Tax social welfare?

ParkRunner

Just a random thought I had. Given the enormous budget deficit that currently exists and 1) the fact that a third of public expenditure goes on social welfare 2) worker's income tax rates are already at their limits and 3) it is possible to live a reasonably comfortable life on social welfare taking all supplementary benefits and the declining cost of living into account...would there be much support for social welfare to be taxed at levels akin to income tax?

skearon

EF wrote: »

Just a random thought I had. Given the enormous budget deficit that currently exists and 1) the fact that a third of public expenditure goes on social welfare 2) worker's income tax rates are already at their limits and 3) it is possible to live a reasonably comfortable life on social welfare taking all supplementary benefits and the declining cost of living into account...would there be much support for social welfare to be taxed at levels akin to income tax?

It's already been suggested in the McCarthy report, specifically someone working should not be worse off than someone on welfare in similar circumstances.

old boy

EF wrote: »

Just a random thought I had. Given the enormous budget deficit that currently exists and 1) the fact that a third of public expenditure goes on social welfare 2) worker's income tax rates are already at their limits and 3) it is possible to live a reasonably comfortable life on social welfare taking all supplementary benefits and the declining cost of living into account...would there be much support for social welfare to be taxed at levels akin to income tax?

W.T.F. how does one have a reasonably comfortably life on welfare, come on poster,
you can have my life stye any month or year you like,
it is nice to read that norman tebbit is on boards.ie

skearon

old boy wrote: »

W.T.F. how does one have a reasonably comfortably life on welfare, come on poster,
you can have my life stye any month or year you like,
it is nice to read that norman tebbit is on boards.ie

They manage it in the UK on a third of our rate.

A family of two adults and three kids receive €42,000 per annum on welfare here; how much do you suggest they need to be 'reasonably comfortable' ?

cavedave

old boy

W.T.F. how does one have a reasonably comfortably life on welfare, come on poster,

The only independant costs of living guides i can think of come from student guides. The govenment will claim the cost of living is overly low and unions etc will claim it is really high.

This page puts the cost of being a student at 863 a month.

Expense Monthly
Rent (nationally – for Dublin see below**) 301
Elec/Gas/Bins (Public Utilities) 27
Food 180
Travel (Monthly Commuter Ticket) 93
Books and materials 65
Clothes/Medical 46
Mobile Phone 30
Social Life/Miscellaneous 121
Total 863

themadchef

skearon wrote: »

They manage it in the UK on a third of our rate.

A family of two adults and three kids receive €42,000 per annum on welfare here; how much do you suggest they need to be 'reasonably comfortable' ?

That's me going on the social then! I could be cleaning up! Links to this info? I find it unbelievable.

How do you tax €204 a week?

mikemac

Taxing social welfare means more adminstration.
And if there is one thing we don't need in Ireland it's public servants tied up in administration

Far, far easier to cut the rate and take it from there

And yep, I've lived in Belfast when the Job seekers rate was £56 per week and in 2004, it was over €180 here afaik

skearon

themadchef wrote: »

That's me going on the social then! I could be cleaning up! Links to this info? I find it unbelievable.

How do you tax €204 a week?

Page 199, Volume 2 of the McCarthy report

http://www.finance.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?fn=/documents/PressReleases/2009/bl100vol2.pdf

Kensington

How would you decide a rate of tax for social welfare though? It's very difficult. It'd be easier to just cut it across the board which I suspect is what will happen come December.

As already mentioned, someone in the UK survives on just over one-third of the welfare they'd get here. And the cost of living in the UK is not one third of what it is compared to here.

What is grossly unfair is that a PRSI paying person who's just lost their job is only entitled to the same amount as someone who has been on welfare for years. If they could weed out the scroungers I imagine there could be some pretty nice savings to be made there...

mikemac

Kensington wrote: »

What is grossly unfair is that a PRSI paying person who's just lost their job is only entitled to the same amount as someone who has been on welfare for years.

We need something like the French system
If you lose your job, maybe 75% of your salary for three months, 50% for three months and then you go on minumum rate for the next six months. Hey, maybe €204 since we have it established
And after 12 months and you're not on a FÁS course they you're fecked off job seekers and told to make your own way.

It's not always possible for people to get job but at least attend FÁS or some other course.
And if you're long term-employled still after two years and never signed up to a course then a one way ticket on a ferry out of here

skearon

Kensington wrote: »

How would you decide a rate of tax for social welfare though? It's very difficult. It'd be easier to just cut it across the board which I suspect is what will happen come December.

As already mentioned, someone in the UK survives on just over one-third of the welfare they'd get here. And the cost of living in the UK is not one third of what it is compared to here.

What is grossly unfair is that a PRSI paying person who's just lost their job is only entitled to the same amount as someone who has been on welfare for years. If they could weed out the scroungers I imagine there could be some pretty nice savings to be made there...

I agree, even Eamonn Gilmore on the Panel on Thursday admited that people who refuse to take up employment should have their dole ceased.

A much fairer welfare system is one that pays say 70% of salary to someone who loses their job; reduces welfares rates to those who refuse training, jobs etc; and increase rates to those who take up training courses, do community work etc.

I personally think Ireland should model its welfare system on Hartz IV

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hartz_concept

mikemac

mikemac wrote: »

We need something like the French system
If you lose your job, maybe 75% of your salary for three months, 50% for three months and then you go on minumum rate for the next six months. Hey, maybe €204 since we have it established
And after 12 months and you're not on a FÁS course they you're fecked off job seekers and told to make your own way.

It's not always possible for people to get job but at least attend FÁS or some other course.
And if you're long term-employled still after two years and never signed up to a course then a one way ticket on a ferry out of here

The problem I see with introucing something akin to the "French System" as you describe it above, is that right now is a pretty sh*tty time to introduce such a system.

If there were more jobs than people, I'd fully support the idea. But to introduce such a method when there are clearly a lack of jobs in the country is just ripping the piss in my opinion.


I'm currently attending FAS courses, but the timespan between when I registered with FAS and when I got put on my first course is about 9 months. I did an interview, was told I'd be contacted soon, wrecked their heads on a weekly basis and months later eventually got a letter stating that I could attend a course I had wanted. After that course ended it took four months for me to get onto the next (follow-up) course.

So even if you really want to get stuck into what FAS have to offer, you're still going to be stuck on Welfare for a while anyway (unless they introduce a new kind of payment, where you're not considered a sponger whilst awaiting FAS to get on the blower to you)...

mikemac

Absolutly nobody is calling you a sponger KKV but even you'll admit FÁS isn't the most efficent state agency around.
Not your fault at all.

The only time I was on a government training scheme was with CERT, kinda like FÁS but for the tourism sector. It was excellent and all I did was show up on the open day and sign up.

But that was 2002 and unemployment has rocketed and I don't think CERT exists anymore.
Government agencies can be fantastic at times, sadly they often disappoint.

I loved that course and gained a lot of confidence from it.
And I was a student so didn't get paid a cent. The majority of applicants got training allowances which was the same rate as their dole. They were paid to do that course, I got paid nothing but don't regret it for a second

Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not saying FAS are an amazing thing, nor am I saying they're a terrible effort either. I mean... I think, in the overall running of things, FAS do a pretty good job.

The actual courses themselves are fantastic, and most (all?) have some kind of certificate at the end of them, too (usually FETAC) so it makes you feel like you've actually accomplished something for doing them.

I'm still only starting out with FAS' stuff at the moment, I ended up doing a "Starting With Computers" course at the beginning of this year, and I'm currently doing ECDL with them, so I'm really in no position to complain.

I mean, to be fair to FAS and Ireland as a whole, I like computers and FAS are giving me €200 per week to learn more about them. So in that respect, I really can't fault the system at all. I mean, I'll probably never really know a lot about computers, unless I went and got some proper third level education on them, but FAS are offering a lot of stuff, from basics like turning a laptop on and off, to intermediate stuff like "Office Administration" and then there's even the Back To Education (which you get paid for) if you want to really study further (I know FAS don't directly have involvement with Back To Education, but it still exists, and is there to be taken advantage of).


As someone with no real education (Junior Cert), I feel I'm in a position where I'd turn down a job in favour of following FAS' computer courses as far as I can. I know that's not really the 'right' thing to say (on boards, of all places, where an unemployed person is the Devil), but I'd really rather avoid stacking shelves in Tesco for the rest of my life.


I do think that you're partially right in what you say above though, when you say:

"after 12 months and you're not on a FÁS course they you're fecked off job seekers and told to make your own way"


Whilst I do think it's a little extreme, if people aren't going to try and even get onto a FAS course then there definitely should be a genuine reason sought from them.

I know it can be difficult for a lot of people, especially people who have spent years becoming qualified in a certain area, to adjust to a change where their services aren't really needed at the moment, but they should all be attempting to do FAS courses, even if it's just to pad up a CV.


My brother's a qualified Cabinet Maker, and because Cabinet Making isn't really in much demand at the moment, he's using FAS to his advantage, too. They're paying for him to take 10 lessons and a test in Rigid Truck driving (not sure what license it is) and I think after this "course" he can then do one (again where FAS will pay) on articulated truck driving.


He'll probably never, ever drive a truck of any description, but you'd have to be mental to turn down such an opportunity.


I think that people who are on Welfare long-term and show no intention of doing anything or taking advantage of the many FAS/free courses or schemes offered by any of the governement bodies should be taxed, or have their money cut by a percentage, to add an incentive for them to do something. I know a guy, 35, on Welfare for at least 10 years (i'd imagine he's been on for about 15-20, but I don't know for sure) and they never even rang him in all that time to means test it or any anything.

On the other hand, I think if people are making any effort at all to try and make the best of a bad situation, then they should get more or have incentive bonuses or something in place to ensure that such people don't feel like they'd be better off in front of the TV.


Wow, I'm really, really rambling on here, so I'm gonna end this post fast.


The country is in debt, and everyone's money will be cut (and rightfully so). I do think however, that there should be some method used to ensure that those who are trying to do something with their time get better treatment than those who piss their money away weekly.


However, I remember reading on here that they wanted to halve it for anyone under 24, and I thoroughly disagree with that. I think that if there are going to be cuts to Welfare (which there most likely will be), then they should be across the board cuts that effect everyone claiming it equally.


I think I have rambled on far beyond the means where my post even has a point to it anymore, so deep apologies if this post has taken the thread really off-topic, or is just a bunch of nonsensical waffling.