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Do pubs/nightclubs have a duty of care

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2

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    #32
    Schism
    Registered Users Posts: 2,919 ✭✭✭Schism


    It's a case of I don't care where you go but you can't stay here isn't it?

    As long as they're out of the pub, any obligation then is moral.


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    #33
    DigiGal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,434 ✭✭✭DigiGal


    c - 13 wrote: »
    Yep because we all know a bloke could never get mugged, raped or the ****e kicked out of him for no reason other than he was an easy target :rolleyes:

    The club has no responsibility, as already stated its the persons own responsibility if they get themselves to that state.
    Never said that


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    #34
    c - 13
    Registered Users Posts: 5,584 ✭✭✭c - 13


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Does the same apply to drug dealers?

    By your logic, you should have no problem with a heroin dealer?

    I knew I should have expanded on that.

    What I meant was a bar is providing an environment where a person can purchase a product which will have an adverse effect on them - it should be the persons responsibility to decide/know when they have had enough.

    Now, granted a lot of clubs don't refuse service to an already intoxicated person and that is something that should be looked at.

    I dont think your drug dealer comparison is very extreme to be compared like for like with that. Especially since drugs are supposed to be a controlled substance and not something anyone over a certain age can readily obtain.

    It would be more like - "Is Cadburys responsible for helping fat people lose weight" since the people got fat off their product


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    #35
    El Weirdo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,647 ✭✭✭✭El Weirdo


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Does the same apply to drug dealers?

    By your logic, you should have no problem with a heroin dealer?
    He'd have to be a pretty crap heroin dealer if he was trying to sell his stuff in a nightclub.;)


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    #36
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    c - 13 wrote: »
    The club has no responsibility, as already stated its the persons own responsibility if they get themselves to that state.

    That's not entirely true.
    Generallly they have no duty, but if it was clear that a patron was an obvious danger to themselves, there could be a positive duty to, for instance, call an ambulance.

    Its a matter of degree of course, and it would be very rare where the nightclub legally had to do something, but its not beyond the bounds of possibility.


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    #37
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    DigiGal wrote: »
    actually yeah i do

    Sorry, your answer wasnt entirely clear - you might clarify what specifically you do when you pass drunk homeless people:
    1. call an ambulance
    2. comfort them
    3. bring them home
    4. other

    Thanks.


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    #38
    c - 13
    Registered Users Posts: 5,584 ✭✭✭c - 13


    DigiGal wrote: »
    Never said that

    You said fair enough to do it to one sex but not to the other because they could "get raped or worse" ?


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    #39
    Mossy Monk
    Closed Accounts Posts: 28,128 ✭✭✭✭Mossy Monk


    DigiGal wrote: »
    Wow.....ever hear of empathy


    Perfect are we?
    Never got into a state yourself...how would you feel if your daughter or sister or friend was in that state and some just said "ah shes her own responsability" and then she gets raped or dies of alcohol poisoning or ends up getting run over or mugged or beaten up or chokes on her own vomit....

    Well aren't you the nice guy

    What if she was abducted by aliens, or what if she ascended into heaven.


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    #40
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,378 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    c - 13 wrote: »
    I knew I should have expanded on that.

    What I meant was a bar is providing an environment where a person can purchase a product which will have an adverse effect on them - it should be the persons responsibility to decide/know when they have had enough.

    Now, granted a lot of clubs don't refuse service to an already intoxicated person and that is something that should be looked at.

    I dont think your drug dealer comparison is very extreme to be compared like for like with that. Especially since drugs are supposed to be a controlled substance and not something anyone over a certain age can readily obtain.

    It would be more like - "Is Cadburys responsible for helping fat people lose weight" since the people got fat off their product

    I considered trying to reply to this but I just cant argue with Garth Marenghi. ;)


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    #41
    Captain Havoc
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 11,391 Mod ✭✭✭✭Captain Havoc


    There is a law there about it being illegal to serve someone who is drunk, the problem is defining it. In hotels if someone gets locked in the hotel bar and then dies in the hotel room as a result of being locked, the hotel is responsible.

    It's two way thing IMO, barmen aren't babsitters but at the same time I think some of them need to grow a pair and say no, you've had enough. A lot of them want to avoid confrontation but as I said, they're aren't there to babysit either.

    I was out last night with my mates and was supping away on a few bottles and a couple of my mates went OTT, a few of us just stuck together to stay away from them. Unfortunately I know I get into states also. The club I was in last night was a disgrace, Morrisons in Kilkenny, it is completely over-crowded every week to a point I would consider dangerous, had one there and mosied on down to a "late bar".

    I think all this crumpiness is a mixture of age and being in work on Sunday.

    https://ormondelanguagetours.com

    Walking Tours of Kilkenny in English, French or German.



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    #42
    The_Kew_Tour
    Registered Users Posts: 34,163 ✭✭✭✭The_Kew_Tour


    Saw a girl been thrown out of Hogans last night in George Street she seemd buttled as hell and giving bouncer hassle.

    Even the girls next us I could hear them say that bouncer did right thing. It does not matter if man or woman if you cant control your drink its time for you to leave basically.


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    #43
    Lia_lia
    Registered Users Posts: 6,691 ✭✭✭Lia_lia


    I've worked in a few bars. We are just not allowed serve someone if they are absolutely wrecked. And if someone comes in really really drunk we gotta kick them out.

    Bar staff usually don't have time to take care of customers.


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    #44
    salonfire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,078 ✭✭✭salonfire


    The effects of alcohol can hit ya like a ton of bricks tho...you could be grand going up to the bar and do rounds of vodkas, then WHAM! 20 mins later your being dragged out the door so maybe she wasn't that drunk getting served.


    The girl had friends inside the club alright, but none of them would answer their phones. Grrr!

    Plus the place was packed so I guess they got split up

    Anyway I thought it was harsh of the bouncers to chuck her out and leave her lying in a heap on the ground...but they probably see it happen dozens of times every weekend and are immune to it.

    And no, she wasn't looking particularly hot puking up the chinese she got earlier!

    You don't actually swallow your tongue...if your lying back, the tongue can go limp and flacid and block your airway which can happen if nobody's at the controls!


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    #45
    ~nop~
    Closed Accounts Posts: 245 ✭✭~nop~


    Legally I believe the issue is that if the bouncer does start taking care of her they have then assumed a duty of care and as such can become liable should she choke on her own vomit, tongue etc. afterwards, whereas if they do nothing they are not taking responsibility and therefore cannot be found liable. The issue of a barman selling someone who is already locked more drink is another one, but again it can often be very hard to tell, especially in packed pubs/clubs, and most of the duty does lie on the person who is consuming the alcohol to mind themselves and not let themselves get into a mess in the first place. We live in a country where alcohol is legal and yet if the state were to make publicans responsible for every harm that results from the product they sell the pubs wouldn't be able to function in the first place.


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    #46
    shampoosuicide
    Registered Users Posts: 415 ✭✭shampoosuicide


    El Weirdo wrote: »
    Do people not have a duty of care to themselves any more? Why should the state she was in be anyone's responsibility but her own?

    knew there'd be a reply like that. :rolleyes:


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    #47
    El Weirdo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,647 ✭✭✭✭El Weirdo


    Well aren't you quite the psychic?


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    #48
    sam34
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,073 ✭✭✭sam34


    salonfire wrote: »
    The effects of alcohol can hit ya like a ton of bricks tho...you could be grand going up to the bar and do rounds of vodkas, then WHAM! 20 mins later your being dragged out the door so maybe she wasn't that drunk getting served.

    maybe peopel should take responsibility for themselves and not do rounds of vodkas and expect to be fine afterwards.

    i'm no puritannical angel, i like to drink, and at times i drink more than is good for me, but in this case i think the fault is entirely with the girl for drinking herself into oblivion.


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    #49
    shampoosuicide
    Registered Users Posts: 415 ✭✭shampoosuicide


    sam34 wrote: »
    maybe peopel should take responsibility for themselves and not do rounds of vodkas and expect to be fine afterwards.

    i'm no puritannical angel, i like to drink, and at times i drink more than is good for me, but in this case i think the fault is entirely with the girl for drinking herself into oblivion.

    yeah, definitely. pity she didn't die


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    #50
    itsallaboutheL
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,333 ✭✭✭✭itsallaboutheL


    DigiGal wrote: »
    Fair enough a bloke who is locked but a girl could be raped or worse.

    Wow..


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    #51
    TPD
    Registered Users Posts: 7,814 ✭✭✭TPD


    shampoosuicide wrote: »
    yeah, definitely. pity she didn't die

    Whos fault is it for the girl getting hammered then?


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    #52
    shampoosuicide
    Registered Users Posts: 415 ✭✭shampoosuicide


    The Perfect Drug wrote: »
    Whos fault is it for the girl getting hammered then?

    oh, completely hers. who in their right mind drinks alcohol excessively in this day and age, in this country? it's unheard of. completely and utterly perverse. she deserves everything that comes to her


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    #53
    El Weirdo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,647 ✭✭✭✭El Weirdo


    shampoosuicide wrote: »
    oh, completely hers. who in their right mind drinks alcohol excessively in this day and age, in this country? it's unheard of. completely and utterly perverse. she deserves everything that comes to her
    Listen, no one here is saying that it doesn't happen. Read the thread.


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    #54
    sam34
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,073 ✭✭✭sam34


    shampoosuicide wrote: »
    yeah, definitely. pity she didn't die

    oh FFS.

    look, this girl made a conscious decision to go and drink a lot of alcohol.

    now, i seriously doubt she was naive enough not to know the effects this could have on her, yet she chose to do it nonetheless.

    why is it acceptable to deliberately drink yourself into such a state and expect random strangers to look after your safety?

    it is not the barman's fault she got that drunk, it is not the bouncers fault, it is her fault and hers alone.

    people have a duty and responsibility towards themselves.


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    #55
    TPD
    Registered Users Posts: 7,814 ✭✭✭TPD


    shampoosuicide wrote: »
    oh, completely hers. who in their right mind drinks alcohol excessively in this day and age, in this country? it's unheard of. completely and utterly perverse. she deserves everything that comes to her

    Your sarcasm doesn't help get your point across, it makes you sound like a high horse jockey.

    So basically, it's society's fault that this individual girl went out and drank more than she could handle? She couldn't decide not to?

    I suppose you think razor blade manufacturers are to blame for suicides*?


    *The ones using a razor blade anyway


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    #56
    shampoosuicide
    Registered Users Posts: 415 ✭✭shampoosuicide


    The Perfect Drug wrote: »
    Your sarcasm doesn't help get your point across, it makes you sound like a high horse jockey.

    So basically, it's society's fault that this individual girl went out and drank more than she could handle? She couldn't decide not to?

    I suppose you think razor blade manufacturers are to blame for suicides*?


    *The ones using a razor blade anyway

    you're calling me the high horse jockey? that's a hilarious display of self-awareness there


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    #57
    shampoosuicide
    Registered Users Posts: 415 ✭✭shampoosuicide


    El Weirdo wrote: »
    Listen, no one here is saying that it doesn't happen. Read the thread.

    i've read the thread, bud. it's profoundly depressing


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    #58
    bluto63
    Registered Users Posts: 2,228 ✭✭✭bluto63


    The girl was outside the establishment so it's no longer the clubs responsibility. If she were like that inside, then it would be the clubs responsibility, yes?


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    #59
    DigiGal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,434 ✭✭✭DigiGal


    itsallaboutheL wrote: »
    Wow..
    Awh shucks nobody has ever wow'd about em I'm so flattered






    Anyways I've been misunderstood here. I was replying to another post saying I can understand why bouncers will throw a bloke out as they tend not to be unsympathetic to blokes but i can't believe they just leave a girl outside. (Altho bar staff usually look after girls) Not that they should leave blokes outside.


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    #60
    DigiGal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,434 ✭✭✭DigiGal


    Mossy Monk wrote: »
    What if she was abducted by aliens, or what if she ascended into heaven.
    that is a ridiculous completely unconstructive reply.....

    well done you


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    #61
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    If people have no self-control/self-respect then they shouldn't be drinking, simple as. Thats why theres a drinking age, they expect people to be mature/responsible enough at 18 to control themselves yet people just seem to think downing 10 shots in a row will cause them no harm at all.
    The club really is too busy to be baby-sitting people so they could do no other than leave her outside, to get rid of any liability. Someone outside should have helped her just as they should help anyone who manages to completely lose it and end up completely out of it. But nevertheless people need to calm down on the drink, just because your friend can drink whatever amount doesn't mean you have to too. I really don't see the whole point of going out to spend a hundred or so just to drink so much that you forget what happened the next day.


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