an infraction because he is a liverpool fan and because he made a couple of huge posts explaining why he thought that.

i had been informed by a mod that the thread a comment was made in & the person who made the comment would be used to judge whether or not a comment could be deemed trolling.

Boggles

Mr Alan wrote: »

see again, your taking pops at people when in reality if this forum was allowed to be as you seem to want it, we both know it would just descend into flame wars everywhere & be no good to anyone.

What are you talking about Alan?

Who am I taking pops at?

Mr. Presentable

dannydiamond wrote: »

Considering the nature of the forum, I think you lads do a smashing job.

It's not the nature of the forum that's difficult, it's the snidey attitude of a small but active group of posters who like to skirt the trolling boundary and throw out the toys when someone else sniffs in the direction of "their club".

I voted that things should be more relaxed to disarm the preciousness of these few.

SlickRic

the problem is both sides aren't willing to look at themselves to be honest.

'baiters' seem to think there's nothing wrong with what they're doing, even though they know exactly what they're doing - everyone should just chill out.

'whingers' don't want anything controversial to be said.

we all just need to grow up i think.

this would not be a better forum if we let everything go, and it would not be better without controversial comments.

as i say, let's just all be mature about it. i assume we all want actual discussion. then discuss amicably. it is possible.

i honestly don't know why people feel the need to rise people. it's just pointless for everyone. it's more the tones of the posts than anything.

sorry, that was very incoherent, but i'm not editing it!

Mr Alan

Boggles wrote: »

What are you talking about Alan?

Who am I taking pops at?

people who are in your opinion being too precious & getting on their high horses.

when in reality, they are only doing what you want them to do when you make some of the comments you do.

Boggles

Mr Alan wrote: »

people who are in your opinion being too precious & getting on their high horses.

when in reality, they are only doing what you want them to do when you make some of the comments you do.

Sorry Alan, but I had no intention in taking part in this thread, I knew the direction it was taking and I wanted no part in it.

It wasn't until I was referenced 3 times that I decided to respond. I'm not having a pop at anyone, there is plenty having a pop at me though.

There is nothing wrong with the forum for the record and the mods are doing an excellent job, my one gripe which I'm entitled to air is that certain posters take things way too seriously. I can live with it though because it doesn't bother me.

The Muppet

Mr Alan wrote: »

actually muppet, i said it was not worthy of an infraction imo, but that if mods were being consistant, it should have been.

Chuckys wouldnt have deserved an infraction because he is a liverpool fan and because he made a couple of huge posts explaining why he thought that.

i had been informed by a mod that the thread a comment was made in & the person who made the comment would be used to judge whether or not a comment could be deemed trolling.

Sorry I though you were implying it warranted an infraction. However many users did report that post so my point still stands re the impossibility of legislating against such comments.

I'm not sure what your saying here is it that only Livepool fans or fans that have made a number of positive posts about the club are entitled to criticise them????? If thats it I don't agree.

This is not a Liverpool/Man United/ whatever club forum. It's a General Football forum where everyones opinion should be equal, there are numerous dedicated forums if people really want to be protected from criticism of their Clubs/Managers etc .

The Muppet

SlickRic wrote: »

i honestly don't know why people feel the need to rise people. it's just pointless for everyone. it's more the tones of the posts than anything.

sorry, that was very incoherent, but i'm not editing it!

It's not the tone that people are judging by as there is not tone to the written word, it's the username and the allegiences of the poster TBH.

GLaDOS

I've seen a lot of threads degrade into Liverpool v Man Utd arguments, I'm impressed it was managed with this one.

SlickRic

The Muppet wrote: »

It's not the tone that people are judging by as there is not tone to the written word, it's the username and the allegiences of the poster TBH.

couldn't agree less.

you can definitely tell the tone of a piece of written word.

definitely.

not in every single instance, but in many.

and when it comes from those who generally wind up, then you can be even more definite.

either way, both sides need to cop on. some people more than others of course; but both sides need to cop on all the same.

ntlbell

rarnes1 wrote: »

But if someone is going against the grain ALL the time, surely they must be dealt with?

I'm not aware of having a differing an opinion was against the rules tho?

as i said the difference someone saying something for the sake of it.

and someone who says it then backs that opinion up with why they have it.

when it comes to opposing fans the nature of football will usually have a conversation with disagreement.

This is not a problem IMO having the diversity of opinion we have on boards is what makes it an interesting place to discuss football.

5starpool

I agree with Lloyd, but know that it doesn't matter much.

This place is modded too harsh on some things, not harsh enough on others. Less rules, more common sense required. Most of the problems stem from the Liverpool v Man U debate as far as I can see, and it seems to be mostly one sided. I'm sure if Liverpool were the team in the ascendancy it might well be the other way round, but as things stand it mostly stems from the Liverpool fans being wound up and being tolld essentially to stop reacting and skip over 'contrary opinion' posts and being punished harsher than the source if they do react.

Tough on crime, not tough on the causes of crime seems to be the way things are done for this low leve trolling, whereas a lot of the infractions given out in other areas (with an associated 1 week ban) are too harsh I feel.

Obviously humour is fine and triumphalism is to be expected and tolerated in some instances, but the source and previous form of the posters should be taken in to account with this. Banning/Modding according to a chart of (imho) at times silly rules isn't necessarily the best approach.

KevIRL

5Starpool for mod!

GLaDOS

5starpool wrote: »

Less rules, more common sense required.

Can't see this working, too many poster would be whinging, saying, "Where's the consistency!?" or "It doesn't say in the rules I did anything wrong!"

Villain

The problem isn't so much how harsh or not the mods are, the problem is that mods are too slow to deal with big game threads. A lot of these threads have a lot of quick action as threads grow quickly but mods often aren't around when needed the most.

I brought up an idea in feedback where there would be a panel of part time mods that would be called upon for big game weekends to ensure there always mods around when needed, and ideally the part time mods called upon would not be supporters of either team.

ntlbell

Mr Alan wrote: »

Ntl; your sig.

A pic of Michael Owen in a Utd jersey, with the comment Utd Legend (which was there before he ever did anything iirc)

Two negative comments about Liverpool.

And a Michael Owen -Vs- Tevez goals in the Champions League (a comp Tevez is not playing in) scoreboard.

What about that sig is designed NOT to annoy people & get a reaction out of them?

I don't know a lot about you or your up bringing but for me and just about everyone i know who played football or enjoys football as any form of hobby accepts and partakes in a bit of banter.

I grew up in a household with man city fans united fans and weekends were based around football playing and watching and having a bit of "craic" monday in school after united v liverpool was great for one side and a living hell for the others you took the abuse when it was your turn and you hoped you'll be on the other side the next game.

at the end of the day everyone was just having the banter.

i don't think bringing up subjects like people's sig's which you do on a regular basis a major issue, you're turning it into one. where the majority just ignore.

there's a fine line that needs to be walked here, it's in no way abusive nor is it offensive, and really if people can't get over such a small thing they really have no business whatsoever in entering a a highly emotionally charged discussions which football tends to generate.

I would have thought a liverpool/united fan more than anyone would understand this. It's also becoming very tiring discussing the same mundane issues.

if there's problems on the forum, it's not because of people having a bit of banter with there sigs.

on other note you're choosing to assume something about the sig and looking for something that really isn't there.

Mr Alan

Ntl, i have no issue with your sig. i only commented on it after you made a post where you tried to make out that you dont intentionally wind people up, only voice your opinions & always back it up with well thought out reasons. your sig begs to differ & although pretty tame is designed purely to annoy people...something you claimed you don't do.

Mr Alan

The Muppet wrote: »

I'm not sure what your saying here is it that only Livepool fans or fans that have made a number of positive posts about the club are entitled to criticise them????? If thats it I don't agree.

This is not a Liverpool/Man United/ whatever club forum. It's a General Football forum where everyones opinion should be equal, there are numerous dedicated forums if people really want to be protected from criticism of their Clubs/Managers etc .

again, i agree with you. did you even read my first contribution to this thread?!

my point was that the mods were taking a new approach this season whereby person who made the comment/thread the comment was made in/reaction it was likely to get.....were relevant when judging if something merited an infraction. its a lack of consistantcy with this that annoys me.

ntlbell

Mr Alan wrote: »

Ntl, i have no issue with your sig. i only commented on it after you made a post where you tried to make out that you dont intentionally wind people up, only voice your opinions & always back it up with well thought out reasons. your sig begs to differ.

I don't see what the sig has to do with it.

I didn't say I don't wind people up, naturally my opinions will wind people up who don't agree with them if they're the type who can't control their own emotions.

Considering I'm a united fan those opinions will be of liverpool fans more than anyone else.

I can't wind you up, nor can i wind anyone else up.

people wind themselves up I have no control over their actions or responses.

I was just trying to point out the differences from your average troll to the _majority_ of my statements. will be backed up and i will do the best to help someone else understand why i have them and they're entitled to show me why they have theirs.

if we're open to it, we both might actually learn something.

But again, I'm trying to give more of an understanding, and you're more interested into trying to make me look bad.