Music & Lyrics.....discuss

Xavi6

No, not the dodgy Hugh Grant film.

I was thinking recently about lyrics and their importance to a song.

In the Biffy Clyro thread there's a bit of a debate about 'Mountains' and if it's a good song or not. Personally I think it's a brilliant tune without even considering the lyrics. Others think it's awful because of the lyrics.

Another example is Muse. They're my favourite band because of the epicness of the music, but their lyrics are far from great. I can overlook that if the music is good, which it is.

So basically I'm wondering how much do lyrics influence the music you listen to? Is it the most important element of a song or are they just secondary to a great riff/melody?

whatawaster

It's hard to say. I take it on a case by case basis.

Someone like Dylan would be very average (or certainly not remembered today) if he weren't hands down the greatest lyricist of all time.
So great lyrics can elevate average music to greatness.

Does it work the other way though?
I think great music with passable lyrics can be great. A lot of the beatles earlier stuff would come into this category. Not bad lyrics, but not for the most part anything that will stick in your head. That came later
Downright bad lyrics though make me want to turn off all but the greatest songs.

I think Bright Eyes, Ryan Adams, Arctic Monkeys and Pete Doherty are some of the best lyricists of today

Blur and Oasis are a good comparison to make. Loved them both back in the day, but Blurs clever lyrics and wordplay elevate them way above Oasis imo

rcaz

whatawaster wrote: »

Someone like Dylan would be very average (or certainly not remembered today) if he weren't hands down the greatest lyricist of all time.
So great lyrics can elevate average music to greatness.

Er, going electric at the Newport festival, alienating his folk following and provoking Pete Seeger to try to cut the stage power off with an axe? Nothing average about Bob Dylan, and I think you're saying it wouldn't be remembered today if it was released today. Bob Dylan was positively ****ing **** up in 1965, and that's why he's remembered.

I don't think lyrics have to be very complex, poetic or anything like that, just interesting. I really like Thom Yorke, Wayne Coyne, Stephin Merritt, David Byrne, Del Tha Funkee Homosapien... Apparently, around the time of Remain In Light, David Byrne would go into the studio with notebooks of half-baked ideas and make them into lyrics in front of the microphone. Thom Yorke adopted this approach around Kid A. Wayne and Stephin, I think, just write great pop songs. Nothing very complicated, just interested ideas expressed directly, delivered with rhythms and rhymes that just feel right - sometimes obvious, but still just... right.

S.M.B.

I think decent lyrics can elevate an album from just being good to greatness. Whereas poor lyrics can have a negative effect.

I think they have a massive part to play in adding to the tone of a song, something I find very important.

stovelid

Obviously, a song with great words and music is the most preferable.

Can easily handle a song with mediocre-to-crap lyrics if I like the music (most music I like falls into this category) but other than admiring the words, I wouldn't really listen to songs with good lyrics if I didn't like the music,

JerryHandbag

Speaking of Biffy Clyro Xavi6, the following lyrics from "Machines" mean a helluva lot to me...

Cause I’ve started falling apart I’m not savouring life
I’ve forgotten how good it could be to feel alive
(Take the pieces and build them skywards)

I'm usually not bothered with the lyrics and am much more of a tune/melody person, but sometimes a certain lyric will move me in a way that I just cant explain.

Creamy Goodness

have a feeling this thread was created as an aftermath to what i said about "mountains" having terrible lyrics.

for me simple lyrics don't make a song "crap" in my opinion, i'll give you a simple case.

weezer - undone (verse)

i'm me, maybe, god damn,i am.
i can, sing and, hear me, know me.

simplistic lyrics but the method in which they are delivered makes them 100 times more powerful than they are.

with mountains, it has some beautiful lyrics e.g.

'cause you tear us apart
with all the things you don't like
you can't understand, that i won't leave
'til we're finished here, and then you'll find out
where it all went wrong.

that to me is a part that has strong lyrics and delivered excellently with a real bite to it.

the chorus, is arguably the most important part of the song. some say it just has to be catchy and nothing else matters. a good chorus is one that's catchy, the mountains chorus melody is catchy, the melody sticks in your head. but in my opinion it's delivered poorly and quite predictable and is some of biffy clyro's worst lyrics especially when it's put up against lyrics from their back catalogue.

also jerryhandbag brings up a good point. lyrics and music are such subjective entities. what works for me may not work for anyone else.

TheStickyBandit

I honestly think lyrics are amazing the way there are so many songs in which people can relate to. I don't necesarilly thing they have to be extremly poetic or intelectual. A lyric that comes to mind is Des'ree's Life. it's absolute tripe;

Chorus:
Life, oh life, oh life, oh life,
doo, doot doot dooo.
Life, oh life, oh life, oh life,
doo, doot dooo

I'm afraid of the dark,
'specially when I'm in a park
And there's no-one else around,

Ooh, I get the shivers
I don't want to see a ghost,
It's a sight that I fear most
I'd rather have a piece of toast
And watch the evening news
(Repeat Chorus)

I'm a superstitious girl,
I'm the worst in the world
Never walk under ladders,
I keep a rabbit's tail

I'll take you up on a dare,
Anytime, anywhere
Name the place, I'll be there,
Bungee jumping, I don't care!
(Repeat Chorus)

life, doo, doot dooo
doo, doot dooo

So after all is said and done
I know I'm not the only one
Life indeed can be fun, if you really want to

Sometimes living out your dreams,
Ain't as easy as it seems
You wanna fly around the world,
In a beautiful balloon
(Repeat Chorus)



So that said a lyric just has to be bearable along with a good melody.

lordgoat

Lyrics lyrics lyrics. It's all about them for me. Elliott Smith is my drink of choice but notable notes go to Jeff Tweedy, Bright Eyes, Stipe for the bizarre older REM ones, Young, David Byrne, Leonard Cohen, Kevin Rowlands (Dexys never get enough credit).

Stephin Merritt is he in the magnetic fields right? I love that band too...

sock puppet

TheStickyBandit wrote: »

I honestly think lyrics are amazing the way there are so many songs in which people can relate to. I don't necesarilly thing they have to be extremly poetic or intelectual. A lyric that comes to mind is Des'ree's Life. it's absolute tripe;

I can't stand it when poor or average lyricists try to write this way. Idlewild are one of the worst culprits for it. It'd be almost enough to turn me off them. There's absolutely nothing wrong with simple, non-meaningful lyrics.

ElaElaElano

Good thread Xavi, as a writer myself I probably take too much heed of lyrics at times. I know when I'm writing songs I always place most of the emphasis on nailing the lyrics and just throw a few chords at them at the end.

With Biffy, I think a lot of the Puzzle lyrics were quite good contrary to what some say. They were nowhere near some of their earlier songs, granted, but in their case it was the music that let the record down for me. Where you had shift dynamics, obscure time signatures, and a lot of eeriness/experimentation on Vertigo and Infinity Land it seemed to be mostly straightforward rock on Puzzle.

As for other artists, it can depend sometimes. Two of my all time favourites are Elliott Smith and American Football, Smith has some really beautiful and brilliant lyrics whereas AF's were generally quite weak but compensated for with great riffs and harmonies.

I suppose different approaches work for different people.

Miguel_Sanchez

I find myself gravitating towards bands with good lyrics more often than not. Although having said that with an out and out old-fashioned rock or dance track, it can be just enough having great music.

My favourite singer I think is Bill Callahan, whose lyrics seem so simple but yet are so precise and convey so much. I'm also a fan of James Murphy from LCD Soundsystem, check out Someone Great from the Sounds of Silver album, that's good song writing right there.

I quite like Yoni Wolf's lyrics too, nice storytelling ability and again, catchy tunes. One of my all time favourite albums though is Van Morrison's Astral Weeks - even when you don't know exactly what he's referring to you can feel stories being spun around the tunes. Truly a genius piece of work.

But then again, I have been know to pogo to 'Take Me Out' by Franz Ferdinand or 'Hey Ya' by Outkast. The lyrics are hardly master crafted but they're great tunes.

Xavi6

Creamy Goodness wrote: »

have a feeling this thread was created as an aftermath to what i said about "mountains" having terrible lyrics.

What on earth gave you that idea? :pac:

Xavi6 wrote: »

In the Biffy Clyro thread there's a bit of a debate about 'Mountains' and if it's a good song or not. Personally I think it's a brilliant tune without even considering the lyrics. Others think it's awful because of the lyrics.

Cheers for the inspiration!

Bubs101

Personally, I consider good lyrics to be a bonus. If I'm at a concert I'll shout out the most inane things that are put down on paper if they're sung well and accompanied by a good song (although I draw the line at Mercury's in retrograde). Wilco, Elliot Smith, Bright Eyes, Death Cab and Willy Mason all have pretty good lyrics most of the time but that's never what I listen to them for or look out for. With alt and indie music it's low on my list of priorities.

If I'm listening to Wu Tang or Lil Wayne though it's a different matter

stiofain2005

For me lyrics are not very important. I honestly dont even notice what they are most of the time. All about the music and the melody for me.

JerryHandbag

I think listening to Noel Gallaghers self-confessed throwaway lyrics as a teenager made me have more respect for a tune rather than the words.

Him and Kurt Cobain.

whatawaster

JerryHandbag wrote: »

I think listening to Noel Gallaghers self-confessed throwaway lyrics as a teenager made me have more respect for a tune rather than the words.

Him and Kurt Cobain.

Kurt had some fine lyrics to be fair

“With eyes so dilated, I’ve become your pupil,
You taught me everything, without a poison apple,
The water is so yellow, I’m a healthy student,”

Terrific wordplay.

Not to mention this wonderful passage:

“My heart is broke
But I have some glue
help me inhale
And mend it with you
We'll float around
And hang out on clouds
Then we'll come down
And have a hangover”

JerryHandbag

Thats true, but I remember reading in his journals that he also useda just randomly pick lines of lyrics out of a hat and join them together to form a song! At least I'm pretty sure it was in his journals...

rcaz

JerryHandbag wrote: »

Thats true, but I remember reading in his journals that he also useda just randomly pick lines of lyrics out of a hat and join them together to form a song! At least I'm pretty sure it was in his journals...

Bowie did that too.

Dudess

Like others, I value music over lyrics, but there's one song which has a tune that I absolutely love, but the lyrics render it almost impossible for me to listen to it - due to them being so, so cringey: The Stranglers - Peaches

It got blasted for being sexist etc; for me though, it's not so much that, it's just the embarrassment of the sleazy lyrics, as if they're trying too hard to be blokey or something. Brilliant tune though - love that bassline.

By the way, I've moved this from Alt & Indie as it's more of a general music discussion.

Latchy

I love the music first but the beauty and simplicity of some lyrics can leave a lasting immpression .

I am a big fan of 60s 70s 80s stuff and off top of my head give 2 example of the power of lyrics . One is first verse of iDylans 'Masters of War ' ,the other is 3 lines from Norwegian Wood By (lennon ) Beatles

Masters of War

Come you masters of war
You that build the big guns
You that build the death planes
You that build all the bombs
You that hide behind walls
You that hide behind desks
I just don't want you to know
I can see through your masks

Norwegian wood

once had a girl, or should I say, she once had me...
She showed me her room, isn't it good Norwegian wood?

She told me she worked in the morning and started to laugh.
I told her I didn't, and crawled off to sleep in the bath

And when I awoke, I was alone, this bird had flown
So I lit a fire, isn't it good Norwegian wood.