Can we just all pull together

ardmacha

I am a teacher and ya i think i cud definately take a pay cut to help out, so long as everyone earning more than me also does, including private sector. I earn bout 400 a week so won't be hard findin those that earn more than me.

Not an English teacher, most likely not a teacher at all.

dvpower

rebel10 wrote: »

Sick of being made to feel guilty for being in a profession that requires you to work overtime without pay constantly

... you were doing so well up to this point
(bloody teachers:D)

irish_bob

diverdriver wrote: »

We shouldn't be comparing ourselves to France or Germany but to the smaller countries of Europe of comparable size or population. Belgium, Finland, Denmark, Norway, Sweden. They all remained more comfortable and in the case of Norway certainly the richest.

wages here ( especially in the public sector ) are much higher than in those countries , countries which are all bar belguim richer than us

congo_90

So heres an idea.
We have plenty of skilled tradesmen (and women) currently on the bread line yes?

The gov is fooked and we're handing out social welfare (some more money). Now I'm just off the social welfare myself. I should still be on it but took the moral high ground of working a ridiculously low paying job and cutting back big time.

back to my point.

we need

• Proper broadband
• Hospitals
• Schools
• Roads and infrastructure

Lets focus on just one
Schools. I'm only out of school a while now myself. Guess what my classroom was? A freezing cold portacabin.

What do you need to build schools? builders. you need labourers, electricians, plasterers, carpenters. We have a surplus of these people. So instead of putting them in dole ques why not offer an incentive even just 15euro perweek more than the dole and offer them a job to build? that'll start putting tax back into the gov.
these builders need supplies like bricks, lights, wiring, cement,concrete etc.. So now we need roads and trucks and people to drive said trucks! Those trucks can be filled with cement etc which creates even more jobs. someone has to fill that truck. someone had to get that cement. those trucks need maintanance and I happen to know theres 30jobs in one such company relying on trucks.

Now who's gonna pay them? thats right. The gov pays them. The gov takes a small bit of tax off them. They get an educated generation and mammy and daddy keep their jobs to feed their children.
for those who work outside the construction trade then their companies will begin to see some sort of business.
Same for hospitals and roads. If the gov was smart and got things done cheap we'd be back in business!

that school is now built. Stick 40 teachers in there.

Broadband... Well enough people have studied IT courses etc to know what to do!

Sure the gov is broke but a lil loan off the eu and it will all offset within 2-3 years because now we're not paying people to be unemployed but the gov is paying them an honest wage until they can set themselves up!

Think about it. I know i'm not saying it right but it does make sense.

Like I said. I took myself off the social welfare to try help. I'd rather earn a lil and be honest than take off a fellow irishman and then complain. That's not to say those who have mortgages etc should follow me as I have very little debts

dvpower

^^ Sounds like you're calling for a stimulus package. That's already been ruled out. We could not raise money to do this.

The reason that we're looking for €4bn of cuts this year is because if we don't the markets may refuse to lend us the money that we need to pay for our existing commitments.

Gurgle

congo_90 wrote: »

instead of putting them in dole ques why not offer an incentive even just 15euro perweek more than the dole...

And right there is where it all falls apart.
That is never going to work without a real incentive. Remove the dole and make these 25 hour per week minimum wage jobs, then you'll get some takers.

bigeasyeah

NO

ardmacha

That's already been ruled out. We could not raise money to do this.

Now here's an idea. I work for the government. Why not take one month of my salary and give it to a couple of out of work builders. Then give me a voucher for a couple of weeks work from one of these builder types hired by the government, so that I can get my house insulated or painted or whatever. The other half of the builders time could be used fixing a school or insulating the house of an OAP or whatever. I'm happy, the builder is happy, the OAP might even be happy. The government saves the dole payments off the national debt.

rebel10

ardmacha wrote: »

Not an English teacher, most likely not a teacher at all.

Charming. Well suppose if thats the reaction i get then perhaps i shouldn't be worried bout helping those who have lost jobs and focus on keeping mine. Not an English teacher and don't know many people that would falsely claim to be right now.

jetfiremuck

Teachers pay reflect work for 9 months of the year. That and security benefits and state guaranteed pension.

bobbyjoe

If Cowen et all weren't earning more than Obama and Fitzy wasn't giving the country the finger I'd take the sharing the pain thing more seriously.

dvpower

ardmacha wrote: »

Now here's an idea. I work for the government. Why not take one month of my salary and give it to a couple of out of work builders. Then give me a voucher for a couple of weeks work from one of these builder types hired by the government, so that I can get my house insulated or painted or whatever. The other half of the builders time could be used fixing a school or insulating the house of an OAP or whatever. I'm happy, the builder is happy, the OAP might even be happy. The government saves the dole payments off the national debt.

Why are you happy? You just gave up a months pay for a couple of weeks work. You just paid so some OAP could get their house insulated.

mikehn

I dont know about anybody else but I dont lay the blame for the present crisis at the bankers or builders door, I blame the lack of supervision that allowed them to get away with their foolish policies. The present government has a lot to answer for and they are not living up to their responsibilities now.
We need clear decisive leadership, we need a taoiseach that we feel knows what he is doing and is not someone that wont make a decision until he is backed into a corner.
I had a laugh today listening to the Matt Cooper show when he pointed out the the possible scrappage scheme wasnt going to be such a wonderful idea and one of our esteened ministers said; well we have to start somewhere Yes we do when the proposal to reduce some of the ministerial posts was floated the gov line was that it would only save a couple of million and there were more significant aveues to be explored. well it would be a start and it would go some way to to suggest that our politicians are not totally focused on milking joe public for all hes worth.
The senate is another unecessary expense at the moment, it sould at least be suspended for the duration of the nama accord.
Ok rant over (by the way I am a dispirited Fianna Fail supporter) I am not slagging for slaggings sake.

Milstream

diverdriver wrote: »

The answer is no, milstream. The reasons as addressed on this thread and one or two others is that we in this country have no real sense of nationhood. Shocking as that may sound. I really don't believe we actually see ourselves in terms of being Irish. It's all down to the county you live in, town, village or the group you are a member of, be it farmers, doctors, soldiers, sailors or candlestickmakers. Dannyboy and baa expressed similar sentiments.

It's rare that you hear of a politician speak for the county as a whole. They only look after their constituents. Decisions are often made for local purposes rather than strategic reasons.

So we don't want to work together for the good of all. We want to protect what he have and to hell with the rest. We are still essentially tribal in character. That's how the English had no real trouble taking over all those years ago and why we continue to come across as a immature disordered country.

We have no strong leadership, just a bunch of self serving second rate politicians out for their own gain, not to mention a Taoiseach who only got the job because the last one had his hand in till and because he was next in line within the party.

Then of course we have the traditional begrudgers, the Kensintons. Damm you milstream for trying to improve your lot and believing that there was more to life than scrimping and saving and that you could actually live in a nice house just like all those other people. Don't you know your place? It's your mistake to imagine for a moment that Ireland is just like all the other countries in Europe, comfortable, free and rich. We should have stayed poor and drunk.

So will we pull together, No, not a chance. This country needs to change.

We should have stayed poor and drunk. Are you gone crazy. If you asked your parents or grand parents of the hardship they had in years gone by ie the 50's,60's, 70's, 80's. Yes we went crazy borrowing but hey sh8t happens. Lets build a bridge, get over it and move on.

congo_90

*note edited*

dvpower wrote: »

^^ Sounds like you're calling for a stimulus package. That's already been ruled out. We could not raise money to do this.

The reason that we're looking for €4bn of cuts this year is because if we don't the markets may refuse to lend us the money that we need to pay for our existing commitments.

But we're already forkin out money for someone to sit there essentially the tax payer and gov is paying for these people (not specific due to original post just example), to sit there and collect the money which I know is an absolute pain in the hole. Add 15euro more perweek or pay the same rate but take a small amount of income tax. Essentially send someone to work a full week without time and a half and pay them accordingly. (minimum wage) which works out better than the dole and maybe take a small tax (the income levy+15%) so the gov. is getting some sort of return and reducing actual unemployment figures which could open up international resources.

Gurgle wrote: »

And right there is where it all falls apart.
That is never going to work without a real incentive. Remove the dole and make these 25 hour per week minimum wage jobs, then you'll get some takers.

As I say above. Make them work a proper labour's work. give em minimum to 10 euro p/h. Anyone who wants to do it can and contribute to a better Ireland. I cannot emphasise the last point. Do you wanna be known as the lazy man robbing his country or the bread winner out working the honest wage and bringing home enough money to adequately supply said family?

another incentive could be a reduction in fuel bills (electricity, gas/oil) provided you work. This is based on the gov partly owning for example e.s.b and would encourage a strained public service back to life with new force and perks.

This system could work. once the skilled labour market bounces back to level then the rest of the academic (IT, administration etc) jobs should bounce back too due to demand and what I said earlier in terms of broadband etc. People shall have some money but not millions as things won't be over priced. More on this below

However,
hotels and such things will not benefit from my system. not for a while Pubs and restaraunts maybe because people will have some cash.
Irish hotels must lower prices in ~2years to match demand. Pubs and off licences have already began this. Tonight I had a pint for €3.50 in a well established pub. 2 years ago it was €4.30. Again, suppliars and a large cirlce of companies should lower their now pie in the sky profit margins and look after their loyal customers/ employees rather than expecting the same profit.

In conclusion the entire country. Carefully maintained via a tight and restricting budget would bring us out of recession and if prices were somewhat regulated. A lot more jobs could be saved.

ardmacha

Why are you happy? You just gave up a months pay for a couple of weeks work. You just paid so some OAP could get their house insulated.

Something has to give. I would be happy if the money really went on employing people, my salary was not cut for other years and the money did not go to bankers.

congo_90

dvpower wrote: »

Why are you happy? You just gave up a months pay for a couple of weeks work. You just paid so some OAP could get their house insulated.

Not everyone bought their parents/grandparents large modern homes.
not that I'm saying you did but do think about what your saying. I'm sure the poster you quoted was speaking figurativtly, not literally

dvpower

congo_90 wrote: »

Not everyone bought their parents/grandparents large modern homes.
not that I'm saying you did but do think about what your saying. I'm sure the poster you quoted was speaking figurativtly, not literally

No. He was speaking literally.
>>

ardmacha wrote: »

Something has to give. I would be happy if the money really went on employing people, my salary was not cut for other years and the money did not go to bankers.

dvpower

congo_90 wrote: »

But we're already forkin out money for someone to sit there essentially the tax payer and gov is paying for these people (not specific due to original post just example), to sit there and collect the money which I know is an absolute pain in the hole. Add 15euro more perweek or pay the same rate but take a small amount of income tax. Essentially send someone to work a full week without time and a half and pay them accordingly. (minimum wage) which works out better than the dole and maybe take a small tax (the income levy+15%) so the gov. is getting some sort of return and reducing actual unemployment figures which could open up international resources.

Ok. A kind of work for dole+ scheme. Fair enough. I'm not sure the public sector unions would wear it.

congo_90

dvpower wrote: »

Ok. A kind of work for dole+ scheme. Fair enough. I'm not sure the public sector unions would wear it.

Yes.
You raise a very good point. Could we get skilled labour on basic pay (starter pay for pubic sector). This would keep the unions happy.
Note that my idea is based on the gov investing in people not banks for 2-4 years until the people can re-establish themselves on independant companies again but as I pointed out, on restrictions to remove what happened in celtic tiger where even though cost of living was high. The cost of property ownership was 2.3 times what it should have been. I don't have figures to back this up. All is based on personal calculations, observation and general info.
I strongly believe that my 3 last post in this thread will honestly help. Don't bail the banks, Bail Companies. Give them and employees a chance (6 months) with the above system and i'd honestly put 10 years wages on the line to say it would work. The gov Can get this money. We're already 12 billion over our euro limits within the eu agreements. Surely we can push a bit saying we're instantly fixing (or making positive steps to) our economy rather than saying 'sure in 4years time something might happen. Agree?

@dvpower,
Apologeses. I mis-read that post.

dan_d

Actually yes, Milstream, I agree with you.

What is our problem? Besides moaning that it " wasn't my fault this happened, I didn't buy a house/live beyond my means/get huge bonuses, I'm not prepared to accept that MY pay should be cut" etc, etc, etc.
Are we not over that yet????????It's boring as hell listening to the same old moaning. Let's divide society into neat little boxes will we? - those who bought houses, those who didn't, those who blew their monthly pay packets in BT, those who didn't, those who were builders, those who aren't....those who's fault it is (excluding bankers/politicians/builders/public sector workers earning less than the "average" wage, whatever the hell that is), and those who's fault it isn't (again excluding the previous list)....

Honestly we just need to get over ourselves. House prices have to fall.You can't be a millionaire coz you sell a house. It's known as normality. Public sector wages have to fall. Too much money going out, not enough coming in. Dare I say it, social welfare, child benefit and the minimum wage have to fall. Again, costing too much money. We will be in line with the rest of Europe. Again. Normality.

Effects? Mortgage payments are a massive problem(for, I might point out, me too). There has to be a package/agreement established that allows people leeway on their repayments. The banks played a large part in contributing to this mess, and were bailed out, so it should be expected of them - enforced on them - that a system of some sort is put in place.

The cost of living is high. It is relative to our wages.Wages fall - people can no longer afford goods - cost of living drops.The adjustment period hurts like hell, but it's got to happen.

Most importantly we need to focus on creating sustainable jobs, and making the most of what we have here and getting people back to work. An export driven economy is dangerous, as we've seen. We are not becoming poor again. We are simply heading for normality. We have priced ourselves out of the market - any market. For us to have any fighting chance of recovery, we've got to reduce all round. And hate to break to you - but we DO all have to pull together.

dvpower

congo_90 wrote: »

Yes.
You raise a very good point. Could we get skilled labour on basic pay (starter pay for pubic sector). This would keep the unions happy.

While many unemployed workers might go for it, I can't see unions being happy at, say, an electrician being employed at a rate below that specified in the registered agreement.

I could see maybe a newly qualified teacher agreeing to work at a low salary just to get a foot in the door (better than being a newly qualified, unemployed teacher), but the teaching unions would suspect that the governement were just trying to displace well paid workers with low paid workers (and not without reason).

In non unionised sectors of the economy, a subsidy to take on (or not lay off) a worker would probably work. I think there already is a limited scheme like this in place.

congo_90

Ah the fatal flaw in my plan. I actually never thought of that to be honest. Oh well I guess we're gonna need some other system.

jetfiremuck

dan_d wrote: »

Actually yes, Milstream, I agree with you.

What is our problem? Besides moaning that it " wasn't my fault this happened, I didn't buy a house/live beyond my means/get huge bonuses, I'm not prepared to accept that MY pay should be cut" etc, etc, etc.
Are we not over that yet????????It's boring as hell listening to the same old moaning. Let's divide society into neat little boxes will we? - those who bought houses, those who didn't, those who blew their monthly pay packets in BT, those who didn't, those who were builders, those who aren't....those who's fault it is (excluding bankers/politicians/builders/public sector workers earning less than the "average" wage, whatever the hell that is), and those who's fault it isn't (again excluding the previous list)....

Honestly we just need to get over ourselves. House prices have to fall.You can't be a millionaire coz you sell a house. It's known as normality. Public sector wages have to fall. Too much money going out, not enough coming in. Dare I say it, social welfare, child benefit and the minimum wage have to fall. Again, costing too much money. We will be in line with the rest of Europe. Again. Normality.

Effects? Mortgage payments are a massive problem(for, I might point out, me too). There has to be a package/agreement established that allows people leeway on their repayments. The banks played a large part in contributing to this mess, and were bailed out, so it should be expected of them - enforced on them - that a system of some sort is put in place.

The cost of living is high. It is relative to our wages.Wages fall - people can no longer afford goods - cost of living drops.The adjustment period hurts like hell, but it's got to happen.

Most importantly we need to focus on creating sustainable jobs, and making the most of what we have here and getting people back to work. An export driven economy is dangerous, as we've seen. We are not becoming poor again. We are simply heading for normality. We have priced ourselves out of the market - any market. For us to have any fighting chance of recovery, we've got to reduce all round. And hate to break to you - but we DO all have to pull together.

The mortgage ongoing restructure issue is awkward as I see it. If interest rates are at an all time low and principle rates are reduced or mortgages extended from 20 to 30 or even 40 years, how do you square or reclaim the gain later on in order to reimburse that money that you were supported during the adjustment. What now if interest rates increase 1% even in the next 2years What then.

dan_d

Honestly, jetfiremuck, I do not know. I am guessing that is something that needs to be looked at long and hard and a system developed to deal with it. The point I was focusing on more is that all the payments outlined need to drop, however we can't just abandon people to their fates. It's not good enough to slash pay rates etc and then just expect people to deal with the massive mortgages. The banks and governments are as responsible for giving those mortgages out, as the people who took them out are, so they've got to help.

Of all the problems we have with cutting pay, the mortgages are the biggest - rock and hard place. Without reducing ourselves to paupers or anything, over time we will all get used to lesser salaries, and the cost of living will drop. However the mortgages are the one massive issue in all this. I am not going to offer a solution - A) I don't have one and I doubt any one person can come up with a solution that will even approach the problem. It will have to be a collective thing. But what I was trying to say was that it has to be done, along with everything else. It can't just be ignored.

I do accept your point also, however.

recedite

ardmacha wrote: »

Now here's an idea. I work for the government. Why not take one month of my salary and give it to a couple of out of work builders.

Why not just give the builder the money yourself? The only advantage to using vouchers or local currencies is that no tax gets paid. The gov are hardly going to like that one.
If you are one of the highly paid civil servants you might get 2 builders for your salary, if not you can settle for having one at your house working maybe every second week.
The problem for the self employed is that the secure workers have clammed up. Saving their steady money instead of spending it. They are scared of the next budget because they aren't used to facing any risk.
That being the case, heres another idea; Use the Nat. Pension Reserve Fund for the stimulus package.
In the national interest, as they say. Wheres the common good now?

ei.sdraob

Can we just all pull together

when things were good the OP and his like were topmost capitalist

now that the **** hits the fan they are calling for socialism

privatize the profits, socialize the risks

MaceFace

ei.sdraob wrote: »

when things were good the OP and his like were topmost capitalist

now that the **** hits the fan they are calling for socialism

privatize the profits, socialize the risks

Or maybe the OP is sick of the total garbage that is spewed out on these forums by fanboys and the uneducated masses who don't really care about discussing the issues in a calm and sensible manner but just want to point score and discredit just to make themselves appears intelligent.

As a very simple example - I am yet to see a single piece of credit given to any part of the gevernment in this forum (not saying there aren't any, just that I have not seen them). Surely they have done something right?

mrgaa1

going back to the OP - http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1113/education.html this is hardly going to help. And surely trust the teachers - they go for the Friday. another long weekend for them to sit at home and have a wee holiday. Who do they think they are?

Oops: Its not Friday was looking at the wrong month - it is a Tuesday.

ei.sdraob

MaceFace wrote: »

Or maybe the OP is sick of the total garbage that is spewed out on these forums by fanboys and the uneducated masses who don't really care about discussing the issues in a calm and sensible manner but just want to point score and discredit just to make themselves appears intelligent.

As a very simple example - I am yet to see a single piece of credit given to any part of the gevernment in this forum (not saying there aren't any, just that I have not seen them). Surely they have done something right?

if you bother reading my past posts here

you would see the one where i thanked the government for keeping education free/cheap

but ramble on...