Lesbian/gay/bisexual/transgender identities in Islam

Filan

It isn't my intention to offend or cause controversy here...but as we live in a society where people of such identities exist,both inside and outside of Islam,do you feel that Islam can accommodate such people within it's faith and accept the existence of such outside?. There is Gay Islamic Organisations who argue that Islam isn't homophobic, others say that the Prophet p.b.u.h. interacted with the Eunch. In terms of peaceful co-existence , as mentioned previously, accommodation with, or at least some form of agreement to differ, in contemporary society, would be desirable....if possible...how do others here see it evolving. I hope this can be an intellectual and respectful discussion.:)

heavyballs

Filan wrote: »

It isn't my intention to offend or cause controversy here...but as we live in a society where people of such identities exist,both inside and outside of Islam,do you feel that Islam can accommodate such people within it's faith and accept the existence of such outside?. There is Gay Islamic Organisations who argue that Islam isn't homophobic, others say that the Prophet p.b.u.h. interacted with the Eunch. In terms of peaceful co-existence , as mentioned previously, accommodation with, or at least some form of agreement to differ, in contemporary society, would be desirable....if possible...how do others here see it evolving. I hope this can be an intellectual and respectful discussion.:)

i don't know a hell of a lot about Islam,all iknow is my bro is gay and my irish sister and her muslim husband won't allow him in their house,i'm not religious in any way at all but everything bar the no alcohol rule is wrong and out of touch with reality..,i memtion the alcohol because it's a curse and has ruined many lives directly and indirectly

irishconvert

Muslims believe pretty much the same thing as Christians do, i.e. it is not a sin to be homosexual but it is a sin to act on it. It is not up to us as Muslims to judge anybody, that is God's job.

imported_guy

irishconvert wrote: »

Muslims believe pretty much the same thing as Christians do, i.e. it is not a sin to be homosexual but it is a sin to act on it. It is not up to us as Muslims to judge anybody, that is God's job.

right..... post a source when you post something like this, the next time, shows how much you really know...., its a sin even to think about adultry i.e"think of sexy thoughts" as homer simpson said let alone homosexuality.

islam is pretty much as homophobic as it gets, i used to be a muslim, and i am still homophobic even though i consider my self athiest now, sodom and goomrah anyone? story of "Lut"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lut

mcmoustache

Christianity and Islam are both pretty homophobic. I think that both their holy books are quite clear that this should be so. There are, however, many christians who don't take their holy book literally (eg catholics and anglicans who interpret) and this allows the faith to adapt to the times. They pick and choose the bits they like and ignore the crazy stuff. Muslims and presbyterians, though, need to take their respective holy books literally and this doesn't leave any room for tolerating homosexuality and never will. If it does, it will no longer be islam or presbyterianism.

irishconvert

imported_guy wrote: »

right..... post a source when you post something like this, the next time, shows how much you really know...., its a sin even to think about adultry i.e"think of sexy thoughts" as homer simpson said let alone homosexuality.

Why don't you then post a source to back up what you say? What I have been thought, read and watched in many lectures is that even if you have an intention to do something wrong (e.g. to murder someone, commit adultery) and you don't carry it out, then you have done no wrong and there is no punishment.

wes

irishconvert wrote: »

Why don't you then post a source to back up what you say? What I have been thought, read and watched in many lectures is that even if you have an intention to do something wrong (e.g. to murder someone, commit adultery) and you don't carry it out, then you have done no wrong and there is no punishment.

Yeah, this is the way I was taught as well.

Mark Hamill

irishconvert wrote: »

Why don't you then post a source to back up what you say? What I have been thought, read and watched in many lectures is that even if you have an intention to do something wrong (e.g. to murder someone, commit adultery) and you don't carry it out, then you have done no wrong and there is no punishment.

Probably just being pedantic, but should that not be "even if you have an intention to do something wrong (e.g. to murder someone, commit adultery) and you don't attempt to carry it out, then you have done no wrong"? Surely its wrong to try to murder someone, even if you fail out of inneptness or missed opportunity?

Manic Moran

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Surely its wrong to try to murder someone, even if you fail out of inneptness or missed opportunity?

Although a bit of an aside, I've always complained about the differences in sentencing between murder and attempted murder. It's not as if you have any difference in intent, just either the other guy was good, lucky, or you were an idiot.

NTM

irishconvert

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Probably just being pedantic, but should that not be "even if you have an intention to do something wrong (e.g. to murder someone, commit adultery) and you don't attempt to carry it out, then you have done no wrong"? Surely its wrong to try to murder someone, even if you fail out of inneptness or missed opportunity?

I am not taking about actually attempting to commit the murder. What meant is if you get an idea in your head and decide you are going to murder somebody but you think it over and a few days later change your mind and decide not to do it.

Mark Hamill

irishconvert wrote: »

I am not taking about actually attempting to commit the murder. What meant is if you get an idea in your head and decide you are going to murder somebody but you think it over and a few days later change your mind and decide not to do it.

Yeah thats what I thought Thanks

imported_guy

irishconvert wrote: »

Why don't you then post a source to back up what you say? What I have been thought, read and watched in many lectures is that even if you have an intention to do something wrong (e.g. to murder someone, commit adultery) and you don't carry it out, then you have done no wrong and there is no punishment.

i posted a source, look it up...? its a very well known story in christianity/islam that a city got wiped out cuz people were putting their genitals in the wrong place

irishconvert

imported_guy wrote: »

i posted a source, look it up...? its a very well known story in christianity/islam that a city got wiped out cuz people were putting their genitals in the wrong place

You posted a link to the story of Lut to back up your point which was

imported_guy wrote: »

its a sin even to think about adultry

I can't see anything in that story that backs up your point. Maybe I am missing it. Can you clarify please?

Filan

I find it both sad and amusing that Iran, a country where homosexuality is punishable by death has the second highest rate of gender reassignment in the world....second only to Thailand.

irishconvert

Filan wrote: »

I find it both sad and amusing that Iran, a country where homosexuality is punishable by death has the second highest rate of gender reassignment in the world....second only to Thailand.

Filan, this forum is for discussing Islam, not issues relating to the laws of any particular country. Please take that to Politics or some other relevant forum.

Thanks.

imported_guy

irishconvert wrote: »

You posted a link to the story of Lut to back up your point which was

homosexuality in abrhamic religions

irishconvert wrote: »

I can't see anything in that story that backs up your point. Maybe I am missing it. Can you clarify please?

it wasnt a refernce to support that comment, its just a well known fact, it was towards homosexuality

heres the reference if you are looking for, i.e. lust (thinking of commiting adultery/homosexuality etc)

"Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest ye swerve (Surah 4:135)."

As Abu Hurairah reports in Sahih Muslim, the Prophet said, "The fornication of the eyes is to look with lust; the fornication of the tongue is to speak lustful things; the fornication of the hands is to touch with lust; the fornication of the feet is to walk towards lust; the fornication of the heart is to desire evil."

read the rest here http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Judaism/2002/08/Is-Lust-Only-Natural.aspx?p=4

Filan

Irish Convert I want to discuss lgbt identities in Islam, it's virtualy impossible to do so without at some stage making reference to laws in certain lands.....

ChocolateSauce

Social progress on issues which are explicitly condemned in a religion cannot be made within the context of that religion, only out of it. ie, the more liberal a country, the less religious.

Filan

I find it a very interesting and contemporarily relevant topic. Although Christianity and Islam purport to be opposed to homosexuality and gender variance, there is lgbt groupings within both who interpret their religion in such as a way that it accommodates their identity. I suppose every text can be read in many different ways. Society needs to accommodate it's diverse elements.

Indonesia recently opened it's first ever mosque specific for Transsexuals.

imported_guy

Filan wrote: »

I find it a very interesting and contemporarily relevant topic. Although Christianity and Islam purport to be opposed to homosexuality and gender variance, there is lgbt groupings within both who interpret their religion in such as a way that it accommodates their identity. I suppose every text can be read in many different ways. Society needs to accommodate it's diverse elements.

Indonesia recently opened it's first ever mosque specific for Transsexuals.

some people take their imagination and interpretations too far

like church of scientology

if you are interpreting your doing it wrong

quran and hadith have clear instructions on what to do and what not to do.

Filan

Your probably right imported guy, regardless we all share this planet, it's in all our interests to do so in a respectful and peaceful way, nobody really wants conflict. All human beings innate instincts are good I believe.

irishconvert

imported_guy wrote: »

"Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest ye swerve (Surah 4:135)."

That quote has been taken out of context. It does not refer to homosexuality or lust. You need to read the whole verse:

O ye who believe! stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for Allah can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest ye swerve, and if ye distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily Allah is well- acquainted with all that ye do.(Surah 4:135 - Yusul Ali translation)

Bear in mind that the words in brackets are the translators own additions and are not the words of the Qur'an.

Here is a different translation from http://al-quraan.org/index.php?main_page=document_general_info&cPath=4_8&products_id=60:

O believers! Stand firm for justice and bear true witness for the sake of Allah, even though it be against yourselves, your parents or your relatives. It does not matter whether the party is rich or poor - Allah is well wisher of both. So let not your selfish desires swerve you from justice. If you distort your testimony or decline to give it, then you should remember that Allah is fully aware of your actions.[4:135]

imported_guy

irishconvert wrote: »

That quote has been taken out of context. It does not refer to homosexuality or lust. You need to read the whole verse:



Bear in mind that the words in brackets are the translators own additions and are not the words of the Qur'an.

Here is a different translation from http://al-quraan.org/index.php?main_page=document_general_info&cPath=4_8&products_id=60:

i wasnt adressing homosexuality this time i was providing you with a reference to why lustful thoughts are a sin because you asked for it , so the quote isnt out of context, in arabic one word can have like 10 different meaninings, and different translators will interpret differently, so what is to say that your one is correct and mine is wrong?

and i actully provided 2 references.

irishconvert

imported_guy wrote: »

i wasnt adressing homosexuality this time i was providing you with a reference to why lustful thoughts are a sin because you asked for it , so the quote isnt out of context, in arabic one word can have like 10 different meaninings, and different translators will interpret differently, so what is to say that your one is correct and mine is wrong?

and i actully provided 2 references.

But the verse you provided doesn't refer to lust. The whole verse is about justice. You (or the website you were looking at) can't quote one line from a verse totally out of context and claim it refers to lust.

As for the hadith you included I am not familiar with it or the authenticity of it but I will get back to you on it when I have asked someone else.

philologos

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Social progress on issues which are explicitly condemned in a religion cannot be made within the context of that religion, only out of it. ie, the more liberal a country, the less religious.

Progress - Not all of us hold the same definition of progress as you do.

Liberalism - Not all of us hold the idea that the more liberal a society is the better it is. Rather reasonable constraints and limits tend to be required.

Why should your definition of progress prevail over other reasonable versions of progress merely because it is sourced from a non-religious point of view?

imported_guy

irishconvert wrote: »

But the verse you provided doesn't refer to lust. The whole verse is about justice. You (or the website you were looking at) can't quote one line from a verse totally out of context and claim it refers to lust.

As for the hadith you included I am not familiar with it or the authenticity of it but I will get back to you on it when I have asked someone else.

ok i will find you other references just to confirm you want me to reference my comment on LUSTFUL thoughts being a sin right? unless i am mistaken or my english is that crap, lust can be for money, women, homosexuality etc etc so my earlier quote wasnt out of context its just how you interpret it

i will edit this with reference

quran chapter 2 verse 284

http://www.muftisays.com/qa/question/2616/lustful-thoughts.html

more comming


Sahih International: To Allah belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth. Whether you show what is within yourselves or conceal it, Allah will bring you to account for it. Then He will forgive whom He wills and punish whom He wills, and Allah is over all things competent.

*my interpertation* so you will be accounted for your lustful/adultrous thoughts atleast (even if you show them or keep it to yourself *conceal it*) if not homosexual (dont see how this wouldnt fall into the first catagory)

How shaytan works:
(1) gives you a passing thought
(2) which then becomes an idea
(3) which then becomes an intention
(4) which then becomes a will
(5) which then becomes an action
but it doesn't stop there...shaytan will continue to lead you on until:
(6) becomes a habit (at which point the heart is black and hard)

hivizman

irishconvert wrote: »

But the verse you provided doesn't refer to lust. The whole verse is about justice. You (or the website you were looking at) can't quote one line from a verse totally out of context and claim it refers to lust.

As for the hadith you included I am not familiar with it or the authenticity of it but I will get back to you on it when I have asked someone else.

The hadith is indeed in Sahih Muslim - it's in Kitab al-Qadr (Book 33), Number 86. On the USC-MSA database, it's hadith number 033-6422. The translation given there is as follows:

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying. Allah fixed the very portion of adultery which a man will indulge in. There would be no escape from it. The adultery of the eye is the lustful look and the adultery of the ears is listening to voluptuous (song or talk) and the adultery of the tongue is licentious speech and the adultery of the hand is the lustful grip (embrace) and the adultery of the feet is to walk (to the place) where he intends to commit adultery and the heart yearns and desires which he may or may not put into effect.

A transliteration of original Arabic for the passage from "the adultery of the eye . . ." to ". . . is to walk" is as follows:

Al-'aynaani zinaahum an-nazharu, wa'l-udhnaani zinaahum al-istimaa'u, wa'l-lisaanu zinaahu al-kalaamu, wa'l-yadu zinaaha al-batshu, wa'r-rijlu zinaaha al-khutaa.

I'm with irishconvert on the translation of Surah an-Nisa' 4:135: The word that Yusuf Ali (and also Muhsin Khan) translates as "lusts" is rendered by Muhammad Asad as "desires", by Abdel Haleem as "desire", by Marmaduke Pickthall, and by Dawood, as "passion", by Arberry as "caprice", and by Khalidi as "whims". The general sense of the verse is that we should strive to maintain justice, without favour to either rich or poor, even if this means going against our personal or family interests. We are enjoined to avoid following our personal inclinations because of the risk that this will lead us to deviate from justice. It's not specifically about lust in a sexual sense.

imported_guy

hivizman wrote: »

I'm with irishconvert on the translation of Surah an-Nisa' 4:135: The word that Yusuf Ali (and also Muhsin Khan) translates as "lusts" is rendered by Muhammad Asad as "desires", by Abdel Haleem as "desire", by Marmaduke Pickthall, and by Dawood, as "passion", by Arberry as "caprice", and by Khalidi as "whims". The general sense of the verse is that we should strive to maintain justice, without favour to either rich or poor, even if this means going against our personal or family interests. We are enjoined to avoid following our personal inclinations because of the risk that this will lead us to deviate from justice. It's not specifically about lust in a sexual sense.

thanks alot for clearing this up, i always thought you could lust for money/luxury etc etc, not just women/sexuality and thats why i wanted him to clear it up a bit

hivizman

irishconvert wrote: »

Why don't you then post a source to back up what you say? What I have been thought, read and watched in many lectures is that even if you have an intention to do something wrong (e.g. to murder someone, commit adultery) and you don't carry it out, then you have done no wrong and there is no punishment.

The authority for this is a widely-reported tradition (it appears in Bukhari and Muslim, and is one of Imam An-Nawawi's famous collection of 40 hadiths). Here is the version from Bukhari, as translated by Muhsin Khan:

Volume 8, Book 76, Number 498:

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:

The Prophet narrating about his Lord said, "Allah ordered (the appointed angels over you) that the good and the bad deeds be written, and He then showed (the way) how (to write). If somebody intends to do a good deed and he does not do it, then Allah will write for him a full good deed (in his account with Him); and if he intends to do a good deed and actually did it, then Allah will write for him (in his account) with Him (its reward equal) from ten to seven hundred times to many more times: and if somebody intended to do a bad deed and he does not do it, then Allah will write a full good deed (in his account) with Him, and if he intended to do it (a bad deed) and actually did it, then Allah will write one bad deed (in his account) ."

Muslim reports the tradition as follows (translated by Abdul Hamid Siddiqui)

Book 001, Number 0235:

Abu Huraira reported that Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him), said: When it occurs to my bondsman that he should do a good deed but he actually does not do it, record one good to him, but if he puts it into practice, I make an entry of ten good acts in his favour. When it occurs to him to do evil, but he does not commit it, I forgive that. But if he commits it, I record one evil against his name. The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) observed. The angels said: That bondsman of Yours intends to commit evil. though His Lord is more Vigilant than he. Upon this He (the Lord) said: Watch him; if he commits (evil), write it against his name but if he refrains from doing it, write one good deed or him, for he desisted from doing it for My sake. The Messenger of Allah said: He who amongst you is good of faith, all his good acts are multiplied from ten to seven hundred times (and are recorded in his name) and all the evils that he commits are recorded as such (i.e. without increase) till he meets Allah.

Muslim gives another version on the authority of Abu Huraira and a further version on the authority of Ibn 'Abbas.

I'm interested to note that there is a reward for just thinking about doing something good, even if you don't actually do it. Also, if you think about something evil but then refrain from it for the sake of Allah, you are rewarded. I think, though, that the key words are "for the sake of Allah". If you have evil thoughts, even if you don't act on them, this will be counted against you unless you make the effort to give up the thoughts. Lust, whether for power, money, status, sex or anything else that goes beyond the acceptable (possibly the word "lust", which has shifted meaning over the centuries from meaning "strong desire" to " inappropriate, even depraved, desire", implies that the desire is excessive) would be regarded as sinful. Indeed, in the extreme case there is a danger that the object of lust is set up as a rival to God and is effectively worshipped, thus leading one into shirk.

imported_guy

hivizman wrote: »

I'm interested to note that there is a reward for just thinking about doing something good, even if you don't actually do it. Also, if you think about something evil but then refrain from it for the sake of Allah, you are rewarded. I think, though, that the key words are "for the sake of Allah". If you have evil thoughts, even if you don't act on them, this will be counted against you unless you make the effort to give up the thoughts. Lust, whether for power, money, status, sex or anything else that goes beyond the acceptable (possibly the word "lust", which has shifted meaning over the centuries from meaning "strong desire" to " inappropriate, even depraved, desire", implies that the desire is excessive) would be regarded as sinful. Indeed, in the extreme case there is a danger that the object of lust is set up as a rival to God and is effectively worshipped, thus leading one into shirk.

Great reply, this is what i was trying to get on to.

irishconvert

hivizman, that is exactly what I was trying to say, thanks!

imported_guy, I accept your point about lustful thoughts.

So I think we agree that if anyone (straight or homosexual) is having lustful thoughts it is not good and something they should try to refrain from. However if someone is born homosexual, and doesn't act on it, then they are commiting no sin.