How's our driving...?(forum feedback)

ntlbell

here is a perfect example of what's wrong about this place and won't be dealt with and causes a lot more problems than the normal banter

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=62896779&postcount=1326

what does it add to the thread?

it's a deliberate attempt and inflaming others

and yet it constantly goes on without a word of warning

it's also back seat modding.

and it's usually the same one or two who do it.

this is far more harmful to relations on the forum than a lot of the other nonsense that gets talked about

Mr Alan

STOP! seriously, don't be trying to paint yourself out as the victim here.

The simple fact is that you love nothing more than winding up rival fans, depending on the weekend thats in it, you'll be found in the match thread of whatever rival loses.

you disappeared from the forum for a lot of the end of last season when Liverpool clocked up win after win. But rest assured as soon a bad run or result comes along, you'll be there to stir it & bait & troll or watever it is you call it. you may call it banter & thats fair enough, i couldnt really give a **** cause i dont really use match threads so don't clash with you as much as most, but rest assured, what you do is the very definition of trolling in my book & that is how you differ from the likes of Boggles, who i have no issue with at all really.

i dont mean this to sound like a personal dig, cause i have no doubt that you're probably a sound fella in real life. but when it comes to this place & match, troll is exactly what you do.

re: me being over sensitive & not able for banter....my aul man & brother both support Utd. i am very familiar with what banter is & you in match threads doesnt fit that description imo.

copacetic

ntlbell wrote: »

here is a perfect example of what's wrong about this place and won't be dealt with and causes a lot more problems than the normal banter

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=62896779&postcount=1326

what does it add to the thread?

it's a deliberate attempt and inflaming others

and yet it constantly goes on without a word of warning

it's also back seat modding.

and it's usually the same one or two who do it.

this is far more harmful to relations on the forum than a lot of the other nonsense that gets talked about

rubbish, thats two of the worst trolls on boards having it pointed out to them. It's what you want to happen and strive for with almost every post, Most likely you or another troll will now report the post in the hope of having action taken against the poster. Standard troll practise across boards. It drives reasonable posters to distraction or away from the forum altogether.


Anyway, trying to get back on topic..

It appears to me at least from the response that most people think the forum is going pretty well. Apart from that, what I would call the cabal of trolls think they should be allowed to continue doing exactly what they are doing, and a number of other posters think they shouldn't be allowed to.

It appears from that it is only a minority who feel strongly about that issue either way.

Thanx 4 The Fish

Gents, this is not a place for having a go at each other. If you want to suggest a change to the fourm feel free, we can discuss it and see if it is a flyer. If not then please vote (or don't) and have a read.

_blank_

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote: »

Gents, this is not a place for having a go at each other.

Well, you may want to tell your co-mod that.

Twice in as many weeks Lloyd has pulled threads off topic by having petty arguments with posters (this thread here, and a CL match thread where we got pages and pages of shít talk more suited to the gambling forum. I've stopped reporting the mods posts in here as nothing is ever done apart from snide comments in the Reported Posts Forum from certain mods).

It's not the first time, and it's certainly not the last, that mods have gotten away with breaches of the charter.

*************************************

How do I think the mods are doing?

I think most of them are doing very well, some OK, some are bad mods. Just like in every forum.

What should change?

The posters, in the main.

Tell the "you can't ever say anything bad about my club, or I'll call you a troll" merchants to STFU, because, frankly, they are worse than the trolls with their constant whingeing and calls of trollery. IF you think someone is a troll I don't care. Report the damn post, let those charged with dealing with the issues deal with the issues. It's not your place to do so. Use your ignore button and get on with your life. If you think someone is a saddo for just posting rediculous opinions to rile people up, then, in fact, you are an even bigger idiot and saddo for letting them rile you up.

If you think someone saying that your favourite player/manager is a bit shít is on a wind up, then report them and put them on ignore.

It's. That. Simple.

But please, stop being such a crybaby.

But what happens then? You actually start reporting posts, and then the mods start getting uppity at you. Well wtf are we supposed to do?

Also, a weeks ban for an infraction is a total uver-reaction and a joke.

Villain

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote: »

Gents, this is not a place for having a go at each other. If you want to suggest a change to the fourm feel free, we can discuss it and see if it is a flyer. If not then please vote (or don't) and have a read.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Doesn't matter. The point is that we've now derailed this thread nicely, and the nature of the back and forth encapsulates what we have been discussing.

Umm I think the mods might need to sit down and start singing from the same hymn sheet tbh.

Maybe we should have a sub forum for those fans who can't handle having a player they support called average or told they are not a big club because tbh if you can't handle that type of opinion/banter soccer might not be the sport you should be supporting

Mr Alan

perhaps, or maybe we should be allowed abuse people who say ridiculous **** & dress it up as an "opinion".

ctrl-alt-delete

I think on the whole a great job is done here considering the topic being discussed.

However the odd time you see the odd slip up, take for instance the thread on Newcastle's stadium being re-named.

The rules, if remaining don't always seem to be evenly applied. I wouldn't call for more rules though, it's working fine at the moment.

Handsome Bob

Sometimes it really makes me wonder. I do doubt myself, because what I deem to be trolling for the most part comes from a specific set of fans. So inevitably it makes me question myself about whether I am too sensitive in regards to the opinions of these fans.

But then I think about the other forum I talk about soccer on. It's predominatly an American forum. They have, unlike me, learned to love soccer. That's in stark contrast to me, I never really had a chance, I was born into the red of Liverpool. The funny thing is though, I prefer to converse with these guys about soccer every day of the week and twice on Sunday. They don't understand the concept of tribalism, they only want to talk about what they see with no BS.

When we have the Man U -v- Liverpool debates, there is not one element of underhandedness. We don't look to piss each other off. We only want to talk football. When you talk to people like that, you'd be amazed at how much easier it is to concede the weaknesses of your own team. It's honest, and there are no alterior motives.

I ask you all, why can't we be the same? Only a sad person with nothing better to do than to rile people up would describe my converses with my American friends as "boring". As I said, I gain miles more fufillment from my converses with them than I do with people on this forum. There's nothing boring about it.

I just think that people on here need to be honest with themselves, and ask themselves whether or not their beefs with other teams are genuine or whether they are just looking to pile misery on rival fans. We're all fans of this beautiful game, it's high time we started to treat each other in a manner worthy of such a game.

_blank_

Oh one other thing, which may seem at odds with my last post, but anyway.

I think there is absolutely no place for phrases like "Fat Spanish Waiter" "Ole Whiskey Nose" and the likes.

If I want playground name-calling nonsense, I'll read the F365 Forum, thanks.

Boggles

Mr Alan wrote: »

perhaps, or maybe we should be allowed abuse people who say ridiculous **** & dress it up as an "opinion".

Why would you want to draw that much abuse on yourself?

Mr Alan

i was thinking more along the lines of people who say a football transfer is evil, or that ferdinand is ****e, or that Hypia was an average player or other such ****e that either HAS to be trolling, or just showing how stoopid some people are, in which case we should be allowed abuse away

Boggles

Mr Alan wrote: »

i was thinking more along the lines of people who say a football transfer is evil,

Who said that?

Panthro

i think the mods are a shower of bastids...
but i dont know them on a personal level so all i can say is that they do a smashing job modding us shower of joe soaps on here every day of the week.
(peter cech would be proud of that save!)

keep it up buckos!:D

Draupnir

Let's call a spade a spade here, the problem is United fans and Liverpool fans giving each other stick and generally trying to take the urine out of each other. Can any genuinely say that is unexpected behaviour?

It's like having the internet in 1979 and having a terrorism forum with members from the IRA and UVF. No matter what, these people will not get on.

Until people can leave aside their club affiliation when posting, this problem is not going away.

Regarding the current moderation, it goes from excellent on the part of some moderators to downright disgraceful at times from others.

Villain

Des wrote: »

Oh one other thing, which may seem at odds with my last post, but anyway.

I think there is absolutely no place for phrases like "Fat Spanish Waiter" "Ole Whiskey Nose" and the likes.

If I want playground name-calling nonsense, I'll read the F365 Forum, thanks.

You see I understand that and I agree with it, but I sometimes wonder if people who post here have actually been to PL matches because that kind of the over the top banter is part and parcel of the game.

I would agree thats not right and the game should be cleaned up but thats like looking for world peace, so I think a happy medium is what is required which to be fair is hard on the mods because they can look biased or not consistent but like the game we all follow thats part of the game. Having to see Refs every week be inconsistent and appear biased you would think we would be use to it.

The mods need to use common sense and if they think someone is only having banter or expressing an opinion they believe then users should accept that and move on very much like when your team has been denied what you think was a clean peno

ntlbell

Mr Alan wrote: »

perhaps, or maybe we should be allowed abuse people who say ridiculous **** & dress it up as an "opinion".

I'm not sure you or many others could handle that sort of torrent of abuse tbh.

Des

Des wrote: »

Oh one other thing, which may seem at odds with my last post, but anyway.

I think there is absolutely no place for phrases like "Fat Spanish Waiter" "Ole Whiskey Nose" and the likes.

If I want playground name-calling nonsense, I'll read the F365 Forum, thanks.

A tad obvious

_blank_

Villain wrote: »

You see I understand that and I agree with it, but I sometimes wonder if people who post here have actually been to PL matches because that kind of the over the top banter is part and parcel of the game.

I've called a certain ex-manager a fat bastard to his face in a football ground before, and he gave me the "wanker" sign back.

I know very well how to banter in a football ground.

And it wasn't the Premier League, or even the Premier Division.

but the Soccer Forum is not a football ground.

Although, I do know what you are saying, but I disagree.

The things that get said between fans in a ground/the pub/mates gaf, this place is in the halfpenny place tbh, but people can't accept it in the written word from strangers they've never met. Even if they'd banter back with strangers in a ground/pub whatever, it never happens here.

ntlbell

Des wrote: »

I think there is absolutely no place for phrases like "Fat Spanish Waiter" "Ole Whiskey Nose" and the likes.

If I want playground name-calling nonsense, I'll read the F365 Forum, thanks.

was this not all put to bed a long time ago?

I remember getting banned for calling a ref an aul b**lox or something.

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

We should organise boxing matches v the posters you dislike the most :cool:

The Muppet

Mr Alan wrote: »

i was thinking more along the lines of people who say a football transfer is evil, or that ferdinand is ****e, or that Hypia was an average player or other such ****e that either HAS to be trolling, or just showing how stoopid some people are, in which case we should be allowed abuse away

Really Al, you can't seriously be suggesting that personal abuse should be allowed from any quarter under any circumstances. Why do you feel the need to change anyones opinion on any issue? How about debating these opinions and when stalemate is reached agree to differ and move on.

If you don't mine me saying I read a lot of your posts in the various United threads in my absence from here and there was no difference between a lot of them and what you are complaining about here.

Mr Alan

when i started on this forum, i was a horrid poster and i did partake in the kind of thing i am giving out about here. i agree mupppet. however, thats not the case anymore, and hasnt been for quite a long time.

i'm not saying abuse should be allowed, just throwing around ideas i also dont think people should be allowed say stuff that is clearly intended purely to wind people up. its a tough one to be able to mod effectively.

ntlbell

Mr Alan wrote: »

when i started on this forum, i was a horrid poster and i did partake in the kind of thing i am giving out about here. i agree mupppet. however, thats not the case anymore, and hasnt been for quite a long time.

i'm not saying abuse should be allowed, just throwing around ideas i also dont think people should be allowed say stuff that is clearly intended purely to wind people up. its a tough one to be able to mod effectively.

If I can find one post where it was intended purley to wind people up from you in the last 4 weeks.

will you wear my sig ?;)

Thanx 4 The Fish

Des wrote: »

Well, you may want to tell your co-mod that.

Well, you may want to stop assuming that I was not talking to everyone on this thread.

Warning stands, cut it out or we shut the thread element down and just allow a vote.

The Muppet

Mr Alan wrote: »

when i started on this forum, i was a horrid poster and i did partake in the kind of thing i am giving out about here. i agree mupppet. however, thats not the case anymore, and hasnt been for quite a long time.

i'm not saying abuse should be allowed, just throwing around ideas i also dont think people should be allowed say stuff that is clearly intended purely to wind people up. its a tough one to be able to mod effectively.

Fair enough Al, you still have your moments.


How can you tell if someone is just trying to wind somone up? It's impossible to mod properly, The only solution is for users themselves not allow themselve be wound up over what they percieve to be stupid comments .

Mr Alan

its not really impossible. there will be some incidents where it is quite obvious.

for example, if someone says Rio Ferdnand is ****e. they don't deserve a right to post on the forum & a ban would be fitting!

similarly if someone says that Liverpool were not involved in the title race last season...they are quite clearly on the wind up & should also be dealt with

Boggles

Mr Alan wrote: »

similarly if someone says that Liverpool were not involved in the title race last season...they are quite clearly on the wind up & should also be dealt with

If someone says from the start of the season that A team has no chance of winning the title and gives reasons for it and is ultimately proved correct, how can that person be punished for being correct?

Mr Alan

here aint the place to talk about that boggles, we'll talk about it in the more relevant thread.

JPA

You know sometimes there are posts and you have to wonder if the poster actually believes what they just wrote or if they're on the wind up. I suppose this is kind of the definition of trolling though.

I know people, my brother for example, who can not think rationally about rival teams or players, he cannot accept a rival player or team is good, he is filled with absolute vitriol, it's kind of funny sometimes but also a tad headwrecking.
It's these kind of people who can cause trouble on forums.

So there is genuine trolling and then genuine belief that a team, manager or player is crap.

The Muppet

Mr Alan wrote: »

its not really impossible. there will be some incidents where it is quite obvious.

for example, if someone says Rio Ferdnand is ****e. they don't deserve a right to post on the forum & a ban would be fitting!

similarly if someone says that Liverpool were not involved in the title race last season...they are quite clearly on the wind up & should also be dealt with

I wouldn't want anyone banned for saying Ferdinand is ****e, I would simply debunk their argument and let everyone make up their own opinion then. Some people have strange opinions, it is a waste of time and energy trying to change them. The same applies in all scenarios.

Villain

lol that post reminds me of an old topic Muppet, remember me and you debating Keane and McCarthy? lol

The Muppet

Villain wrote: »

lol that post reminds me of an old topic Muppet, remember me and you debating Keane and McCarthy? lol

Jezz how could I forget. There was quite a few threads on the subject at the time



BTW. He sent him Home

Where's my tape?

Mr. Presentable

The Muppet wrote: »

The only solution is for users themselves not allow themselve be wound up over what they percieve to be stupid comments .

Holy crap! I am in bed with The Muppet :eek:

The Muppet

nipplenuts wrote: »

Holy crap! I am in bed with The Muppet :eek:

Brace yourself...................:eek:

Villain

rarnes1 wrote: »

A soccer thunderdome would be a good idea.

I think rarnes1 might just have found a solution

flahavaj

The main problem on this forum is that literally everything boils down to a giant d*ck waving competition between United and Liverpool supporters.

Even THIS thread has turned into that for christ sakes.

And re the mods, in general they do an excellent job in these very trying circumstances.

Except for LuckyLoyd who stands out like a sore thumb. He has a very annoying habit of taking threads off topic and getting embroiled in flame wars with posters. (see his multi page contribution to the Liverpool Vs Lyon match thrtead, which as always went totally uncersored by the other mods). He's even engaged in needless agruing in this VERY thread.

Morzadec

Draupnir wrote: »

Let's call a spade a spade here, the problem is United fans and Liverpool fans giving each other stick and generally trying to take the urine out of each other. Can any genuinely say that is unexpected behaviour?

It's like having the internet in 1979 and having a terrorism forum with members from the IRA and UVF. No matter what, these people will not get on.

Until people can leave aside their club affiliation when posting, this problem is not going away.

Regarding the current moderation, it goes from excellent on the part of some moderators to downright disgraceful at times from others.

What you say is true enough this is where the majority of crap comes from.

But it doesn't have to be this way if posters could have a bit more cop on and be a bit more objective with their views regardless of team allegiance. I dunno some would argue this is against the tribalism of supporting a football team, but the whole point of this forum and it's rules is to encourage sensible and intelligent debate which tribalism and blind loyalty doesn't encourage.

I have a couple of United fan mates and I'm a Liverpool fan. We don't have the kind of ridiculous arguments that go on here, mainly because we can look at situations rationally and because we know that if we spouted some of the blinkered biased bull that is put out by some posters here we would lose all respect as football fans. And rightly so.

Things can get heated but always along a line of rational thought. No one makes comments that are deliberately inflammatory or not based on coherent argument.

There are posters on these boards who view bending to any sort of middle ground as a sign of weakness or defeat (or a sign of betrayal of their team perhaps?), rather than as a sign of an intelligent and reasoned football fan.

This is the reason for the crap that goes on. Either this or these posters just really really enjoy annoying other posters and causing mayham.

LuckyLloyd

Des wrote: »

Well, you may want to tell your co-mod that.

Twice in as many weeks Lloyd has pulled threads off topic by having petty arguments with posters (this thread here, and a CL match thread where we got pages and pages of shít talk more suited to the gambling forum. I've stopped reporting the mods posts in here as nothing is ever done apart from snide comments in the Reported Posts Forum from certain mods).

It's not the first time, and it's certainly not the last, that mods have gotten away with breaches of the charter.

flahavaj wrote: »

Except for LuckyLoyd who stands out like a sore thumb. He has a very annoying habit of taking threads off topic and getting embroiled in flame wars with posters. (see his multi page contribution to the Liverpool Vs Lyon match thrtead, which as always went totally uncersored by the other mods). He's even engaged in needless agruing in this VERY thread.

Des brought up the Lyon thread before and I ignored it. My posts weren't off topic by a huge stretch. I was discussing the match and the potential outcome of it in the match thread provided for the match being discussed. What's the problem with that? I didn't insult anyone, or breach the charter rules in any of my posts. And I stand by my opinion (and discussed the matter further in another section of boards).

However, even if I was in the wrong in that instance, you've found two examples where I have got "embroiled in flame wars with posters". Two times is hardly a habit now, is it? I stand by my record as a poster and moderator on this forum. As moderators, we don't agree down the line on everything. That should be expected when there is such a large group of us. I personally differ with Thanx4thefish on what type of posts we should want to have in this very thread. Asking us to "sing off the same hymn sheet" is pointless. So what if we disagree on something?

LuckyLloyd

Villain wrote: »

I think rarnes1 might just have found a solution

No it isn't a good solution, and yes we have discussed it at length before as a moderating team. There are numerous reasons why it would be a bad idea:

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I've thought about this, and I've decided I'm against the idea. In the way that stuff like the OTT thread / the draft thread proved to be a unifying force for good in getting posters to post at each other without worrying about petty club rivalries; I think this idea would have a similarly powerful effect in the opposite direction. We would be creating a space for users to tear strips off one another. And, as much as we would like to believe that people would be smart enough to post in one manner here; and another over there - our userbase has never been the most adult and mature when it comes to letting things go and starting each day / thread / season afresh.

Secondly, we would be reducing the ramifications of a ban from the forum. "Ah shur, I'll talk like I really want to talk in the Thunderdrome". Now, you might say "well, let's carry bans from here over there". But if you go down that road, then you are allowing moderating decisions to have an effect on that thread and, as such, tacitly involving us in it.

flahavaj

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Des brought up the Lyon thread before and I ignored it. My posts weren't off topic by a huge stretch. I was discussing the match and the potential outcome of it in the match thread provided for the match being discussed. What's the problem with that? I didn't insult anyone, or breach the charter rules in any of my posts. And I stand by my opinion (and discussed the matter further in another section of boards).

However, even if I was in the wrong in that instance, you've found two examples where I have got "embroiled in flame wars with posters". Two times is hardly a habit now, is it? I stand by my record as a poster and moderator on this forum. As moderators, we don't agree down the line on everything. That should be expected when there is such a large group of us. I personally differ with Thanx4thefish on what type of posts we should want to have in this very thread. Asking us to "sing off the same hymn sheet" is pointless. So what if we disagree on something?

Two instances that came immediately to mind when I was typing earlier. And thats two times too many if you're a moderator on here. If the mods can't behave why should anyone else?

And the very least I would expect is that the mods "sing from the same hymn sheet." Consistency amongst mods is an absolute MUST surely to God. Otherwise we'll just have anarchy.

ntlbell

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

No it isn't a good solution, and yes we have discussed it at length before as a moderating team. There are numerous reasons why it would be a bad idea:

Sure members of the soccer forum can just go over to the thunderdome start a thread and rip shreds out of each other anyway??

5starpool

flahavaj wrote: »

Two instances that came immediately to mind when I was typing earlier. And thats two times too many if you're a moderator on here. If the mods can't behave why should anyone else?

And the very least I would expect is that the mods "sing from the same hymn sheet." Consistency amongst mods is an absolute MUST surely to God. Otherwise we'll just have anarchy.

It is rare that mods agree with everything the others do. There will always be some differences but the main thrust will generally be the same. Mods are entitled to opinions too in the same way that others are. I very much doubt that Lloyd abused anyone in thread here, without having read the thread in question myself.

I still hold the opinion that modding by template is not a good thing, never mind the fact that I doubt each knows every modding action of the others, so there will be inconsistencies in every forums modding if you look I'm sure.

LuckyLloyd

flahavaj wrote: »

Two instances that came immediately to mind when I was typing earlier. And thats two times too many if you're a moderator on here. If the mods can't behave why should anyone else?

And the very least I would expect is that the mods "sing from the same hymn sheet." Consistency amongst mods is an absolute MUST surely to God. Otherwise we'll just have anarchy.

It's two times where I've stepped out of line as per your perception / opinion. I don't think I need to say anymore on that.

As for "consistency". We are not robots, and we will not act as such. We discuss everything as a team. We look to each other for advice and assistance, and we often have to bow to the majority opinion and change an individual decision / our broader style on that basis. But the reality is that we do differ in certain areas. That is inevitable. And when the forum is as large as it is, when our schedules are as diverse as they are - the reality is that there will be little inconsistencies in what we do from time to time. This is something that we all have to accept. It is unavoidable human nature. And when we are unpaid volunteers, there is little or no motivation for us to put in the extreme extra effort that would be required for us to completely eradicate / substantially cut down on the current rate of inconsistency.

LuckyLloyd

ntlbell wrote: »

Sure members of the soccer forum can just go over to the thunderdome start a thread and rip shreds out of each other anyway??

It wouldn't last long.

ntlbell

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

It wouldn't last long.

huh?

I'm saying, if for example me and you want to go now for leather we can.

there's nothing to stop us.

the thunderdome has no baring on here

as long as what happens there stays there

right?

LuckyLloyd

ntlbell wrote: »

huh?

I'm saying, if for example me and you want to go now for leather we can.

there's nothing to stop us.

the thunderdome has no baring on here

as long as what happens there stays there

right?

Wrong. Given the particular nature of the soccer forum, I have little doubt that the Admins would be currently unwilling to allow such threads in the Thunderdrome.

ntlbell

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

It's two times where I've stepped out of line as per your perception / opinion. I don't think I need to say anymore on that.

As for "consistency". We are not robots, and we will not act as such. We discuss everything as a team. We look to each other for advice and assistance, and we often have to bow to the majority opinion and change an individual decision / our broader style on that basis. But the reality is that we do differ in certain areas. That is inevitable. And when the forum is as large as it is, when our schedules are as diverse as they are - the reality is that there will be little inconsistencies in what we do from time to time. This is something that we all have to accept. It is unavoidable human nature. And when we are unpaid volunteers, there is little or no motivation for us to put in the extreme extra effort that would be required for us to completely eradicate / substantially cut down on the current rate of inconsistency.

having differences is not an issue.

having different oponions is not an issue

having different personalities is not an issue.

The important thing for any "team" which is how i think anyway you should be is you collectivley decide on the best way forward and everyone stick to it.

you rattle out the differences and once you then DECIDE on something everyone rows in the same direction.

it's how any group of people move forward.

the problem is everyone's rowing in their own direction which brings an awful lot of inconsistency.

i feel like i'm charing a team meeting with interns in work


now going forward.

5starpool

How could they stop it Lloyd? Unless Thunderdome rules prevent soccer forum slagging matches between willing participants, then it's perfectly fine.

I was going to phrase this a bit differently, but I was afraid of ending up in ntlbells sig