Haye v Valuev

Rondolfus

Haye should not have won the title simply because he shouldn't have had a title shot this early in his heavyweight career. What happened to the idea of fighting your way to the title?? Does that only apply to non-British and American boxers?

He got a shot at the title because he's lucrative. IMO it would be like Fifa giving England a bye into the world cup final becuase they think they'll benefit financially from it.

We all know Valuev should have lost to Hollyfield, but would that have fit the script?? Did the promoters want Haye to fight Hollyfield??? Of course not, Hollyfield would have better chance of knocking Haye out than Valuev did. Another "Carl Thompson" episode would severly damage Hayes career and would cost the WBA and a string of promoters a lot of money.

They wanted Haye to defeat the "monster" that "defeated" the old legend Hollyfield. Thats the kind of thing that fills the wallet.


Boxing is getting more and more like WCW. Before we know it they'll introduce storylines.

EKRIUQ

I've watched the fight and I don't know weather it was a case of Haye winning the rounds or a case of Valuev losing the rounds. Valuev just seem to be a big loaf trying to catch Haye over the course of 12 rounds. Still the 116-112 was very generous to Haye. I couldn't see him winning 8 of the rounds. 6 maybe. Anyway it was an awful fight but Haye had his homework done and I wonder how much the injury to his arm effected the course of the fight.

menoscemo

Rondolfus wrote: »

Haye should not have won the title simply because he shouldn't have had a title shot this early in his heavyweight career. What happened to the idea of fighting your way to the title?? Does that only apply to non-British and American boxers?

Absolute Rubbish. So who should have got the shot at Valuev then? John Ruiz or Evander Holyfield? There are very few options out there at heavyweight nowadays and Haye has done as much as anyone to earn a title shot. He was independantly ranked as the no3 heavyweight in the world even before last night (behind the Klitschko brothers).

Rondolfus

menoscemo wrote: »

Absolute Rubbish. So who should have got the shot at Valuev then? John Ruiz or Evander Holyfield? There are very few options out there at heavyweight nowadays and Haye has done as much as anyone to earn a title shot. He was independantly ranked as the no3 heavyweight in the world even before last night (behind the Klitschko brothers).

How is it rubbish??? Hollyfield did get a shot at Valuev and according to most people (except the judges) beat him.

Before the fight Haye was ranked 6th. Valuev was 12th and WBA champion.
http://www.eastsideboxing.com/boxing-rankings.htm

Even these rankings are a Joke! How can a man who only fought 3 fights in the Heavyweight division be ranked as 6th??? Does that strike you as being at little bit odd??

Haye should not have got a title fight so early.It was all down to money. I'd love to see if Haye was from somewhere like Uzbekistan would he have been able to skip the que. He is living off his cruiserweight reputation. IMO he is a good boxer, however , I think their should be better regulations put in place for title fights.

Haye fought three more heavyweight fights than me ( and I don't even box) and was given a title shot. lol

In the long term Haye will suffer from taking the short cut to the top. He is no way near ready to fight either klitschko.

Big Ears

Rondolfus wrote: »

Haye should not have won the title simply because he shouldn't have had a title shot this early in his heavyweight career. What happened to the idea of fighting your way to the title?? Does that only apply to non-British and American boxers?

He got a shot at the title because he's lucrative. IMO it would be like Fifa giving England a bye into the world cup final becuase they think they'll benefit financially from it.

We all know Valuev should have lost to Hollyfield, but would that have fit the script?? Did the promoters want Haye to fight Hollyfield??? Of course not, Hollyfield would have better chance of knocking Haye out than Valuev did. Another "Carl Thompson" episode would severly damage Hayes career and would cost the WBA and a string of promoters a lot of money.

They wanted Haye to defeat the "monster" that "defeated" the old legend Hollyfield. Thats the kind of thing that fills the wallet.


Boxing is getting more and more like WCW. Before we know it they'll introduce storylines.

I get the feeling you have quite a distaste for Mr.Haye.
Going back to the old 'things used to be different' argument, when in truth they weren't.

Back in 1970 Bob Foster(then Light-Heavyweight champion) went straight into a fight with the Heavyweight champion of the World(Joe Frazier), he was knocked out in 2 rounds btw.

Michael Spinks went from being Light-Heavyweight champion straight into a fight with Larry Holmes, he won.

Georges Carpentier went being Light-heavyweight champion straight into fighting Jack Dempsey for the Heavyweight title. Dempsey stopped him in 4.

Bob Fitzsimmons went from Middleweight champion straight into a fight for the Heavyweight title against our own Peter Maher, and won.

Roy Jones went from holding multiple Light-Heavyweight belts into a fight with John Ruiz for the WBA Heavyweight title and won.

Occasionally fighters would go the Billy Conn/Evander Holyfield way and build themselves into a title shot, however very few Light-Heavyweights/Cruiserweights managed to move up that way and stay winning long enough for their title shot.

Haye was the Cruiserweight champion of the World, he beat 2 Heavyweights(one a decent journeyman, the other a former 10 top fighter) and took on a man you could rank at the very highest 3rd in the division. Valuev held a 'version' of the Heavyweight title but was seen by far as the weakest man who did and Haye fighting him having been Cruiserweight champion and then 2 fights at Heavyweight is not unusual, or extreme or even out of place. If anything things like that are less likely to happen now than in the past are now.


You seem to think this is all one big conspiracy......well this is the boxing forum not the conspiracy theory forum, and here we don't like to deal in crazy.

menoscemo

Rondolfus wrote: »

Before the fight Haye was ranked 6th. Valuev was 12th and WBA champion.
http://www.eastsideboxing.com/boxing-rankings.htm

Even these rankings are a Joke! How can a man who only fought 3 fights in the Heavyweight division be ranked as 6th??? Does that strike you as being at little bit odd??

Yes the ring had Haye 6th and Boxrec, which is maybe even more independant had him as 3rd. He beat two decent heavyweights- a lot more than Holyfield or Ruiz have done to earn a shot. Also coming to heavyweight as the undisputed cruiserweght champion has to count for quite a lot. I mean did you hear anyone complaining when Calzaghe moved from Super Middleweight straight into a fight with Bernard Hopkins at Light Heavyweight? Did he not have to earn his shot as well?
Haye moving from cruiserweight to heavyweight is effectively the same thing.

Rondolfus

Big Ears wrote: »

You seem to think this is all one big conspiracy......well this is the boxing forum not the conspiracy theory forum, and here we don't like to deal in crazy.

Lol yea because the idea of boxing being corrupt is sooo crazy :rolleyes:

I never said things used to be better. I'm just pointing out that the inconsistancy needs to be addressed. Just becuase it "always happens" doesn't make it right.

Haye was handed the fight last night and now everybody is saying "how his tactics" were so good. IMO neither Valuev or Haye are worthy champions, however I am coming down harder on Haye becuase he is being presented as some type of Ali figure by his followers despite the fact he is still not proven in the Heavy Weight division ( despite winning the WBA title!!) How many other sports can you win a title and still be unproven in the division?

Lets be honest, his tactics last night were far from "genius" as some people here are claiming. He was faced with a giant slow boxer, so he ran away for 11 rounds and threw a few punches in the 12th. Wow what a revealation.

Maybe we should put him in the boxing hall of fame now!!

menoscemo

Valuev was always going to be an awkward fight, given his sheer size. Haye fought a good fight. Nobody is calling him genius,it is the same fight Chagaev and Holyfield fought against Valuev. It was effective; Valuev literally didn't land a thing on Haye the whole night. I would definately have liked to see Haye throw a few more punches at times, but if he broke his right hand in the 3rd as has been suggested, then fair enough for leaving the big assault to the last round.
Against more conventional sized heavyweights, I think Haye will be very exciting and excellent for the division. Look through some of his cruiserweight fights and you will see his style is normally very crowd pleasing. He certainly has the power as evidenced by the 12th rd last night.
I think he has to fight a mandatory against Ruiz next and I for one predict Haye to knock him out like TUa did many years ago. Ruiz has been hanging around the heavyweight title sceen like a wart for 10 years now and hopefully Haye can send him into retirement.

Rondolfus

menoscemo wrote: »

I think he has to fight a mandatory against Ruiz next and I for one predict Haye to knock him out like TUa did many years ago. Ruiz has been hanging around the heavyweight title sceen like a wart for 10 years now and hopefully Haye can send him into retirement.

Yea I think Haye will finish Ruiz quite easily prob with a TKO. However stranger things have happened in boxing. Thankfully the chances of it going to the "judges" are slim.

colly10

I don't see how anyone could give this fight to anyone but Haye. Haye didn't land alot but Valuev landed practically nothing. You don't win fights by hitting shadows and landing loads on the gloves. All the meaningful shots came from Haye. Compubox numbers will prove me right

ragg

I thought it was a good performance by Haye - Valuev only landed a handful of shts all fight - I would have like to see haye press the advantage a bit more - he really rocked him towards the end & i think he had valuevs number from early on. would have been good to see him press the advantage a little more

fintonie

any one got a link to see the fight im stuck out in the sticks

walshb

Big Ears wrote: »

I get the feeling you have quite a distaste for Mr.Haye.
Going back to the old 'things used to be different' argument, when in truth they weren't.

Back in 1970 Bob Foster(then Light-Heavyweight champion) went straight into a fight with the Heavyweight champion of the World(Joe Frazier), he was knocked out in 2 rounds btw.

Michael Spinks went from being Light-Heavyweight champion straight into a fight with Larry Holmes, he won.

Georges Carpentier went being Light-heavyweight champion straight into fighting Jack Dempsey for the Heavyweight title. Dempsey stopped him in 4.

Bob Fitzsimmons went from Middleweight champion straight into a fight for the Heavyweight title against our own Peter Maher, and won.

Roy Jones went from holding multiple Light-Heavyweight belts into a fight with John Ruiz for the WBA Heavyweight title and won.

Occasionally fighters would go the Billy Conn/Evander Holyfield way and build themselves into a title shot, however very few Light-Heavyweights/Cruiserweights managed to move up that way and stay winning long enough for their title shot.

Haye was the Cruiserweight champion of the World, he beat 2 Heavyweights(one a decent journeyman, the other a former 10 top fighter) and took on a man you could rank at the very highest 3rd in the division. Valuev held a 'version' of the Heavyweight title but was seen by far as the weakest man who did and Haye fighting him having been Cruiserweight champion and then 2 fights at Heavyweight is not unusual, or extreme or even out of place. If anything things like that are less likely to happen now than in the past are now.


You seem to think this is all one big conspiracy......well this is the boxing forum not the conspiracy theory forum, and here we don't like to deal in crazy.

Don't forgert Pete Rademacher who fought Patterson for the title straight after the Olymic games of 1956; his first PRO fight. 1957!

menoscemo

fintonie wrote: »

any one got a link to see the fight im stuck out in the sticks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPh73I-kRHU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmUt3x62EuI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ApiGJttsIQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byD77jNuvqI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZuNC6v0YFI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fgx_EBDUlOk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0DwrgnMj10

All German commentary. Much better because the english commentators were useless!!

spongeman

I did'nt agree with the result last night but to be honest I hope Haye fights the Vlads next.

He would steamroller Ruiz, that is a foregone conclusion. A completely pointless exercise.

nacho libre

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/boxing/8347139.stm

He really put the boot in to Valuev in the interview. He should be a bit more gracious imo.
After seeing him rock Valuev in the 12th, he is right that he has the power to knock out either of the klitschkos if he catches them clean. What he omits to mention is the fact that, unlike Valuev, both of them will really test his chin.

nacho libre

a good summary of the fight here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bendirs/2009/11/haye_does_what_he_has_to_do.html

Kess73

Maybe it is just me, but would anyone else love to see Wladimir Klitschko in with Valuev?


For some reason I would like to see if Wladimir can stop Valuev. I think he would stop him, although it could be a horrible fight to watch.



As for Ruiz -Haye. Haye should beat him, being young and faster, and most likely the bigger hitter, but Ruiz has a horrible spoiling style and can clinch almost like no other fighter.

If Haye does not get on top of him early on, then I see a terrible spoiling fight that could go the distance.

Frank Bullitt

nacho libre wrote: »

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/boxing/8347139.stm

He really put the boot in to Valuev in the interview. He should be a bit more gracious imo.
After seeing him rock Valuev in the 12th, he is right that he has the power to knock out either of the klitschkos if he catches them clean. What he omits to mention is the fact that, unlike Valuev, both of them will really test his chin.

But,either of the Klitschkos have that power also,and are bigger and maybe a bit faster than Haye.

siochain

Gintonious wrote: »

But,either of the Klitschkos have that power also,and are bigger and maybe a bit faster than Haye.

they are no way close to the pace or footwork of haye !!!

nacho libre

Gintonious wrote: »

But,either of the Klitschkos have that power also,and are bigger and maybe a bit faster than Haye.

yes, they both have the power to ko him and are far better boxers than Valuev, but they do not have speed of Haye. Haye has a greater chance against Wlad because of Wlad's suspect chin, so if Haye manages to land on him flush it's goodnight for Wlad. Wlad is terrified of being knocked out, so he uses his jab to keep fights at range and rarely engages in toe-to toe action.
So against Haye Wlad will be desperate to keep the fight at range but i see Haye's speed making that difficult.

I think Vitali will be the much harder fight for Haye. I could see Haye being battered round after round by Vitali.

Frank Bullitt

siochain wrote: »

they are no way close to the pace or footwork of haye !!!

Hmmmm maybe,im not sure how Haye would approach either one though,i think his speed was kinda glorified by Valuevs hilarious lack of it,we will see though,Haye still has to get some weight on him though.

Frank Bullitt

nacho libre wrote: »

yes, they both have the power to ko him and are far better boxers than Valuev, but they do not have speed of Haye. Haye has a greater chance against Wlad because of Wlad's suspect chin, so if Haye manages to land on him flush it's goodnight for Wlad. Wlad is terrified of being knocked out, so he uses his jab to keep fights at range and rarely engages in toe-to toe action.
So against Haye Wlad will be desperate to keep the fight at range but i see Haye's speed making that difficult.

I think Vitali will be the much harder fight for Haye. I could see Haye being battered round after round by Vitali.

Hayes chin is no iron joint either though

Draupnir

Haye took some good shots of Maccarinelli as far as I remember, who is not a great fighter but has big shots in his arsenal.

Frank Bullitt

Draupnir wrote: »

Haye took some good shots of Maccarinelli as far as I remember, who is not a great fighter but has big shots in his arsenal.

Nothing compared to a Klitschkos punch though, its like an hydraulic piston

nacho libre

Gintonious wrote: »

Hayes chin is no iron joint either though

yes, that's true. so against Wlad it would come down to who gets through first. although, you could not completely discount Haye knocking out Vitali either, because Haye showed against Valuev he has incredible power; stunning Valuev with a glancing shot from his weaker arm, while punching upwards to a great height. In saying that i would still favour Vitali to frustrate Haye and outwork him and knock him out in the early rounds.

mushykeogh

Johner wrote: »

So did you think Dirrell beat Froch then?

only seen the last 2 rounds but thought froch wsnt landing as much as dirrell, anyway, forwards backwards or sideways, if you land with your punches and dodge your oppenents you should win. Agression is all well and good but constantly coming forward and missing doesnt score points imo.

Reginald P. DuM

Roll on next Sunday morning..

blackbetty69

mushykeogh wrote: »

only seen the last 2 rounds but thought froch wsnt landing as much as dirrell, anyway, forwards backwards or sideways, if you land with your punches and dodge your oppenents you should win. Agression is all well and good but constantly coming forward and missing doesnt score points imo.

i missed that fight unfortunately.. do ye think froch is good enough to win it out?

Mullicker

I'm just a boxing fan, no boxing background and this is how i saw it. The rounds with 1 boxers name i thought were clear rounds.

1 haye
2 haye
3 haye
4 valuev/haye i.... valuev shade it
5 Valuev
6 valuev
7 haye/valuev .... haye shade it
8 haye/valuev
9 haye
10 valuev
11 haye/valuev
12 haye

116-114 haye.

Is there a round that you think was a clear valuev round that i have as a draw or haye round? there was a couple of rounds when both fighters done little, should i be giving valuev these rounds just because he is moving forward? i don't think so.

The fight was ****e. Imo haye won because he landed the better punches throughout and didn't get hit with much from valuev, valuev looked silly trying to land big shots and rarely landed clean shots. I don't know why people are raving on about this being a totally corrupt decision. I don't buy this argument that haye didn't do enough to win it, wtf did valuev do to retain it?

Jayob10

one thing that annoys me is how all the casual boxing fans love David Haye now. What a legend! best fighter I have seen in years! there are other divisions with far more exciting fights!

ginoginelli

Jaysus boxing is in a sorry state of affairs when that is the best they can come up with..

The mma strikeforce show on a few hours later ****ing blew it out of the water!

fintonie

mushykeogh wrote: »

only seen the last 2 rounds but thought froch wsnt landing as much as dirrell, anyway, forwards backwards or sideways, if you land with your punches and dodge your oppenents you should win. Agression is all well and good but constantly coming forward and missing doesnt score points imo.

up or down jasus they were the first ones invented

walshb

I saw very few clear rds for either man. The last rd was possibly the clearest, and even then, Haye was still bloody back peddling. I'm glad he won, as he sets up much more potentially exciting bouts. I wanna' see him go after Solis, whom he lost to in 2001 as an amateur in a cracking fight, where Haye almost had Solis OUT, before Solis clinically came back and broke Haye

The Davestator

TechnoPool wrote: »

i can see this being a terrible fight and haye winning on Pts.



lets hope im wrong!

^^^ Post 6 in this thread. - Respect!

Rob113

It was a poor fight to watch and Haye did just about enough to shade it. But to give up that height, reach and weight advantage and fight rounds 3 - 12 with a broken hand is in my eyes an unbelievable acheivement. He threw some good shots with the broken hand throughout the remainder of the fight which must have been exruciatingly painful. I dont think you can take anything away from him. He fought a good fight and stuck to a gameplan which he had to change early on in the fight.

nacho libre

Rob113 wrote: »

It was a poor fight to watch and Haye did just about enough to shade it. But to give up that height, reach and weight advantage and fight rounds 3 - 12 with a broken hand is in my eyes an unbelievable acheivement. He threw some good shots with the broken hand throughout the remainder of the fight which must have been exruciatingly painful. I dont think you can take anything away from him. He fought a good fight and stuck to a gameplan which he had to change early on in the fight.

yep, you'd want some amount of mental toughness to forgo that kind of pain for nine rounds. if he hadn't broken his hand it's quite likely the people complaining it was a boring fight wouldn't be doing so as Haye would knocked out Valuev long before the 12th round.

TherapyBoy

"...He got a shot at the title because he's lucrative. IMO it would be like Fifa giving England a bye into the world cup final seeding the play-off draw for the world cup finals because they think they'll benefit financially from it...."

[fixed it for you ]

lmaopml

So, commenting on last week etc. but it seems that Dan Rafael agrees with my earlier comments about there only being eight 'noteworthy' ( being the BIG word..lol.. ) weights in boxing...in the earlier years....

Here's the link...

http://www.espn.go.com/video/clip?id=4653136