Is it OK to abuse opposition fans at a soccer match?

flahavaj

rarnes1 wrote: »

It's not all abusive chanting that goes on at matches! I think you may be getting banter and abuse mixed up.

Do you chant at matches or would you be considered as Keane said part of the prawn sandwich brigade?

I have no problem with chanting thats not abusive.

I've also given a clear definition of the difference between abuse and banter.

Banter is great, I engage in it constantly at matches. 'Twouldn't be half the craic without it. No need to go overboard with it and abuse people though.

3hn2givr7mx1sc

No, people should concentrate on supprting their team, not windin g up opposition fans

Banter and chanting amongt fans is what makes live soccer so much better than telly soccer.
I've sat in the 'prawn sandwich seats' in Old Trafford, a friend of my fathers has a season ticket and so do two of his mates, they let us use two of them for a game against Charlton, it was unbelievably boring sitting up there, no singing, no noise and only a clap when United scored.
I've sat in the 'family' section, also very dull and boring.
The best place I've sat was in the end beside the away fans(City:P), the worst view I've had in OT, but it was by far the best craic I've had at any match, any sport, not just soccer.
It was the hooligans who got the people singing, they did well there, but I hate the bad name that they give soccer supporters.
I hope I'm sitting around that area again, for the Liverpool game in March.

therecklessone

No, people should concentrate on supprting their team, not windin g up opposition fans

flahavaj wrote: »

Explain it to me. Everyone seems to want to post in this thread that GAA and soccer fans are different, that abusing each other is part and parcel of going to soccer. I'm well aware of these facts. But not one person has explained that mentality to me or why it should be so.

Is it because in reality there is no good reason for soccer fans to abuse each other?

It's a bit late in the day with kick-off approaching, and I'm only four weeks into DD101 @ The Open University, but I'll try and introduce an element of the social sciences into this.

Football fans adapt to the cultural mores of their environment through a process of socialisation, as do fans of other sports. In football, we adopt behavioural patterns through this process, the more we are exposed to other fans who sing and shout the more we start to behave in a similar way. Kids don't arrive at a football ground primed to hurl abuse at the opposition, they learn like we all do from those around us.

Some people are more susceptible to this than others, and we all have our own moral compass, so while I will happily sing "your support is fúcking sh1t" I won't sing songs about wishing David Beckham's kids have cancer. Most Irish soccer fans (in my experience) who reject this sort of behaviour see very little league football, and so are more immune to this process of socialisation. I on the other hand have been to games numbering in the 100s, have travelled home and away (or away and away depending on your perspective) with mates who've been going years, have drank in local pubs etc etc.

The same applies at GAA or rugby fixtures, except people introduced to those sports learn a different form of behaviour than soccer fans.

There is no general behavioural model that applies to all soccer fans: in Italy fans are more likely to express themselves through banners than singing, and when they do sing it is lead by fans with loudhailers...in the UK it is more often through singing, and that singing is more spontaneous.

Most people have complex identities, thus I can attend a GAA match and enjoy the company and good-natured rivalry with other fans, while at a soccer match I am segregated, and I behave in a totally different way.

Starting to make any sense?

flahavaj

therecklessone wrote: »

It's a bit late in the day with kick-off approaching, and I'm only four weeks into DD101 @ The Open University, but I'll try and introduce an element of the social sciences into this.

Football fans adapt to the cultural mores of their environment through a process of socialisation, as do fans of other sports. In football, we adopt behavioural patterns through this process, the more we are exposed to other fans who sing and shout the more we start to behave in a similar way. Kids don't arrive at a football ground primed to hurl abuse at the opposition, they learn like we all do from those around us.

Some people are more susceptible to this than others, and we all have our own moral compass, so while I will happily sing "your support is fúcking sh1t" I won't sing songs about wishing David Beckham's kids have cancer. Most Irish soccer fans (in my experience) who reject this sort of behaviour see very little league football, and so are more immune to this process of socialisation. I on the other hand have been to games numbering in the 100s, have travelled home and away (or away and away depending on your perspective) with mates who've been going years, have drank in local pubs etc etc.

The same applies at GAA or rugby fixtures, except people introduced to those sports learn a different form of behaviour than soccer fans.

There is no general behavioural model that applies to all soccer fans: in Italy fans are more likely to express themselves through banners than singing, and when they do sing it is lead by fans with loudhailers...in the UK it is more often through singing, and that singing is more spontaneous.

Most people have complex identities, thus I can attend a GAA match and enjoy the company and good-natured rivalry with other fans, while at a soccer match I am segregated, and I behave in a totally different way.

Starting to make any sense?

It certainly an attempt at an explanation, the first so far in the thread.

Excellent post.

Kess73

rarnes1 wrote: »

Possibly soccer attracted what people/media call lower classes of society historically I'm not sure. As I said earlier I'm not up to speed on the history of football segregation.

To use examples of a sport you referred to I've witnessed/read about violence at GAA matches plenty of times amongst players and supporters.

Only recently in galway a referee had to be escorted off the pitch after been attacked by players and fans. he had to hide in his locked dressing room until the guards came while supporters tried to get into him.



I find it hard to believe this fan wasn't thrown out of the ground for reported racist abuse. It isn't tolerated anymore.

Next time you are at Anfield, have a chat with a steward and let one of them tell you what they can or cannot do with regards to complaints.

Stewards cannot kick someone out if a report of racism or abuse is made, they have to witness it and then call the police in the ground.

therecklessone

No, people should concentrate on supprting their team, not windin g up opposition fans

Kess73 wrote: »

Next time you are at Anfield, have a chat with a steward and let one of them tell you what they can or cannot do with regards to complaints.

Stewards cannot kick someone out if a report of racism or abuse is made, they have to witness it and then call the police in the ground.

Report all racist abuse to KROF:

http://www.kickitout.org/246.php

Racist abuse is a criminal offence, if a steward refuses to take action report it to a police officer who must do something, thought may necessitate you or the victim acting as a witness.

Liverpool's own advice is here

GLaDOS

No, people should concentrate on supprting their team, not windin g up opposition fans

baz2009 wrote: »

Banter and chanting amongt fans is what makes live soccer so much better than telly soccer.
I've sat in the 'prawn sandwich seats' in Old Trafford, a friend of my fathers has a season ticket and so do two of his mates, they let us use two of them for a game against Charlton, it was unbelievably boring sitting up there, no singing, no noise and only a clap when United scored.
I've sat in the 'family' section, also very dull and boring.
The best place I've sat was in the end beside the away fans(City:P), the worst view I've had in OT, but it was by far the best craic I've had at any match, any sport, not just soccer.
It was the hooligans who got the people singing, they did well there, but I hate the bad name that they give soccer supporters.
I hope I'm sitting around that area again, for the Liverpool game in March.

Sitting...at a football match?

Kess73

therecklessone wrote: »

You're equating "sign on" to the rest of the things you've listed. Wow...

Let me paint a picture...a few years ago Spurs took 5000 fans to Wigan for our first visit in the PL. During the match a lone Wigan fan was spotted off to our right, nobody sitting anywhere near him, and he was quickly christened "Billy No Mates". A good half of our fans spent most of the first half singing "one Billy No Mates" at him. When someone else came down to sit beside him we sang "Billy's got a boyfriend" It was good natured, and he took it the right way. At half time a Spurs fan gave £20 to a steward who walked around to Billy and gave him the money to buy himself a pint. Billy fecked off, had his beer, then cam back with the change, and the steward came back to the Spurs fan.

It was funny, and it was good natured, and it helped liven up a cold November afternoon.

Would I walk up to a randomer in a pub and call him Billy No Mates cos he's sitting on his own? Absolutely not, I have a survival instinct that tells me strangers may not see the funny side and might actually want to hurt me. Does that make me a coward?

I notice you didn't take umbrage at my abuse of the referee either, I take it you'd walk up to one in the street and call him a wanker?

Of course being overly abusive to a referee is wrong too, that should go without saying.

And yes it does make you cowardly in that instance in my eyes to answer your question. If you think it is ok to hurl abuse at someone from the safety of a crowd but don't have the backbone to say the same thing to someone face to face, then I call that being cowardly.

You can call it a survival instinct of you like. That Wigan supporter might have taken it the right way as you call it. But maybe he had no choice with a few thousand guys chanting at him. If I had a few thousand chanting at me I would smile and wave too, and damn right I would take the free pint.

The guy could also have been made feel very uncomfortable by it, and had no choice but to go along with what was being said.

I still have a hint of a scouse accent, so If I was walking down the Seven Sisters road on my own after a Spurs versus Liverpool game and you were with a bunch of mates, would that make me fair game for you and your mates to chant at?

The "Sign On" thing is nowhere near as bad as the other things I listed, but if it is just a simple bit of banter then you should be able to come up to someone like me or someone else with a scouse accent in a pub and say it with a smile on your face.

You would not do it because there is a good chance that a person could find it both annoying and insulting, and quickly put you in your place, hopefully in a non violent manner though.

The thing is, the stranger that you are shouting at when you are in a crowd may not like it either, but that stranger has no choice but to take it from you. The guy that gets picked out and chanted at knows to keep his head down, as all it would take is for one or two of the herd chanting at him to turn nasty, and suddenly he could be in a lot of bother.



Seems to me that what is being shown in this thread is a lot of supporters will use the excuse of it is what they are conditioned to do at the game, you yourself have said in a post that you will act in a different manner depending on what sporting event you are at. So basically you follow the mob when in a crowd. You say that it is because you have been at 100's of games. Well I have too, seeing as I lived in Liverpool and was brought to both Liverpool and Tranmere games from a young age, and still get to plenty of games per season, but despite living there, and having had a fair chunk of my schooling there, I still don't see the need to follow the herd.




.

Kess73

therecklessone wrote: »

Report all racist abuse to KROF:

http://www.kickitout.org/246.php

Racist abuse is a criminal offence, if a steward refuses to take action report it to a police officer who must do something, thought may necessitate you or the victim acting as a witness.

Liverpool's own advice is here

I am well aware that it is a criminal offence, and a steward can refuse to take action if you call them over, and all they can do is tell you to tell a member of the policeforce on duty.

Then it simply becomes a case of one side's words against the word of the other side.

I lived in England long enough to see how ineffective a process it actually is, unfortunately.

3hn2givr7mx1sc

No, people should concentrate on supprting their team, not windin g up opposition fans

ScienceNerd wrote: »

Sitting...at a football match?

Posh seats = Full of old men and women in suits, not really the standing type.
Family section = Full of young children and women, again, not the standing type.
Near the away end = Stood in patches for the first twenty minutes until a mother complained and the stewards said that anyone that stands again would be "escorted out of the stadium". After paying €600 for two people to go to the match, I wasn't going to risk being thrown out.

GLaDOS

No, people should concentrate on supprting their team, not windin g up opposition fans

Layton Raspy Wallflower wrote: »

Near the away end = Stood in patches for the first twenty minutes until a mother complained and the stewards said that anyone that stands again would be "escorted out of the stadium". After paying €600 for two people to go to the match, I wasn't going to risk being thrown out.

Is this common in the EPL? I've never sat for a LOI game.

_blank_

No, people should concentrate on supprting their team, not windin g up opposition fans

I've been in the situation that wigan fan was in, in Tolka Park for the Steua game, down the Ballybough End with all the Romanians, in my Shels t-shirt and scarf.

One of my best experiences at a football match. I gave banter back too, but hotfooted it down to the New Stand for the second half.

Christ, it would have been fair crap if they had said nothing to me.

And, yes, abusing opposition fans at foorball is OK, in fact, it's necessary to let them Cock hicks know they are Cork hicks :pac:

3hn2givr7mx1sc

No, people should concentrate on supprting their team, not windin g up opposition fans

ScienceNerd wrote: »

Is this common in the EPL? I've never sat for a LOI game.

I think there are rules against standing after the Hillsborough incident, but I'm not sure.

Diabhal Beag

No, people should concentrate on supprting their team, not windin g up opposition fans

Not every soccer fan takes abuse of their team or themselves to heart. The conflicting chants can make a ****e game entertaining. Being a Galway United fan we have neither a good crowd or a good team unfortunately

Mr.Nice Guy

It's not something I would be prone to do. I don't have a problem with those who engage in it (depending on what it is they're chanting).

In an ideal world though I wouldn't like to see it happen. At the Ireland/France match for example I'm not sure there will be chants from the Irish fans towards the French fans. The players I'd regard as fair game. I think this is the way it should be ideally.

What I do think is a bigger problem is seeing young people engaging in abuse at grounds. I was watching the Chelsea/United game and I don't know if anyone else say this but in the second half there was a young girl, I'd say no older than 6 or 7, flipping off Ryan Giggs as he went to take the corner! Now maybe some people think this is acceptable, funny etc. but I found this quite shocking and if I'd done the same thing as a kid for a game I attended with my Dad, he would have given me a clip round the ear. I don't particularly care for that type of thing. Just my two cents on it.

Chucky the tree

Does anyone know of any other sport in the world that segregates fans? Rugby League in England is the only other one I can think of.

AntoSRFC

No, people should concentrate on supprting their team, not windin g up opposition fans

Basketball in Turkey id imagine that is segregated. Those Turks are crazy.

Dub13

No, people should concentrate on supprting their team, not windin g up opposition fans

Kess73 wrote: »

It is still two large crowds who support different teams. No doubt those rugby or GAA fans are just as passionate about their teams, but they don't have to drop to the same levels, and still can generate atmosphere at the grounds.

I keep hearing about this great atmosphere at GAA games and I have to say I have never came across one.Maybe my opinion's on a good atmosphere are different than GAA fans.

baz2009 wrote: »

I think there are rules against standing after the Hillsborough incident, but I'm not sure.

Yes you cant stand at a game in the UK,in certain spots like down the back of the kop were I tend to be they turn a blind eye and you can stand.

Helix

No, people should concentrate on supprting their team, not windin g up opposition fans

absolutely nothing wrong with a bit of banter between the fans, adds a hell of a lot to the atmosphere

i love when we're playing against certain teams tbh. the wigan lads are always hilarious for example

The_Kew_Tour

Kess73 wrote: »

I have no idea as to whether they were mixed of not.

But on a smaller scale, take local level rugby in Ireland. Say Cork Cons were Playing Garryowen. I would be stunned to see any need for segregation despite thousands of fans being present. And afterwards they can all walk out of the ground together without punch ups etc.

Same if Munster are playing, there is no need to think that there will be violence amonst fans.

:eek::eek::eek: thousands supporters??? more hundred at best ..

I saw 2 punch ups at the leinster v munster semi final in may..it happens alright in all sports.

The_Kew_Tour

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

It's not something I would be prone to do. I don't have a problem with those who engage in it (depending on what it is they're chanting).

In an ideal world though I wouldn't like to see it happen. At the Ireland/France match for example I'm not sure there will be chants from the Irish fans towards the French fans. The players I'd regard as fair game. I think this is the way it should be ideally.

What I do think is a bigger problem is seeing young people engaging in abuse at grounds. I was watching the Chelsea/United game and I don't know if anyone else say this but in the second half there was a young girl, I'd say no older than 6 or 7, flipping off Ryan Giggs as he went to take the corner! Now maybe some people think this is acceptable, funny etc. but I found this quite shocking and if I'd done the same thing as a kid for a game I attended with my Dad, he would have given me a clip round the ear. I don't particularly care for that type of thing. Just my two cents on it.

yes saw that too. I say few more did too. for me that was shocking alright and sad.

Davidth88

I have been to many ( 100's ) of football games through from the 1970's.

The nature of the acceptable abuse has changed.

We ( Chelsea ) used to sing about gas chambers and whatnot when playing Spurs, it was pretty horrible looking back at it . That would be regarded as totally unacceptable now ( and rightly so ).
Interestingly , Spurs fans call themselves yids, however from what I understand if I was to call them that at SB now within earshot of a steward I would be exiting the ground.

Now I think we need to understand the difference between banter and abuse. Banter is totally acceptable , and indeed I think should be encouraged.
Segregation, it's the natural order of things , even before official segregation fans would congregate with ' their own'
A game where there is no away fans is often sterile , and you just don't get the same atmosphere.

The crowds at GAA / Rugby and football games are totally different.

I don't want to get into the ' GAA/Rugby/Football crowds are better than .... type thing ' thats for another thread on another day I think

GavRedKing

No, people should concentrate on supprting their team, not windin g up opposition fans

Its usually banter and I think that is ok, it usually adds to the general atmosphere and makes match days at some grounds electric.

Mushy

If its banter iis ok, if its abuse, then the line is about to be crossed. Take an example of this idiot:

http://www.leedsunited.com/news/statement-from-millwall-and-the-met-20091106_2247585_1868582

Leeds United wrote:

Millwall Football Club and the Metropolitan Police have issued the following statement...

"On Sunday 25th October 2009 a photograph was published in the News of the World showing a Millwall 'supporter' wearing a Galatasaray shirt with the perpetrator clearly attempting to incite Leeds United fans.

"It has since come to the attention of Millwall FC and the Metropolitan Police that this individual has been wrongly identified as Darren Robertson.

"Mr Robertson and his family have been subjected to an unjustified hate campaign from certain individuals and as such, to prevent this from going
further, we would like to take this opportunity to confirm again that the picture was not Darren Robertson.

"The Metropolitan Police and Millwall FC are continuing their investigation into the true identity of the individual."

Leeds United would appeal to any of their fans who have contacted Mr Robertson to please not do so again.

Morons like that give the game a bad reputation.

DSB

No, people should concentrate on supprting their team, not windin g up opposition fans

Only in Ireland....

flahavaj

Dub13: "I keep hearing about this great atmosphere at GAA games and I have to say I have never came across one.Maybe my opinion's on a good atmosphere are different than GAA fans."

LOL at sweeping generalisations. What matches were these that you've attended in which the atmosphere was so lacking?

Dub13

No, people should concentrate on supprting their team, not windin g up opposition fans

flahavaj wrote: »

LOL at sweeping generalisations. What matches were these that you've attended in which the atmosphere was so lacking?

I don't attend GAA games,but I have seen them on the TV and there are no chants as such no common songs.I am not sure how you can generate a good atmosphere like that.I have been around Croke Park on big match days as a mate used to live next door and I swear to god even with 80k odd people in the ground I did not hear much.

flahavaj

Watching on TV or standing outside the Croke Park are hardly the basis upon which to make such a sweeping generalisation. Croke Park, when packed with 80,000 people (as you yourself say) as it is on All ireland Sunday or when the Dubs play has an UNBELIEVABLE atmosphere.