LIVERPOOL V BIRMINGHAM MATCH THREAD [Mod Warning Post #1]

cson

orourkeda wrote: »

A team that has to resort to diving for penalties to secure a draw at home to Birmingham City needs to sit down and take a long hard look at itself.

Sit tight up on that high horse, there's a few more leaps of Bechers left in this season yet.

noodler

orourkeda wrote: »

A team that has to resort to diving for penalties to secure a draw at home to Birmingham City needs to sit down and take a long hard look at itself.

LuckyLloyd

hotspur wrote: »

Liverpool can now relax a bit, take a few weeks to refresh, and concentrate on the Europa and FA Cup.

Yeah, the International break comes at an ideal time really. Space to cool off, and recalibrate psychologically. At the start of the season the goals were:

- Title Challenge
- CL Challenge

Now they're:

- CL qualification
- Europa League Challenge
- A focus on FA Cup games

Sucks a bit for sure, but the players need to accept and get used to the new reality over the next 10 days, and move forward from there with a fresh perspective.

LuckyLloyd

orourkeda wrote: »

A team that has to resort to diving for penalties to secure a draw at home to Birmingham City needs to sit down and take a long hard look at itself.

Oooooooohhhhhh, a strong statement. Love an aul strong statement every now and again. Angers up the blood so it does!

orourkeda

cson wrote: »

Sit tight up on that high horse, there's a few more leaps of Bechers left in this season yet.

Diving is cheating.

Theres little doubt other teams will try it. Doesnt make it right. I was just stating fact rather than peering from any high horse

orourkeda

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Oooooooohhhhhh, a strong statement. Love an aul strong statement every now and again. Angers up the blood so it does!

Call it what you like.

The penalty incident is there for all to see. A clear dive. Liverpool are by no means alone in this and other teams will gain dubious penalties as the season moves on too. It just ruins the whole thing when this happens

cson

orourkeda wrote: »

Diving is cheating.

Theres little doubt other teams will try it. Doesnt make it right. I was just stating fact rather than peering from any high horse

I'm sure Liverpool resorted to have to dive before the match just as they resorted to the fact they could only possible manage a draw against a powerhouse like Birmingham City. :pac:

Bandit12

lol at those posters thinking Liverpool are out of the title race. Long season ahead and tbh 11 points is'nt that big a gap to close. Right behind Rafa and the team who where incrediblely unlucky last night. YNWA

MagicMarker

Bandit12 wrote: »

lol at those posters thinking Liverpool are out of the title race. Long season ahead and tbh 11 points is'nt that big a gap to close. Right behind Rafa and the team who where incrediblely unlucky last night. YNWA

You're right, 11 points isn't too big a gap to close...



.... if you're Man Utd.

uberwolf

PHB wrote: »

But what I'm wondering is, if Ngog attempts to regain his balance and continue on, but is unable to due to Carlsey being in the way, so say the ball goes out of play, what is the foul? Is it obstruction? .

the rules refer to impeding progress. Which may be the category that obstruction falls under, but seems broader to me tbh. This is what I was referring to a couple of pages ago.

eddiehead

Bandit12 wrote: »

lol at those posters thinking Liverpool are out of the title race.

Now realistically I get the sentiment, it is foolish to write off any team in Noverber, but I definitely wouldn't be Loll'ing at those who are, C'mon Bandit, 11 points adrift coupled with some of the performances we've seen lately doesn't spell good news for Liverpool

Mitch Connor

cson wrote: »

Rooney did the same at Old Trafford against Arsenal, he was falling long before he came into contact with Almunia.

Absolute rubbish. "Long before". LOL. LAUGH OUT LOUD.

Blazer

Bandit12 wrote: »

lol at those posters thinking Liverpool are out of the title race. Long season ahead and tbh 11 points is'nt that big a gap to close. Right behind Rafa and the team who where incrediblely unlucky last night. YNWA

muhahahahahaahhhaaaaaaaaaaa....god i'm still laughing...talk about being deluded

Liverpool proved my earlier point in this thread that without Gerrard+Torres they're only a mediocre team and not capable of a top 6 finish.
Any team that only wins 1 in 9 games are not going to win any league..and citing injuries don't cut it. The squad should be able to cope with this much like Chelsea and Man U.
It will be interesting to see what happens after xmas when LFC are in desperate need of funds and need to start flogging players..

raido9

Is ther a gif of the Ngog dive?

Its so blatent, if its posted people might stop trying to justify it somehow



Found it

SlickRic

Bandit12 wrote: »

lol at those posters thinking Liverpool are out of the title race. Long season ahead and tbh 11 points is'nt that big a gap to close. Right behind Rafa and the team who where incrediblely unlucky last night. YNWA

are you mad?

any Liverpool fan still thinking like this is going to be in for a rude awakening.

it's best for our own sanity that we get used the fact we won't win the league this year.

you might still somewhat enjoy the season if you do.

you've 10 days to get used to it

ctrl-alt-delete

copacetic wrote: »

I don't think it was a peno, but only because ngog jumped out of the way, a player with more experience would have just left his foot on the ground and let Carsely take it out.

I don't think it was a penalty either, but after numerous times looking back on it, Ngog's stride would have meant he would have had no contact with Carsley had he continued on without diving, and i would have viewed leaving a foot there in that instance as cheating too.

Again after looking back Carsley's studs i think made a contact with the ball, but as i said this is after numerous views of it. It just goes to show that we need video ref's and we need them now.

We also need retrospective bans enforced, it's a disgusting behaviour and as Carsley stated, i too would be embarassed going home after doing that.

kida

Bandit12 wrote: »

lol at those posters thinking Liverpool are out of the title race. Long season ahead and tbh 11 points is'nt that big a gap to close. Right behind Rafa and the team who where incrediblely unlucky last night. YNWA

yuor right why not let it get to 20 and make it a real challenge

wasn'r expecting to come on here this morning and actually see people say it was not a dive

copacetic

ctrl-alt-delete wrote: »

I don't think it was a penalty either, but after numerous times looking back on it, Ngog's stride would have meant he would have had no contact with Carsley had he continued on without diving, and i would have viewed leaving a foot there in that instance as cheating too.

Again after looking back Carsley's studs i think made a contact with the ball, but as i said this is after numerous views of it. It just goes to show that we need video ref's and we need them now.

We also need retrospective bans enforced, it's a disgusting behaviour and as Carsley stated, i too would be embarassed going home after doing that.

I don't believe Carsley got a touch, the ball doesn't deviate in the slightest. Carsley has little complaint in my opinion, he dived in, missed the ball and it was pure luck he missed ngog. it shouldn't have been a peno, but I've seen much worse ones given most weeks.

Boggles

copacetic wrote: »

I don't believe Carsley got a touch, the ball doesn't deviate in the slightest. Carsley has little complaint in my opinion, he dived in, missed the ball and it was pure luck he missed ngog. it shouldn't have been a peno, but I've seen much worse ones given most weeks.

He dived get over it. Stop trying to dilute it or make Carsley out to be the bad one in this.

The Muppet

copacetic wrote: »

I don't believe Carsley got a touch, the ball doesn't deviate in the slightest. Carsley has little complaint in my opinion, he dived in, missed the ball and it was pure luck he missed ngog. it shouldn't have been a peno, but I've seen much worse ones given most weeks.

Could we have a few examples please.

ntlbell

copacetic wrote: »

I don't believe Carsley got a touch, the ball doesn't deviate in the slightest. Carsley has little complaint in my opinion, he dived in, missed the ball and it was pure luck he missed ngog. it shouldn't have been a peno, but I've seen much worse ones given most weeks.

The fact that a ref made a mistake in some other game you watched has no baring on last night.

it was a blatant dive, so on one hand your saying it wasn't a peno, and on the other was because a ref in some other game at some other time made a mistake?

LuckyLloyd

I will agree with some of the posters in this thread that the issue of awarding penalty kicks should be more nuanced than a simple "there was contact / there was no contact" analysis. The television media never goes beyond the simple question of contact when assessing these types of situations, and it is to their detriment.

However, in this particular instance, our boy has taken off like a Falcon before Carsley's lunging figure is in the equation. Simulation.

SlickRic

i'm begging liverpool fans, please,

it was a dive.

if you try to justify it, it just gives other fans' reason to believe we're delusional. because if you're trying to rationalise that, you are. i don't even care if there's been worse. i don't want one of our players having to resort to it.

it's a horrible part of the game, and the more people not only get away with it, but profit from it, the worse it's going to get.

Mitch Connor

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I will agree with some of the posters in this thread that the issue of awarding penalty kicks should be more nuanced than a simple "there was contact / there was no contact" analysis. The television media never goes beyond the simple question of contact when assessing these types of situations, and it is to their detriment.

However, in this particular instance, our boy has taken off like a Falcon before Carsley's lunging figure is in the equation. Simulation.

On your first point:

I remember the Fowler/Seaman penalty years ago. Fowler jumped over seaman, making no contact, and lost the ball as he didn't land on the run. Penalty was given despite no contact and Fowler saying it was not a penalty.

However, it was said by officials after the game that contact is not required. If a player is forced to take avoiding action due to a tackle from an opponent that does not win the ball, and the attacking player loses the ball as a result of this, it is apparently still a foul.

On your second point, I agree, Ngog took a dive, plain and simple. But, as said above, fouls are seemingly not as simple contact/no contact.

jank

The usual "sure its a grey area this diving...". You cannot justify it. Look ffs he dived..no more two ways about it.

thegen

Look it was a dive.
Leave it at that.

Teams will all get dubious penalties where simulation is percieved to have taken place in the duration of any given season. This has happened in the past and will in the future. If you all take off your rose tinted glasses you should all agree, if not so be it.

~Rebel~

I dont think anyones saying it wasn't a dive, it absolutely definately was.

And in this case it shouldn't have been a penalty regardless as NGog actively tried to cheat.

What is kind of interesting though is how the scenario would have played out had he jumped over carsley tackle to genuinely try and continue the move but for whatever reason the move ended there due to the impedement. As others have said above, there are numerous cases of fouls being legitimate even with no contact. All a bit off topic though i guess as thats not what happened.

raido9

~Rebel~ wrote: »

I dont think anyones saying it wasn't a dive, it absolutely definately was.

And in this case it shouldn't have been a penalty regardless as NGog actively tried to cheat.

What is kind of interesting though is how the scenario would have played out had he jumped over carsley tackle to genuinely try and continue the move but for whatever reason the move ended there due to the impedement. As others have said above, there are numerous cases of fouls being legitimate even with no contact. All a bit off topic though i guess as thats not what happened.

Agreed, that can definitely be the case, but it wasn't in this case. NGog dived because he was running out of space and would have lost possession

RasTa

Rafa and N'gog.

I was talking to him and he said maybe it wasn't a penalty

At least he admitted it.

evil_seed

has anyone a transcript or clip of rafa's pre-match interview on espn? very interesting points made in it

leninbenjamin

uberwolf wrote: »

actually, that looks suspiciously like he contacts the ball, making my argument a little tenuous.

I thought so too...

PHB wrote: »

But Carlsey did not touch the ball at all. So had Ngog not fallen over on purpose, what would have happened?

There's one angle I saw last night looking from directly behind Carsley. Now because his body is in the way you can't actually if contact was made or not but i did notice that the ball starts to bobble up immediately after the tackle, whereas before it it was flat on the ground. Not that it makes a difference, but i thought it was interesting...

budgemook

NGog should have ran in to Carsely which would have made it a definite penalty. He did dive but I argue he was obstructed so should have been awarded an indirect free kick.

Carsley didn't get a touch on the ball.

Bandit12

Can't believe people are still taking about this one. It was'nt a peno. N'Gog dived. It happens in every game in every league in the world. You would swear it was the first time a pro footbaler dived in the history of the game.

Bandit12

Berkut wrote: »

muhahahahahaahhhaaaaaaaaaaa....god i'm still laughing...talk about being deluded

Liverpool proved my earlier point in this thread that without Gerrard+Torres they're only a mediocre team and not capable of a top 6 finish.
Any team that only wins 1 in 9 games are not going to win any league..and citing injuries don't cut it. The squad should be able to cope with this much like Chelsea and Man U.
It will be interesting to see what happens after xmas when LFC are in desperate need of funds and need to start flogging players..

I agree with the last part that with the current owners it's possible that the top players will be sold.

budgemook

Bandit12 wrote: »

Can't believe people are still taking about this one. It was'nt a peno. N'Gog dived. It happens in every game in every league in the world. You would swear it was the first time a pro footbaler dived in the history of the game.

You're probably right. If N'Gog was smarter it would have been a peno. I think it should have been an indirect free kick though what Mitch Connor says about the Fowler peno a few posts back is interesting.

Mr Alan

fair play to Rafa/Ngog.

flahavaj

Does Rafa's comment mean Fowler is much sounder than Gerrard?;)

Boggles

Mr Alan wrote: »

fair play to Rafa/Ngog.

For what?

~Rebel~

Boggles wrote: »

For what?

admitting it wasn't a pen

flahavaj

Lets not hand out the Nobel prizes quite yet lads, its not like they owned up to his diving or anything.

SlickRic

flahavaj wrote: »

Lets not hand out the Nobel prizes quite yet lads, its not like they owned up to his diving or anything.

to be fair, Al only said 'fair play'.

which it was.

it's the common party line when managers talk about dodgy penalties their teams win. you're saying it was a dive, without having to villify your own player in the media.

raido9

RAFA wrote:

I haven't seen the replay but maybe it wasn't a penalty. I still think that we deserved to win anyway,

Possibly it wasn't a penalty but we have had a lot of situations during the year and one for us I think is not the worst.

.

Mr Alan

i wouldnt call it common party line from managers, i dont know in my life if i've ever heard Ferguson/Wenger say something like that.

Boggles

Mr Alan wrote: »

i wouldnt call it common party line from managers, i dont know in my life if i've ever heard Ferguson/Wenger say something like that.

Yeah but there is no need to commend him for it.

Mr Alan

Mr Alan wrote: »

i wouldnt call it common party line from managers, i dont know in my life if i've ever heard Ferguson/Wenger say something like that.

never a truer word typed.

Mr Alan

its 100% to be commended tbh.

Handsome Bob

Boggles wrote: »

Yeah but there is no need to commend him for it.

You wouldn't commend Fergie I suppose if the words came from his mouth?

The Muppet

~Rebel~ wrote: »

admitting it wasn't a pen

Did he?

Fair play for what he did say, but he did not admit it wasn't a pen

Mitch Connor

Mr Alan wrote: »

i wouldnt call it common party line from managers, i dont know in my life if i've ever heard Ferguson/Wenger say something like that.

Fergie said Rooney dived vs Villareal. Rooney admited it too, and apologized to his opponent and to Fergie.

Did Ngog/Rafa appologise? NOPE. They admitted is was 'maybe' not a pen (so not actually saying he dived, or that it wasn't a pen), but Rafa went on to say, basically, that liverpool deserved it and that if it was a dive, oh well, it worked out well for them.

Nothing really to say 'fair play' about imo.

SlickRic

The Muppet wrote: »

Did he?

Fair play for what he did say, but he did not admit it wasn't a pen

he said something along the lines of 'it probably wasn't a penalty but we deserved to win the game so it was the least we deserved'.

that is very much a paraphrase though.