"Worried about my sanity" thread on PI

davyjose

Go to the dr in the morning.

....was the advice offered by an experienced mod in response to this:

I've been worrying that I might be mad for 11 years now.

When I was 15 I went through a weird stage of hearing voices. Sometimes it would seem as if an invisible person standing right next to me would say my name in my ear, or call me from nearby. Sometimes I got a shiver down my spine and could feel their breath on my ear.

I also heard scary voices a couple of times, the one that really stands out in my mind was when I was 15 or 16, I was alone in my room and I heard what sounded like Hitler angrily barking orders in German. That was really scary.

One time I was walking through town, gazing up at a balcony on which people were walking and suddenly everything went into slow motion and it seemed as if a woman standing on the balcony looked at me with intensely religious eyes and hissed "evil!" at me as I walked past.

Those are just a couple of examples, and I had never used drugs at that time, however towards the end of my 16th year I did a bit of ecstasy and weed. I was going through a hard time then as a friend of mine had just killed himself, and one night whilst on ecstasy I had what felt like a religious revelation, like God was touching my soul. I put it down to the drugs, I thought it was just the MDMA affecting my brain so I disregarded it.

At 17 I went through a major depressive episode and started having weird hallucinations. I tried to kill myself and ended up in hospital for a week because the attempt I made was so serious. It was not a cry for help, I really intended to die.

Since then I've always thought about suicide. However, even after quitting drugs I kept having these intense religious experiences, I've been getting them for nearly 10 years now. Sometimes the feeling of bliss and oneness with God is so intense I have to lie down because of the waves of pleasure rushing through my body. At times like that I think I'll never be depressed again, but then the depression comes back and I start thinking about suicide again. Sometimes I feel the bliss and depression at the same time, which is very confusing.

I'm so tired of living like this, I put my symptoms into a search engine and it said I could be bipolar. I do not want to go to the doctor because some of my medical notes from the time of my suicide attempt have already prevented me from getting a job I wanted, if I add even more cray stuff to my file I might as well give up now. Plus I don't want to be dosed up on pills. I wonder constantly - is this feeling of oneness with God real, should I trust it, or am I just nuts?

Part of me doesn't even want to try to be cured, because it's so hard getting your hopes up and having them dashed. When I've been feeling religiously euphoric for a while and then come crashing back down with depression, it's much harder than if I'd never been euphoric at all. Part of me just wants to cave in to the darkness because it would be easier. I don't enjoy life, I don't think I ever have, I've never wanted to exist but I'm not depressed quite enough to kill myself right now (plus I don't want to hurt my family). Living in this limbo is awful, I would rather either be totally happy or totally depressed. This constant up and down is a nightmare.

I don't know what I want from this thread really, I know people will tell me to visit the doctor but I am not going to for the aforementioned reasons. Lately I've been doing the things that I was doing during my period of major depression (eg listening to the same depressing music and looking at the same depressing things), almost as if I'm trying to get back to that totally depressed stage again so this can all be over. But at other times I listen to beautiful uplifting religious music and try to be totally happy.

I just don't know what to do, I'm not even 30 yet and I can't face another 50 years of this.

I'm sorry, but here is someone who clearly has issues, and has asked for help for something that I can't even imagine how sh1t it can be, and they get a seven word response, and a locked thread.

I'm not trying to rage against the system here, and I agree the advice was correct, and the thread probably did need to be locked, but the advice was just so perfunctory and cold, it left me feeling pretty p1ssed off (and I use boards as a source of easy entertainment predominantly). I mean, it's not like the last 11 years of the OP's life were spent forgetting about the existence of Doctors. Surely if it were that simple s/he would have done so long ago. Anyway, I gotta say, if I was that jaded, I'd probably relinquish my mod-ship of that particular forum.

Just had to say it...

Kiera

The mod was 110% right to respond in that way. Boards cannot give out mental health advice no matter who is qualified to do so on here.

Wibbs

I understand where you're coming from but IMHO such as it is the mod in question is one of the most un jaded people I know. But they know theres is only so much help a web site can give. Like medical advice any advice given on that thread could have caused even more damage. The advice as it was laid out was good advice. This person needs to talk to a qualified health professional, given the apparent severity of their symptoms(or a crisis first call like the Samaritans). That's where they will hopefully garner the best help for them. If it was a physical illness question the same advice would apply. It would be wonderful if professional advice could be given through this medium, but the medium itself is the problem. On so many levels. Any professional would agree. My 2 cents anyway.

Gordon

davyjose wrote: »

....was the advice offered by an experienced mod in response to this:



I'm sorry, but here is someone who clearly has issues, and has asked for help for something that I can't even imagine how sh1t it can be, and they get a seven word response, and a locked thread.

I'm not trying to rage against the system here, and I agree the advice was correct, and the thread probably did need to be locked, but the advice was just so perfunctory and cold, it left me feeling pretty p1ssed off (and I use boards as a source of easy entertainment predominantly). I mean, it's not like the last 11 years of the OP's life were spent forgetting about the existence of Doctors. Surely if it were that simple s/he would have done so long ago. Anyway, I gotta say, if I was that jaded, I'd probably relinquish my mod-ship of that particular forum.

Just had to say it...

I think you're being extremely dismissive of how that thread progressed before the lock happened, and you are being disingenious by keeping that out of your post.

Wibbs

Kiera wrote: »

The mod was 110% right to respond in that way. Boards cannot give out mental health advice no matter who is qualified to do so on here.

+1 and I would add that PI/RI's purpose is to give a general and often anon community response and feedback and perspective to less dangerous questions. It's a fine line I grant you, but for the most part pretty well balanced. This poster needs far more than that and I truly hope they get it. Obviously reading between the lines inexpertly the poster appears to have enough of a handle on the fact there is a problem and will seek the help they need and get it. So that they live their life to the potential that's clearly there.

Wibbs

Gordon wrote: »

I think you're being extremely dismissive of how that thread progressed before the lock happened, and you are being disingenious by keeping that out of your post.

Very much so. Indeed the advice given considering the situation was good advice.

Sharpshooter

OP, the charter in PI is very clear and precise.
With very helpful links for users to follow up on.

Moderators can only guide someone in the right direction and as far as I can see that is what happened in the thread you are referring to.

davyjose

Gordon wrote: »

I think you're being extremely dismissive of how that thread progressed before the lock happened, and you are being disingenious by keeping that out of your post.

Are you saying that somewhere between dudara's thoughtful, measured response and Thydaedal's seven letter shut-down, the OP did something to offend? Because it struck me that this person had issues - personal ones at that. Maybe a bit too heavy to be able to offer advice on here, but certainly deserving of some time and patience (as demonstrated, like I said, by dudara) But maybe that's just me being dismissive and disingenuous :rolleyes:

People do have problems like that, you know. they exist. It's not all "I slept with my boyfriend's best friend."

Dave

Dudess

No medical advice sure, but surely the response could have been worded more compassionately...

Rev. BlueJeans

It's above and beyond the remit of a user (or moderator) on a bulletin board to act as a counsellor by proxy. While the last message may have seemed harsh-and may well have been worded better, the previous poster had pretty much summed up what the OP needed to do.

In at least once instance I'm aware of, a moderator ended up on an all night vigil with someone that stated they were on the verge of suicide. They cannot and should not cross that line.

Rev. BlueJeans

Dudess wrote: »

No medical advice sure, but surely the response could have been worded more compassionately...

I agree, but in fairness, Dudara covered all the bases.

davyjose

Rev. BlueJeans wrote: »

It's above and beyond the remit of a user (or moderator) on a bulletin board to act as a counsellor by proxy. While the last message may have seemed harsh-and may well have been worded better, the previous poster had pretty much summed up what the OP needed to do.

In at least once instance I'm aware of, a moderator ended up on an all night vigil with someone that stated they were on the verge of suicide. They cannot and should not cross that line.

Yeah, and again I'm not complaining about the mod's actions, I just feel, well ... dudess said in one line, what I said in about fifty.

And it wasn't meant as a dig at Thydeadal either. Suggesting she was jaded was overboard, and I apologise for that. But I do feel that particular response was huuried and lacked any compassion.

Look, I've seen these threads locked a million times, but on this occasion, it did bother me.

davyjose

Rev. BlueJeans wrote: »

I agree, but in fairness, Dudara covered all the bases.

Yeah but the thread was not locked. Which effectively meant it was open to discussion.

Nevyn

And that discussion can not be closely monitored enough over night,
The op got helpful advice and a chance to express how they are feeling, they got that outlet, thier post was approved and answered.

So I should have locked it and not have bothered to post?
I did all I could do which was let the thread progress and then when they had been heard and got a reply closed it urging them to go see the dr in the morning.

I know people have real problems more then 'should I break up wiht my bf' but often
they are beyond the scope and remit of the forum and we lock such threads for the
good of the op after urging them to seek professional help.

There was no way I was going to be all offering the op a hug and comfort and ecuddles,
I don't want them latching on to me and pming instaed of seeking the help of a professional and yes that has happened in the past.

AckwelFoley

PI is not the Smarathans or anything akin to it.

Its a place for people with personal issues to look for advice - not find a cure.

I have ibn the recent past had some issues with how moderators would deal with certain issues in PI. Howwever after debating it for a while and listening to what has happened in the past i feel that they infact do handle it in the best way, for both the sanity of the user and more important - the sanity of the moderator, yes the moderators sanity is paramount

faceman

The right thing to do was lock the thread. The issues outlined in the post are clearly something that only a professional can deal with.

However the problem in these cases is getting an individual to realise that they need to seek professional help. If they knew that help was what was necessary themselves, they wouldnt be posting on boards at all. There is a MASSIVE stigma with mental health in ireland with inadequate awareness and financial support for it. People are afraid to talk about their mental help, for fear of being considered mad or an outcast.

It doesnt take a genius to work out that neither Dudara or Thaedydal's posts are going to help that OP realise the he/she needs to seek out professional help, and thats certainly not Thaed's or dudura's fault or responsibility as a mod. Is there a better way to offer those who need professional help a guiding hand to the pro's? I dont know, i the last person in the world to be giving advice to anyone.

On the other hand, we can claim that PI is not a haven or place for people with certain problems to go to. But its going to happen. No mod or poster knows the full medical history or a poster or anything about them. There is always a risk that even the most basic of PI issue has a more serious issue hidden under it that none of us can see and therefore its possible that deterimental advice could be given.

PI, IMO, is best probably served as a support group rather than anything else. It does however in initial appearance, look like a forum that welcomes all issues with open arms which obviously isnt the case.

DeVore

Didnt we come up with a worded response to these cases after the last time we dealt with this issue?

(I havent read the thread in question, I'm just remembering there being some good wording proposed and accepted the last time).

DeV.

My name is URL

I know that boards can't risk taking on the responsibility of issues like this, but does that have to mean that people can't talk to someone that's having a dilemma?

I mean the user was anonymous and chose to vent on the forum, surely it wouldn't hurt to allow users to give them some support.

As for them latching onto Mods etc, while I'm sure that's a possibility, I'd say it's rare occurrence

Anyway my point is that giving valid advice like going to the doctor is all well and good but it shouldn't be the only avenue, why not allow the person with the problem to use the site as an ad-hoc way to get some support and friendly interaction? I'm sure that works wonders for anyone desperate enough to start a thread in the first place

OldGoat

The wording may have come across as impersonal but surly thats the point. The message was clear, concise, to the point and compleatly unambigious.
Anything else MAY be open to misinterpertation.

sam34

faceman wrote: »

However the problem in these cases is getting an individual to realise that they need to seek professional help. If they knew that help was what was necessary themselves, they wouldnt be posting on boards at all.


It doesnt take a genius to work out that neither Dudara or Thaedydal's posts are going to help that OP realise the he/she needs to seek out professional help, and thats certainly not Thaed's or dudura's fault or responsibility as a mod. Is there a better way to offer those who need professional help a guiding hand to the pro's? I dont know, i the last person in the world to be giving advice to anyone.

but, how do you do that in PI?
i'm a psychiatrist, and it can be hard enough to do it in real life, when you have the back up of other team members, ward nurses, community nurses, psychologists and social workers, all agreeing that someone has a mental illness... sometimes the person cant/wont take that on board at all. having/getting/retaining insight is a difficult thing with serious mental illness, there are loads of books on the matter.

how can random people here on boards, who are not qualified to make diagnoses, or even attempts at diagnoses, even begin to go about convincing someone to seek professional help?

it would be really irresponsible and dangerous to say "from what you've posted i think you have condition x/y/z"

there's a reason why no medical advice is given on this site, and it's that those who will post a diagnosis or treatment plan on a public website, based solely on what info the poster has given, are certainly not qualified to be doing so. no doctor worth their salt would go around giving online diagnoses and treatment advice.

all you can do with someone like the op here is direct them towards a doctor. getting involved in protracted discussions will not help them in any way.

faceman

sam34 wrote: »

how can random people here on boards, who are not qualified to make diagnoses, or even attempts at diagnoses, even begin to go about convincing someone to seek professional help?

Then why is the forum offering a conduit for help when the reality is that no qualified advice can ever be giving or appropriate guidance to direct posters toward professional help is not given?

Genuine people who are posting online are making the decision to seek help from an anonymous internet forum as opposed to their GP or other professional counsellor. Is there anything that can truly be gained by the OP for posting? Is there anything of benefit to the forum and site by attracting those type of posts?

I think you're missing my point tho. I wasnt suggesting medical advice should be given.

Just as a footnote, none of the my comments should be interpreted as being negative toward the mods of the forum. Ive met Thaed and Wibbs a few times so hopefully they know Im trying to be constructive with my comments.

Nevyn

In my experience many people talk about getting help or going to get help for a good while before they actually go and get help.

This sort of procrastination isn't good for them, it's been on the increase in pi so much so we have had to for the first time ban people for thier own good as they are just posting about getting help but not actually doing anything about it, which is detremental to themsleves first and for most.

The pi mods have always felt a duty of care to wards those who post in the forum,
but that can mean not just be supporitve and caring but it can also mean being firm with people and even tough love when needed.

Yes the forum has be used as a platform to help people for posters to share and support each other and share experience and information but only to a point.

There are forums where people can share a hell of a lot more and a different tact is taken but they are not general discussion sites like this one they are dedicated sites to usually one issue with trained staff watching such exchanges and do not suffer from the same ammount of muppertry and trolling that PI due to be part of a larger site.

There are sites out there which cover the topics like some of what PI does but they are not part of a big site like boards is. IT has it's benefits more then it has drawback imho but comparing pi to stand alone targeted sites for issues is not comparing like with like.

sam34

faceman wrote: »

Then why is the forum offering a conduit for help when the reality is that no qualified advice can ever be giving or appropriate guidance to direct posters toward professional help is not given?

Genuine people who are posting online are making the decision to seek help from an anonymous internet forum as opposed to their GP or other professional counsellor. Is there anything that can truly be gained by the OP for posting? Is there anything of benefit to the forum and site by attracting those type of posts?

well imho the forum should not (and does not) offer a conduit for help - it is all over the charter and boards general rules that no medical advice should be given.

appropriate guidance can be given - "speak to a gp". really, how much more guidance can be given - how can any poster know whether teh OP needs to see a counsellor/life coach/psychologist etc etc - imo the only advice that should be given is talk to a GP. nobody on this forum knows what is most appropriate beyond that.

sure, people seek help here, but that does not mean the help-seeking is appropriate and it certainly does not mean that inappropriate help and guidance should be given

DublinWriter

faceman wrote: »

Then why is the forum offering a conduit for help when the reality is that no qualified advice can ever be giving or appropriate guidance to direct posters toward professional help is not given?

I think maybe the answer would be to have a stock response that states why the thread must be closed and that also lists a number of support lines & organisations.

I would agree with the OP that simply closing a thread along the lines of no discussion allowed. Thread closed may look a bit curt and heartless to those who aren't aware of the legal issues.

faceman

sam34 wrote: »

well imho the forum should not (and does not) offer a conduit for help - it is all over the charter and boards general rules that no medical advice should be given.

appropriate guidance can be given - "speak to a gp". really, how much more guidance can be given - how can any poster know whether teh OP needs to see a counsellor/life coach/psychologist etc etc - imo the only advice that should be given is talk to a GP. nobody on this forum knows what is most appropriate beyond that.

sure, people seek help here, but that does not mean the help-seeking is appropriate and it certainly does not mean that inappropriate help and guidance should be given

The forum is called Personal Issues yet there is no definition within the Charter to define what is considered a personal advice. Links are provided to external sites for many topics. A poster could be forgiven for thinking that the forum facilitates issues that simply cannot be facilitated. Perhaps a rethink of the forum name and a few lines as to what can be discussed in the forum wouldnt go amiss?

Although Im very aware that most posters dont read the charter anyway!