LIVERPOOL V BIRMINGHAM MATCH THREAD [Mod Warning Post #1]

Berti Vogts

joe123 wrote: »

So you would of prefered ngog to leave his leg in there to be caught by carsely just to prove it was a penalty? Break your ankle and get us a penalty?

This is what I dont understand with some people Ngog was running in, Carsley slides in with a terrible timed tackle in the box and Ngog jumps over the tackle. It was carsley that caused Ngog to ride the tackle which was nowhere near the ball.

If every player had to let the other player clatter them in a tackle to get the foul then youd have a serious amount of damaged ankles. Carsley stopped Ngogs stride without touching the ball.

And wanting one of your own teams players to get an internal ban for winning a penalty and trying to help the team win the game is disgraceful.

100% correct. N'gog hurdled the tackle. It's not a very difficult concept to understand.

EDIT: Agree with Copacetic, post 570, not a penalty but not as clearcut a dive as some on here would have you believe.

Possibilities

Possibilities wrote: »

N'gog hurdled the tackle.

I like that

SlickRic

Possibilities wrote: »

100% correct. N'gog hurdled the tackle. It's not a very difficult concept to understand.

are you serious?

i'm begging someone to post a gif of the 'hurdle'.

your'e embarrassing yourselves lads.

he took a dive.

joe123

Possibilities wrote: »

100% correct. N'gog hurdled the tackle. It's not a very difficult concept to understand.

Another example was Darren Bents penalty at the weekend. That was a dive, gomez came out but bent was going down before he was even near Gomez. Here Ngog bloody well jumped over the tackle.

Even if you think it was a penalty the lad clearly didnt dive he hurdled the bloody challenge.

eZe^

Johnson is class!

andrewie

joe123 wrote: »

Another example was Darren Bents penalty at the weekend. That was a dive, gomez came out but bent was going down before he was even near Gomez. Here Ngog bloody well jumped over the tackle.

Even if you think it was a penalty the lad clearly didnt dive he hurdled the bloody challenge.

Jumped over? He was going down before he even reached Carsley!

jaykay74

Here you go. someone earlier said a potential leg breaker. hmmm

Mr Alan

eZe^ wrote: »

Johnson is class!

yea, he is so ****ing good. love watching him play.

uberwolf

joe123 wrote: »

Even if you think it was a penalty the lad clearly didnt dive he hurdled the bloody challenge.

For me it's a peno. But he dives to ensure the penalty is given. He prob could have avoided going to ground, and the arms thrown back for emphasis.

K-9

Nemanja91 wrote: »

Well annoyed

Birmingham were robbed by the usual suspects complete disgrace
Its pure liverpools luck

Birminghams defence was outstanding
They deserve the 3 points but id say they will be happy with the 1

PMSL

joe123

jaykay74 wrote: »

Here you go. someone earlier said a potential leg breaker. hmmm

Ok seeing it again.....I admit my mistake.

Still dont ban the lad over it!

EDIT: I did watch it on a crappy stream :P

Slash/ED

uberwolf wrote: »

For me it's a peno. But he dives to ensure the penalty is given. He prob could have avoided going to ground, and the arms thrown back for emphasis.

Well in fairness he's learned from the best on the flying arms thing

K-9

Iago wrote: »

fcuking never touched him

Nice edit.

uberwolf

jaykay74 wrote: »

Here you go. someone earlier said a potential leg breaker. hmmm

actually, that looks suspiciously like he contacts the ball, making my argument a little tenuous.

jaykay74

jaykay74 wrote: »

Here you go. someone earlier said a potential leg breaker. hmmm

It's more like a hop skip and jump.

delta_bravo

jaykay74 wrote: »

Here you go. someone earlier said a potential leg breaker. hmmm

Reminds me of a Jonathan Edwards triple jump. Ridiculous dive

Kess73

joe123 wrote: »

Well im not gunna bother trying to debate why I think it was a penalty as im a bit pissed off with the result more importantly.

When Gerrard and Pires left the trailing leg and won penalties....there I can see why they are in no way penalties. This is different. Fair enough Ngog jumped out of the challenge but Carsley still impeded his run without getting anywhere near the ball.

It comes down to does the player impede the other player and here I think he does. Anyway it makes no difference now. We are 11 points behind chelsea. Out of the premiership, nearly out of the champions league. Nearly all our top players injured or battling injuries....and here we have some so called fans wanting our players getting internal bans. :rolleyes:

Actually I would love to hear why you think it was a penalty.

From what I saw, it looks like the ref thought there was contact from the attempted tackle, but the replays clearly showed there was no contact.

The only other way it could have been a foul was if the referee deemed the attempted tackle as being reckless or dangerous, in which case contact would not have to have been made. But in that case it would have been a straight red for the offending player as there is no leeway if a penalty kick is given for that reason, so seeing as Carsley was not sent off, I think it is safe to assume the penalty was not for that.

So the only reason would have to be the first one I said, but seeing as there was no contact, then it meant N'Gog took a dive, but got lucky as the ref did not see that and took it as contact having been made.

The second rule that I quoted there I did not know about as being a straight red offence in the case of a penalty kick being awarded until I took a look online at the rules of the game and what fouls can cause a penalty.











EDIT: Just saw that you saw the clip again whilst I was typing and said you thought it was no peno.

The_Kew_Tour

jaykay74 wrote: »

Here you go. someone earlier said a potential leg breaker. hmmm

Actually forget him diving in the Olympics he should go for the high jump.

There world record in this guy for that competition. Im impressed.;);)

copacetic

jaykay74 wrote: »

Here you go. someone earlier said a potential leg breaker. hmmm

I don't think it was a peno, but only because ngog jumped out of the way, a player with more experience would have just left his foot on the ground and let Carsely take it out. Then its a stonewall peno. Once you get to the ball first and the defender dives in like that it's a peno 9 times out of 10 unless the forward jumps out of the way to avoid the contact.

There was a similar one at the weekend, I can't remember who though. Villa? just inside edge of area, forward starts to go down long before tackle, defender then clips him, no complaints from anyone.

All ngog did wrong is not do as good a job of winning the peno as most forwards do nowdays. Dragging their trailing legs across the defender is an art than he doesn't have yet.

joe123

Kess73 wrote: »

Actually I would love to hear why you think it was a penalty.

From what I saw, it looks like the ref thought there was contact from the attempted tackle, but the replays clearly showed there was no contact.

The only other way it could have been a foul was if the referee deemed the attempted tackle as being reckless or dangerous, in which case contact would not have to have been made. But in that case it would have been a straight red for the offending player as there is no leeway if a penalty kick is given for that reason, so seeing as Carsley was not sent off, I think it is safe to assume the penalty was not for that.

So the only reason would have to be the first one I said, but seeing as there was no contact, then it meant N'Gog took a dive, but got lucky as the ref did not see that and took it as contact having been made.

The second rule that I quoted there I did not know about as being a straight red offence in the case of a penalty kick being awarded until I took a look online at the rules of the game and what fouls can cause a penalty.

Nope ive changed my mind after seeing the post above showing it again. I had it my mind it was more sinister. I shouldnt be so quick to defend the dive next time before I see it outside of stream quality!

The_Kew_Tour

lol Delta Bravo and rarnes ye got there before me lol

:D

westtip

joe123 wrote: »

Ok seeing it again.....I admit my mistake.

Still dont ban the lad over it!

EDIT: I did watch it on a crappy stream :P

He should be banned the blues were robbed - yes happy to get a point normally at Anfield but I think we would have done LFC a favour by beating you tonight so you could make the decision you have to about Benitez. This just prolongs the agony and Liverpool playing like this will win nothing this year.

Keep right on to the end of the road.

We should have six points from the last two difficult games - I can't see Brum going down playing this quality of football.

joe123

westtip wrote: »

He should be banned the blues were robbed - yes happy to get a point normally at Anfield but I think we would have done LFC a favour by beating you tonight so you could make the decision you have to about Benitez. This just prolongs the agony and Liverpool playing like this will win nothing this year.

Keep right on to the end of the road.

We should have six points from the last two difficult games - I can't see Brum going down playing this quality of football.

I dont want Benitez sacked....im worried now though.

K-9

LZ5by5 wrote: »

All I've got to say about this game is that when Dirk Kuyt is bad, he's really ****ing bad.

YEP, Needs to be dropped.

Headshot

joe123 wrote: »

I dont want Benitez sacked....im worried now though.

ditto

Morzadec

westtip wrote: »

He should be banned the blues were robbed - yes happy to get a point normally at Anfield but I think we would have done LFC a favour by beating you tonight so you could make the decision you have to about Benitez. This just prolongs the agony and Liverpool playing like this will win nothing this year.

Keep right on to the end of the road.

We should have six points from the last two difficult games - I can't see Brum going down playing this quality of football.

Do you not think Liverpool played well tonight?

Lets put aside all the talk of the peno for a minute. A title charge is unrealistic at this stage but if we play like that week in week out I will be very happy and 4th spot (which at the moment is looking far from a certainty) will be sealed comfortably. I thought we played very well tonight and on another night it could've been a very comfortable win.

Crazy game though I've rarely seen a game like that. The whole 2nd 45 was like the last 5 minutes of a match. Credit to Birmingham though they threw everything into hanging on.

For the Rafa doubters, what could he do about tonight? He set up his team well, they were well prepared, won the ball well in midfield and passed it well.

I'm perfectly happy to admit when we played badly but I was happy with the performance tonight. Only Kuyt and Insua had average/poor games imo

dannydiamond

Iang87 wrote: »

for the love of jesus someone justify why rafa is in a job. Now those liverpool fans who are gonna come defend him. Look at our results for the last 3 months. End of argument, sack him if we're that strapped for cash then i'll pay for his plane ticket to spain

You should become a Newcastle fan,you'd fit right in.

Tusky

Blah, depressing stuff.

Positives are few : Johnson was absolutely outstanding and Lucas continues to improve. N'gog gets another goal, I also thought Liverpool actually played really well generally.

Negatives: Too many to list, but I'll try. Kuyt continues his run of poor form, injuries to Yossi and Riera, N'gog dive, 2 points dropped to Birmingham at home...

PHB

You know, looking at it more and more, I'm just not sure what it really is.

Ngog dived, no doubt about it. So I guess he committed a foul.

But Carlsey did not touch the ball at all. So had Ngog not fallen over on purpose, what would have happened?

He might have clipped Carlsey, but I don't think he would have.

He most likely would have lost balance and been unable to do anything with the ball, largely because of Carlsey's body messing up his movement, even though he didn't touch him. I guess it would have been obstruction and an indirect free kick? If that's the rule, then it just incentivised players to go down in those tackles.

Berti Vogts

K-9 wrote: »

YEP, Needs to be dropped.

Opening up a team which has battened down the hatches is not Dirk's strong point and never will be.

~Rebel~

Nemanja91 wrote: »

Well annoyed

Birmingham were robbed by the usual suspects complete disgrace
Its pure liverpools luck

NGog a "usual Suspect"?

And more astonishingly - Liverpool lucky?!? 1 win in 9 is not the kind of luck anyone wants...

event

PHB wrote: »

You know, looking at it more and more, I'm just not sure what it really is.

Ngog dived, no doubt about it. So I guess he committed a foul.

But Carlsey did not touch the ball at all. So had Ngog not fallen over on purpose, what would have happened?

He might have clipped Carlsey, but I don't think he would have.

He most likely would have lost balance and been unable to do anything with the ball, largely because of Carlsey's body messing up his movement, even though he didn't touch him. I guess it would have been obstruction and an indirect free kick? If that's the rule, then it just incentivised players to go down in those tackles.

what ever happened to when a player tackles another player and doesnt get the ball, its a foul.
if the player doesnt touch the other player, its not a foul

its very simple

Mr Alan

PHB wrote: »

You know, looking at it more and more, I'm just not sure what it really is.

Ngog dived, no doubt about it. So I guess he committed a foul.

But Carlsey did not touch the ball at all. So had Ngog not fallen over on purpose, what would have happened?

He might have clipped Carlsey, but I don't think he would have.

He most likely would have lost balance and been unable to do anything with the ball, largely because of Carlsey's body messing up his movement, even though he didn't touch him. I guess it would have been obstruction and an indirect free kick? If that's the rule, then it just incentivised players to go down in those tackles.

copacetic sums it up perfectly imo.

copacetic wrote: »

I don't think it was a peno, but only because ngog jumped out of the way, a player with more experience would have just left his foot on the ground and let Carsely take it out. Then its a stonewall peno. Once you get to the ball first and the defender dives in like that it's a peno 9 times out of 10 unless the forward jumps out of the way to avoid the contact.

There was a similar one at the weekend, I can't remember who though. Villa? just inside edge of area, forward starts to go down long before tackle, defender then clips him, no complaints from anyone.

All ngog did wrong is not do as good a job of winning the peno as most forwards do nowdays. Dragging their trailing legs across the defender is an art than he doesn't have yet.

~Rebel~

Y'know, i missed a lot of the second half since was playing football. Read through the thread and was expecting a big crazy dive, was a bit shocked at the strong reaction when actually saw it there.

He absolutely definately dived, but had he not dived it was a definate pen, carsley slid in in the box and didnt make any contact with the ball, so he doesn't really have any right to feel hard done by. NGog had no reason to dive as the tackle was straight across his path, he could have just as easily continued running rather then jumping and been taken down for a perfectly legitimate free.

I'm with PHB on this one, i dont know what the hell the ruling should be there, cause the only way carsley is in the right is if he makes a clean tackle, which he didn't.

Chardee MacDennis

Boggles wrote: »

19/1. Will I?

i hope you did...

starbelgrade

~Rebel~ wrote: »

I'm with PHB on this one, i dont know what the hell the ruling should be there, cause the only way carsley is in the right is if he makes a clean tackle, which he didn't.

Carlsey didn't make contact with EITHER the player or the ball, so the ruling is, no peno. Simple as.

LuckyLloyd

Villain wrote: »

Love to hear Pool fans defend that dive or talk about bad luck

There is nothing to defend about the dive. Disgraceful. I believe he should be punished retrospectively, and that become the standard for all players that engage in this practice. Moreover, bring in video review and coaches challenges to really stamp this stuff out.

As for bad luck:

once in a career goal
Riera injured
Yossi hamstring (given the season he's having that is just devastating)

It doesn't end.

The-Rigger wrote: »

My god this post is full of nonsense.



Depends on how slow a news day it is.



There are some amount of children posting in this thread.

Yes it was a dive.
It happens every week.
It's a shame, each time.
There should be video analysis.
There isn't.

Now get the fúck over it.

HE'S ON FIRE!!

Aidric wrote: »

Justice would see Birmingham score a winner.

LOLOLOLOLOLOL

Oh come on! Justice? Wow.

daveyboy_1ie wrote: »

Mad game, Birmingham were awesome but still outplayed (if that makes sense).

Makes perfect sense, and is actually a great comment. Birmingham did a lot of things right, and worked their asses off. Fair play to them. But on balance, they were comprehensively outplayed and lucky to take something back to St. Andrews.

ShaneU

Jerome's goal deserved to win that match, shame really.

LuckyLloyd

whatawaster wrote: »

Birmingham had a stunning chance to goals ratio

Look, this wasn't a bad performance. Liverpool dominated, created numerous good chances, did enough to win the game the vast majority of the time.

When things re going wrong, they're going wrong. The percentage of times Birmingham score 2 goals when the game flows like that is minute. Really ****ing minute. What can you do?

I'm annoyed he dived, because it creates an incorrect focal point for those clutching at straws. Liverpool's second half performance merited at least one goal, and the lad turned in a really positive, driving performance. Hopefully he'll learn from the storm that is coming his way.

copacetic

copacetic wrote: »

I don't think it was a peno, but only because ngog jumped out of the way, a player with more experience would have just left his foot on the ground and let Carsely take it out. Then its a stonewall peno. Once you get to the ball first and the defender dives in like that it's a peno 9 times out of 10 unless the forward jumps out of the way to avoid the contact.

There was a similar one at the weekend, I can't remember who though. Villa? just inside edge of area, forward starts to go down long before tackle, defender then clips him, no complaints from anyone.

All ngog did wrong is not do as good a job of winning the peno as most forwards do nowdays. Dragging their trailing legs across the defender is an art than he doesn't have yet.

Sorry to quote my own post, but it wasn't villa, it was Bent winning a peno against spurs I was thinking of. He is in the air long before he drags the foot across Gomes and it's not a massive controversy. Although right enough it didn't affect outcome of game

Mr Alan

Rooney did the exact same thing against Arsenal too.

Simple fact is that journalists & pundits will slate Eduardo & Ngog for it because they are foreign. Whereas Rooney/Bent/Gerrard etc will escape any criticism.

cson

Rooney did the same at Old Trafford against Arsenal, he was falling long before he came into contact with Almunia. Granted the goalkeeper shouldn't put themselves in that position - shouldn't Gomes have been sent off too? - Denying a clear goalscoring opportunity.

On Ngog tonight; As an Arsenal fan it grates me to see the likes of this and Bent at the weekend pretty much swept under the carpet after Eduardo was hung out to dry earlier in the season. It's a disease in the game and really should have UEFA taking a proactive stance regarding it - immediate yellow or retrospective 1 match ban if it goes undetected. And that should have started with Eduardo and then tonight would be a relative non-issue.

On the match tonight; A draw perhaps the deserved result after the way the equaliser was scored but notwithstanding Liverpool were by far the better team but it showed again what is all to evident, when Torres is missing Liverpool lack somebody that is clinical enough to put away those chances. Johnson was very good tonight, very impressed with him.

The next 4 games - Man City, Everton, Blackburn and Arsenal are extremely important for Liverpool. Important that they take 8/9 points minimum or else they could well find themselves in a huge battle for 4th place. That said, it's still relatively early doors yet and a lot can happen.

flahavaj

Carsley disgusted with Ngog anyway: www.football365.com

Birmingham captain Lee Carsley slammed David Ngog for what he described as "an embarrassing case of cheating" after the young striker helped Liverpool earn a point with a controversial penalty.

Ngog scored a wonderful opener in the 2-2 draw at Anfield, but his role in the Reds' second-half equaliser will draw most attention.

The French forward went to ground in the penalty area with Carsley apparently nowhere near making contact with his sliding challenge.

The referee nevertheless awarded a penalty, which substitute Steven Gerrard stroked home to restore parity after goals from Christian Benitez and Cameron Jerome.

Carsley was in no doubt that Ngog was guilty of diving.

He told ESPN: "I was absolutely nowhere near him. It's a joke.

"I knew I didn't touch him and I said to the referee to book me or send me off, it would have made me feel better.

"I'm sure he (Ngog) has got a family, well if I went home having done that I'd be embarrassed.

"You're supposed to be teaching your kids an example and that is just an embarrassing case of cheating.

"But the lad's taken a chance and got his team a point so I'm sure they'll be patting him on the back."

Asked about the incident, Blues boss Alex McLeish added: "This is a shame for the game.

"He conned the referee and got his team a penalty. Peter Walton is a good referee but he got that one wrong. If it hadn't been for the penalty, I thought we'd have gone on to win it."

kryogen

As with alot of things in football, all you look for is consistency

I would like the same people who are making some sort of case for N'Gog here tonight to make a case in defence of the player the next time Drogba,Rooney,Van Persie,Adebayor etc. dive to win a penalty

PHB

I think most of us are in agreement that we'd want to see Ngog or a player on our team trail their foot to ensure the penalty, or else we're utterly opposed to any sort of play-acting in which case fair enough.

But what I'm wondering is, if Ngog attempts to regain his balance and continue on, but is unable to due to Carlsey being in the way, so say the ball goes out of play, what is the foul? Is it obstruction? In which case, that seems kinda silly. Indeed it's rare to even see that these days, since by in large, obstruction isn't given as a foul.

Mr Alan

wasnt there something about that a few years ago with Gerrard against Sheffield Utd, Gerrard lept over the defender, tried to get his shot off but fell & the ref gave a peno, warnock was furious cause the defender didnt make contact but the refs association maintained it was the right call, something to do with intent or something??

joe123

Yeah its definitely a grey area. The challenge is there and it does impede but if no contact is made they say its not a penalty.

Anyways if a big thing is made about this ill be disgusted just the same way I was disgusted the way Eduardo got treated. Gerrard and Rooney have done it before and nothing gets said.

As a Liverpool fan its embarrassing when Gerrard dives gets a penalty and you hear the likes of Redknapp and Andy Gray saying its clever football but when its an Eduardo/Ngog is a disgrace.

Double standards.

hotspur

At least Benitez didn't come out and moan that Carsley should have been sent off too like that doughnut Bruce at the weekend.

Liverpool can now relax a bit, take a few weeks to refresh, and concentrate on the Europa and FA Cup.

noodler

Lee Carsley.... raising Franco-Irish tensions kind of early, isn't he?

It was a penalty, I know what some posters are getting at with the obstruction bit. It is possible not to make contact with a player but obstruct him by just being in the way but we just accept that as a legitimate weapon on the part of the defender tbh.

It was no penalty obviously.

I said before the game that if we couldn't beat Brum at home without Torres then forget about it.

Forget about it.

orourkeda

A team that has to resort to diving for penalties to secure a draw at home to Birmingham City needs to sit down and take a long hard look at itself.