No country for young men

Amhran Nua

Grim reading from the Times today...

THEY’RE BRIGHT and they’re eager – but they’re also unwanted. As the country struggles to cope in a credit-crunched world, it’s increasingly clear that young people are bearing the brunt of the country’s job losses. A grim pageant of statistics published this week showed just how stark the reality is. Unemployment is now running up to three times higher among young people compared to the rest of the population. Joblessness among the under-25s is reaching towards 27 per cent, compared with 9 per cent for the rest of the population. For young men the situation is even worse, with one in three in their early 20s out of a job.

It was never meant to be like this. For a generation who grew up in the carefree days of the Noughties boom, swept along by the buy-now-pay-later culture, it’s a seismic reality shift. During a decade of near full employment, parents, teachers and politicians believed that this was a generation that had never had it so good.


Many young people skipped nimbly from one job to another in an environment where money, opportunity and choices seemed to lie around every corner. Rainy days were such a distant memory that they hardly seemed worth saving for.


Times have changed, and now uncertainty prevails. Thousands of young people are adjusting to the boredom and poverty that comes with unemployment and handouts. Others are lowering their expectations, working in low-paid jobs outside the areas in which they are qualified.
Yet graduates are just part of the story. Those lured out of formal education and into well-paid jobs at the height of the boom are most at risk of long-term unemployment. Studies have shown that prolonged spells out of work for those about to enter the labour market can leave permanent scars, including job instability and slow career progression.


Leading labour economist Prof David Blanchflower has made headlines in the UK in recent times, warning of a “lost generation” of young people unless the British government moved swiftly to tackle the crisis. Visiting Dublin this week, his message was just as stark. He pointed to research in Britain which found that people who were unemployed in their mid-20s were more likely to be unemployed, have lower health and generate a lower wage later in life. What makes matters worse, according to Blanchflower, is that the recession is coming at the very time when large numbers of young people should be flooding the workforce. “They’re going to be a huge lost generation. I would like for them to be paying for my retirement and your retirement, but the problem as well is that the cohorts behind them will have to pay for them forever.”


All social groups are being hit, he says, from working-class school-leavers to middle-class graduates. “It’s a call to arms for their parents and their grandparents. We need to get all parties together and say: ‘What are we going to do about this?’ ”


Much of the language currently being used is unmistakably warlike. The phrase “lost generation” evokes a post-war era, while some economists talk of “casualties” of the recession. Maybe this is because the firgures are so stark as to require emergency action. A Fás report this week, for example, found that young workers, particularly men aged under 24, have been the worst-affected by the downturn, with one-third currently out of work.



The Organisation for Economic Co-Operation and Development (OECD) also weighed in with the view that the minimum school-leaving age should be raised from 16 to 18, with more training options to help limit youth unemployment. The organisation added that there was a “serious risk that joblessness in the short run will translate into a permanently higher level of unemployment”, due mainly to weak labour-activation measures.
There is no time to waste, says Brian Mooney, a former president of the Institute of Guidance Counsellors, who has met with senior Government ministers in recent months to help plot a way out of the crisis.


“Unless you find work, your skills deteriorate within a few months,” he says. “So if a young person has left college or the construction industry and is out of work for a year, you’re going backwards. Your skills, morale and self-esteem all take a hit.”


Mooney bristles with frustration at what he sees as the Government’s inertia over dismantling old labour support systems to build new ones. Fás, he says, is not only a toxic brand but is also outmoded.


“There are too many job support agencies scattered throughout the system, some staffed by skilled people, others not so skilled,” he says. “We need to replace existing Fás offices, which are still geared too much towards construction, by bringing a wide range of skills, guidance and support for people ranging from managers to those with no skills.”
For all the doom-mongering, though, there are many who say that young people are more resilient than before, and that they are doing their bit while the economy is on its knees.


Yvonne McKenna, chief executive of Volunteer Centres Ireland (VCI), claims to see this on a daily basis. She says that young people, eager to get some kind of experience by volunteering, are applying for unpaid work in droves. She says the generation is far from being “lost”; instead, young people are motivated to make the best of a very difficult situation.


“There’s a confidence about them and they’re coming forward on the basis that ‘I have skills and I want to put them to work’,” she says.


Already this year, the number of young people applying to the VCI’s 20 volunteer centres around the country has swelled by almost 120 per cent.

So thank you Bertie for flushing record tax returns from the boom down the jacks, thank you Cowen for inflating a ridiculous property bubble, thank you Lenihan for making it unbelievably worse, and thank you Fianna Fail and everyone that voted for them, thank you Frank Fahey for pushing people to buy houses, thank you Harney for what you've done to the Health service, thank you one and all. May you reap what you have sown, instead of the children of this country.

Seth Brundle

For the record, nobody pushed people to buy houses

Amhran Nua

kbannon wrote: »

For the record, nobody pushed people to buy houses

Nobody forced people to buy houses. The entire construction industry, banking industry and their pet politicians of big means and small pushed as hard as they could for people to buy houses.

Seth Brundle

Myself and the wifey made the decision to buy my house in 2000. We also were in the privileged position to have a house when the boom was at its height. However, we purposly decided not to buy another house because we realised that were one of to lose our jobs then it would be too difficult to afford the monthly repayments. (I also switched jobs over three years ago which included a large pay cut (but also meant that I would have been far happier). This also meant that things would be tighter should things go down as was predicted before then).

Myself and my wife were able to make our decisions based on practical common sense and not on a unrealistic hope that things would always continue as they were. There were constant predictions of a fall, that the economy was unsustainable based on a construction bubble.

We could have bought a house for say 500,000k but (possibly because we were already privileged) we were able to stand back and take a reality check. Our house now isn't massive, but its ours and does not mean that I have a noose around my neck.

Mario007

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Grim reading from the Times today...



So thank you Bertie for flushing record tax returns from the boom down the jacks, thank you Cowen for inflating a ridiculous property bubble, thank you Lenihan for making it unbelievably worse, and thank you Fianna Fail and everyone that voted for them, thank you Frank Fahey for pushing people to buy houses, thank you Harney for what you've done to the Health service, thank you one and all. May you reap what you have sown, instead of the children of this country.

am...thats a bit of populism you have there. is that the view and the stance of your party or your personal? because if it goes for the party but then i am more than disappointed

Amhran Nua

Mario007 wrote: »

am...thats a bit of populism you have there. is that the view and the stance of your party or your personal? because if it goes for the party but then i am more than disappointed

Factual information disappoints you? And if that article, the topic of the thread, doesn't make you angry, I'm the one thats disappointed. Or I would be if I had any expectations.

b12mearse

the lost generation is right! what a waste. they may as well ship us off to some war torn country...to finish us off

Scofflaw

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Factual information disappoints you? And if that article, the topic of the thread, doesn't make you angry, I'm the one thats disappointed. Or I would be if I had any expectations.

If you don't have any expectations, one would have to ask why you bother to post. Since we've been down this particular dismissive road before, I'll make the point once, now, that if you think this is a blog site or a political posterboard, you're mistaken, and if your engagement with other posters remains at the level of dismissing them if they disagree with you, I'll permaban you. Capice?

moderately,
Scofflaw

Sconsey

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Nobody forced people to buy houses. The entire construction industry, banking industry and their pet politicians of big means and small pushed as hard as they could for people to buy houses.

Yeah you keep telling yourself that...there's a big difference between 'forced' and 'pushed'. Plenty of people exercised personal responsability and did not leap headlong into debts which they coulnd't repay.

Mario007

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Factual information disappoints you? And if that article, the topic of the thread, doesn't make you angry, I'm the one thats disappointed. Or I would be if I had any expectations.

no i was referring to this bit:

So thank you Bertie for flushing record tax returns from the boom down the jacks, thank you Cowen for inflating a ridiculous property bubble, thank you Lenihan for making it unbelievably worse, and thank you Fianna Fail and everyone that voted for them, thank you Frank Fahey for pushing people to buy houses, thank you Harney for what you've done to the Health service, thank you one and all. May you reap what you have sown, instead of the children of this country.

which springs out a lot of populism to me. and populism is the bit that i'm disappointed with.

Dannyboy83

Mario007 wrote: »

which springs out a lot of populism to me. and populism is the bit that i'm disappointed with.

I don't understand your criticism of his point here.
I think first you need to clarify your criticism of his point.

A) Do you believe his statement is NOT true? And if so, why?

And if you do believe the statement IS true, then why is he populist for expressing it?

Mario007

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I don't understand your criticism of his point here.
I think first you need to clarify your criticism of his point.

A) Do you believe his statement is NOT true? And if so, why?

And if you do believe the statement IS true, then why is he populist for expressing it?

The post expresses the facts as shown by the article in the irish times and then AN follows up with whining criticism(sorry i cant find a better word for it) on bertie, cowen and lenihan. i think he should be much clearer on the criticism. he is representing a political party and as such criticizing something or someone because everyone else is doing it is populism. he doesn't attack with figures or alternatives, he simply states the situation is bad and you, you and you are responsible cos everyone says you're so. that is populism.
this is also followed up by further comments such as:

The entire construction industry, banking industry and their pet politicians of big means and small pushed as hard as they could for people to buy houses.

which is half truth, spun nicely to go along with the popular opinion, ie a further proof of populism

mikemac

Amhran Nua wrote: »

So thank you Bertie for flushing record tax returns from the boom down the jacks, thank you Cowen for inflating a ridiculous property bubble, thank you Lenihan for making it unbelievably worse, and thank you Fianna Fail and everyone that voted for them, thank you Frank Fahey for pushing people to buy houses, thank you Harney for what you've done to the Health service, thank you one and all. May you reap what you have sown, instead of the children of this country.

Instead of blasting the current government, I'd be more interested to hear what your policies are on job creation.

I'll look through the website but have you any?
For me anyway, all this negativity turns me off, don't tell me what you oppose, tell me your solutions!

Which is something FG should start doing a bit more imo

Amhran Nua

Scofflaw wrote: »

Since we've been down this particular dismissive road before, I'll make the point once, now, that if you think this is a blog site or a political posterboard,

I'm perfectly aware of what this site is, thanks, and having lurked in these parts on and off for quite a while, I have to say its considerably lessened from even two years ago.

Scofflaw wrote: »

if your engagement with other posters remains at the level of dismissing them if they disagree with you, I'll permaban you. Capice?

Hang on a minute, why are there suddenly different rules for me than for other posters? My response pointed out the factual nature of my issues with the government, and if that counts as dismissive, I'm not sure what to say.

And unlike some posters I'm not using the "report" button as a "disagree" function.

Mario007 wrote: »

then AN follows up with whining criticism(sorry i cant find a better word for it) on bertie, cowen and lenihan. i think he should be much clearer on the criticism.

How much clearer do you think it could be?

Mario007 wrote: »

he is representing a political party and as such criticizing something or someone because everyone else is doing it is populism.

The reasons for this criticism were clearly stated in the post. The reasons for the criticism are reality. Since you found zero basis to deal with the reality, you instead decided to play the man and not the ball, which you are now continuing.

Mario007 wrote: »

he doesn't attack with figures or alternatives,

The alternatives are all in the sig. The figures are well known and as such don't require much in the way of explanation. The reason we are looking at industrial action from the public sector is because Bertie handed over the record tax returns to them. The various benefits and tax concessions available to buyers during the boom are down to Cowen. Lenihan's economic policy has been described by one of the foremost economic minds on earth as "criminal". Frank Fahy, well known property investor, makes a quarterly habit of telling everyone its a great time to buy - I wonder how a couple stuck on a 30 year mortgage in a two bed shoebox in deep negative equity with their second child on the way and one job lost feels about that. The minister for Health is responsible for the Health service. These are commonly known facts.

Mario007 wrote: »

which is half truth, spun nicely to go along with the popular opinion, ie a further proof of populism

As already pointed out to kbannon, "pushed" was used rather than "forced", which is an exactly correct use of the term, as in to "push a product", or a "drug pusher". When people in a position of responsiblity, people who know better, willingly advocate a path that is harmful to those with less knowledge, they should be held accountable for it. I'm not excusing those who bought in less than full knowledge, but neither does that expiate those pushing the product, including elected representatives. If it wasn't sharp practice it should be.

mikemac wrote: »

Instead of blasting the current government, I'd be more interested to hear what your policies are on job creation.

I'll look through the website but have you any?

Yes we do, and a great many of them! I'll try to sum up in a nutshell here:

• Control the deficit (approx €24 billion) by going to the Dutch method of healthcare (savings €13 billion), cutting quangos (savings €5 billion from €12 billion approx), a little nip and tuck around social welfare (20% or approx €4 billion) and general efficiencies such as removing redundancies and controlling costs, which brings us to break even.
• Next up we need to control the banks, with the sole goal of securing your deposits and those of business. This would involve using the current assets of the banks in retail mortgages and other areas, selling them off (as the banks are already doing), and securing deposits in that manner. Shareholders are already wiped out, bondholders are big boy investors - thats not to say we ignore them, but they are bottom of the food chain.
• We then need to promote growth in domestic industries and tourism, the area you are really interested in. This needs two things - a capable workforce and finance, with decent infrastructure a bonus.
• The capable workforce will be provided by setting up ten world class educational institutions, not as fourth tier education but as an adjunct to existing third level education. These will be targeted towards specific areas where the country will aim for DEBI, with the intention of rolling out graduates in five to six years, paired with experienced businesspeople and engineers. They will also provide a major stimulus to any town or region they are based in. Also the complete reform of FAS and ongoing adult education courses, and the removal of the perceived stigma associated with adult education among many sectors of the population.
• Finance: Set up the Irish Common Investment Market, where limited companies can offer up shares to the public to buy and sell on the internet, without intervention from middlemen. The original idea of the stock market was to allow people to invest in companies, which has long since transformed into a system that benefits very few companies. The ICIM will be very tightly regulated, and linked with the Revenue Commissioners and Finance Departments, but will essentially allow easy direct buying and selling of shares in many more companies than are currently allowed, giving them access to capital without debt. Also issue a National Recovery bond, in return for future tax credits, and seek investment from international groups.

Theres a lot more to it than that, but I won't copy over the whole lot here in case there are more demands we pay for advertising.

mikemac wrote: »

For me anyway, all this negativity turns me off, don't tell me what you oppose, tell me your solutions!

Indeed, some situations call for strong criticism though. An entire generation of young Irish people being shuffled off by the likes of Junket O'Donoghue is one of them.

mrquiteaguy

I have just read in the Irish Mail on Sunday paper today,that the Government could be cutting the dole to half for the under 30s like they did for the under 20s.
If that happens it definitely wont be a country for young men

skooby

mikemac wrote: »

For me anyway, all this negativity turns me off, don't tell me what you oppose, tell me your solutions!

without getting involved in the whole political debate i think this is the best idea for the whole country to take on board. instead of all jumping on the bandwagon of blame soomebody why cant we work together to resolve the problem on hand.

skearon

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Grim reading from the Times today...



So thank you Bertie for flushing record tax returns from the boom down the jacks, thank you Cowen for inflating a ridiculous property bubble, thank you Lenihan for making it unbelievably worse, and thank you Fianna Fail and everyone that voted for them, thank you Frank Fahey for pushing people to buy houses, thank you Harney for what you've done to the Health service, thank you one and all. May you reap what you have sown, instead of the children of this country.

And thank you for rewriting history!

No mention there of the world recession, or the failed regulalation of George Bush's administration, nor him allowing Lehman Brothers to collapse??

Funny, I don't remember people on the dole (during a sustained period a 'full' employment) complaining about the dole being doubled between 2001 and 2006, nor the public service complaining about their salaries being massively increased, nor people complaining about receiving child benefit double that of the UK rate.

Ever heard of free will and personal responsbility?

skearon

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Nobody forced people to buy houses. The entire construction industry, banking industry and their pet politicians of big means and small pushed as hard as they could for people to buy houses.

The Irish people have for a long time had one of the highest home ownership rates in the world.

skearon

mrquiteaguy wrote: »

I have just read in the Irish Mail on Sunday paper today,that the Government could be cutting the dole to half for the under 30s like they did for the under 20s.
If that happens it definitely wont be a country for young men

Those under 20 on training courses remain on the higher rate.

The same should apply to those under 30 too. It's madness to continue to borrow €500m a week to pay people to do nothing, far better it goes towards education, e.g. leaving cert, and 3rd level courses.

If someone is fit and healthy, and refuses training, then certainly cut their dole in half. Those people are utterly selfish to expect to live off the hard work of others.

bonkey

Amhran Nua infracted for ignoring the parts of the charter regarding the discussion of moderation

Amhran Nua

skearon wrote: »

And thank you for rewriting history!

If you have any facts to point out where that might be the case, do us a favour and trot them out.

skearon wrote: »

No mention there of the world recession, or the failed regulalation of George Bush's administration, nor him allowing Lehman Brothers to collapse??

You mean the recession the rest of the world is coming out of, the recession that will have us paying one euro of tax in three just to pay off the interest on the loans we are getting at the moment?

skearon wrote: »

Funny, I don't remember people on the dole (during a sustained period a 'full' employment) complaining about the dole being doubled between 2001 and 2006, nor the public service complaining about their salaries being massively increased, nor people complaining about receiving child benefit double that of the UK rate.

Where did I support that?

skearon wrote: »

Ever heard of free will and personal responsbility?

Ever heard of reality?

skearon wrote: »

The Irish people have for a long time had one of the highest home ownership rates in the world.

Ireland has around 4% urbanisation, so what. Theres plenty of space here.

skearon wrote: »

If someone is fit and healthy, and refuses training, then certainly cut their dole in half. Those people are utterly selfish to expect to live off the hard work of others.

The entire point of the article, which you seemed to have missed in a high dudgeon about lazy Irish people (now competing with most of Eastern Europe for minimum wage jobs by the way), is that the economic situation is driving the young people out of the country or into spirals of futility. This is the reality, and the government, current and past, is to blame directly.

If you aren't angry, you should be.

gurramok

skearon wrote: »

The Irish people have for a long time had one of the highest home ownership rates in the world.

And so do many other countries.
http://s181.photobucket.com/albums/x283/gurra2011/Misc/?action=view&current=homeownershipratesmyth.jpg

On topic, its the young who are sacrificed through the usual 'safety valve' of emigration just like the 80's.

Throw them in education is a short term measure to get them off the live register http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/1105/1224258098947.html

The number of people on Fás training programmes “has practically doubled this year from 66,000 to 128,000”, and 25,000 people were on back-to-work and back-to-education schemes.

But will there be jobs for them when they 'graduate'?

Dannyboy83

skearon wrote: »

No mention there of the world recession, or the failed regulalation of George Bush's administration, nor him allowing Lehman Brothers to collapse??

Thats likely because the international downturn is only a minor component.

How does this explain a 14% contraction in GDP over a 3 year period?

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0429/breaking18.html?via=mr

The ESRI forecast that Ireland will experience the sharpest fall in economic growth of any industrialised country since the Great Depression.

“Our forecasts suggest that Ireland’s economy will contract by around 14 per cent over the three years 2008 to 2010. By historic and international standards this is a truly dramatic development.

“Prior to this the largest decline for an industrialised country since the 1930s had been in Finland, where real gross domestic product declined by 11 per cent between 1990 and 1993,” according to the ESRI.

One of the authors of the ESRI's report, Dr Alan Barrett, said the “severe recession” was due to Ireland being a very exposed economy in the midst of a global downturn while at the same time having allowed housing and construction generally to have become too large a part of its domestic economy.

The institute believes there may be net annual emigration of approximately 30,000 in the years to April 2009 and April 2010.

Ever heard of free will and personal responsbility?

I remember plenty of people complaining about Rip Off Ireland and the like. But thats not the point.

The point is that we elect these people to think of these problems for us, to manage the country and to ensure catastrophes such as the one we are currently in, never, ever happen.

There was a report recently linked on this forum, by Morgan Kelly, [I will try to find it later] which showed that 8 years out of 9, Anglo Irish had profits in excess of 20%, and the average was in fact 34%.
Now the thing about breaking the 20% profit barrier, is that this is when the alarm bells are supposed to go off.

While this was happening, the government were telling everyone that the country was rich. What does Joe soap know about economics? Nothing. Its not his job. That is why we elect these people and pay them handsomely for worrying and thinking about it for us.

Dannyboy83

skearon wrote: »

The Irish people have for a long time had one of the highest home ownership rates in the world.

And coincidently, have among the weakest legislation of any of the EU countries with regard to long term residential leasing.

skearon

skearon wrote: »

The Irish people have for a long time had one of the highest home ownership rates in the world.

lies


^^ only 6 countries have more than a 15% variation from our figure

skearon

skearon wrote: »

And thank you for rewriting history!

No mention there of the world recession, or the failed regulalation of George Bush's administration, nor him allowing Lehman Brothers to collapse??

Funny, I don't remember people on the dole (during a sustained period a 'full' employment) complaining about the dole being doubled between 2001 and 2006, nor the public service complaining about their salaries being massively increased, nor people complaining about receiving child benefit double that of the UK rate.

Ever heard of free will and personal responsbility?

Your the one trying to rewrite history with Fianna Fail propaganda
We had 416,000 people working in construction related activity during one of the worlds biggest property bubbles out of a work force of 2 million. And people like you are trying to put the blame on the likes of the Lehman Brothers to push the blame away from Fianna Fail

http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1011255.shtml

Irish Construction output at 23% of GNP in 2007; 416,000 employed in construction related activity - 19% of workforce

That 19% of the workforce were nicely paid so when the jobs started to disappear it was hardly a surprise tax revenues fell off a cliff.

What your saying is not even revisionism its propaganda

Seth Brundle

Deleted User wrote: »

lies


^^ only 6 countries have more than a 15% variation from our figure

Have you that on a global basis?

me_right_one

kbannon wrote: »

For the record, nobody pushed people to buy houses

Yep. Living in a tent is so much better:rolleyes:

Seth Brundle

Nobody suggested that people should live in tents or any other type of accommodation. The argument that I was making was that people chose to buy rather than rent, etc.
They may hev been encouraged, etc but it was they that actually made the decision to apprach the bank for money.

kbannon

kbannon wrote: »

Have you that on a global basis?

http://www.hnzc.co.nz/hnzc/web/research-&-policy/strategy-publications/nzhs/online-version/area-3---homeownership.htm
New Zealand 64% In 2004

http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/housing/hvs/qtr309/graph309.html
US 67.6% 2009


http://www.statcan.gc.ca/daily-quotidien/080604/dq080604a-eng.htm
Canada 68.4% 2006

http://action.web.ca/home/housing/resources.shtml?x=66839&AA_EX_Session=c4570876b761a7390fc185162213e123
Australia 70% 2004

me_right_one

kbannon wrote: »

Nobody suggested that people should live in tents or any other type of accommodation. The argument that I was making was that people chose to buy rather than rent, etc.
They may hev been encouraged, etc but it was they that actually made the decision to apprach the bank for money.

I saw another thread where some muppet had a similar arguement, that people shouldn't buy what they cannot afford. Its people of exactly that mentality who would have been saying "Rent is dead money, nobody's forcing you to rent. Why pay x amount per month for rent when a mortgage is the same" during the good times:mad: