HAS ANYBODY GOT A LICENCE FOR A CENTER FIRE PISTOL

ivanthehunter

Sparks wrote: »

I'm just pointing out that you're thinking you can defeat a law. You don't. You change a law. It's a mite more complicated than you might think, it's not a 'rah, rah, rah!' sort of thing, it's long and tedious and boring and thankless and not remotely interesting after the first year, and frankly, noone in our community really gives a darn about the process till it's over and waaaaaay too late to do anything about it, at which point they'll suggest we do twenty things we might have been able to try if they'd all volunteered to help five years earlier.
.

WHAT!

Sparks wrote: »

I'm not being defeatist, .

Well its not exactly inspirational is it?

ivanthehunter

ivanthehunter wrote: »

WHAT!

Sparks is correct, and once a law is signed in, its very hard to have it removed. Amendments are realistically the only option open but they are also very difficult.

Well its not exactly inspirational is it?

I can honestly say that there are few people on the forum who have given as much time and energy to promoting target shooting as Sparks has.
This is a case of 'been there, done that.

Cass

Its not being defeatist its being pragmatic.

Gentlemen, ladies,
I do not require that you insult me.
I wish only to help.
If by that is which you wish to silence.
Then I will allow invective to succeed.
Perhaps truth and learing has become
the very deficit
has allowed our @mutual@ foes to win.#

I retire from the fray

I don't mean this as an insult but because an answer didn't satisfy or please him he gets offended and quits. Good starting attitude.

rowa

i didn't mean anything snide by my "don't hold your breath remark" , but if you're waiting to hear something from the nargc etc they have been very quiet , the nasrpc is the only body doing anything constructive by setting up the fund to fight this in the courts in my opinion ,

its not like this cropped up a few days ago this has been going on over a year now , the ahern ban etc .

rrpc

SIG wrote: »

Gentlemen, ladies,
I do not require that you insult me.
I wish only to help.
If by that is which you wish to silence.
Then I will allow invective to succeed.
Perhaps truth and learing has become
the very deficit
has allowed our @mutual@ foes to win.#

I retire from the fray -

I didn't see an insult in anything posted here

I saw fact, realism and some blunt advice as well as a touch of sarcasm (deserved IMO).

No insult though. If you give up so easily it's not very inspiring.

dCorbus

Seems to me that a lot of people don't know the difference between a Realist and a Defeatist?:D
Sparks is right IMHO!

The only insult / v strange comment was about "someone touching someone elses inners" (to paraphrase an earlier post) - hmmmm, I'm still thinking about that one - and I do really hope that's not Sparks' inners that are being touched, coz that's one mental image I can do without!:rolleyes::D:D

Unfortunately, the Law is the Law is the Law - unless one wants to and has the means to go down the various legal options open to challenge this.

I wish there was far less talk from the armchair revolutionaries about "fighting", "challenging", "opposing" our "mutual foes" and a desire to "see more fight in our communiuty of gun users" (I'm a sport shooter, a firearms enthusiast, etc., but not really comfortable with the term "gun user" for some reason) - Them's fighting words!:D

As a citizen of this democratic and constitutional Republic of Ireland, the somewhat subversive and disparaging comments being made by some posters regarding our State and Nation disgust me. Last time I checked you all had a vote, individual access to your public representatives, and various rights and responsibilities under the Constitution and Laws of this Country. I for one am still proud to call myself Irish and to call Ireland my home.

Yes, it's not perfect here (Far from it sometimes - but where is?) But, please, as Citizens (to use that word brought up earlier by others) be proactive and responsible. Use the democratic and legal systems as is your right and your duty - But please, less of the constant maligning and denigration of our country. Now - that's insulting!

Dvs

dCorbus wrote: »

Seems to me that a lot of people don't know the difference between a Realist and a Defeatist?:D
Sparks is right IMHO!

The only insult / v strange comment was about "someone touching someone elses inners" (to paraphrase an earlier post) - hmmmm, I'm still thinking about that one - and I do really hope that's not Sparks' inners that are being touched, coz that's one mental image I can do without!:rolleyes::D:D

Unfortunately, the Law is the Law is the Law - unless one wants to and has the means to go down the various legal options open to challenge this.

I wish there was far less talk from the armchair revolutionaries about "fighting", "challenging", "opposing" our "mutual foes" and a desire to "see more fight in our communiuty of gun users" (I'm a sport shooter, a firearms enthusiast, etc., but not really comfortable with the term "gun user" for some reason) - Them's fighting words!:D

As a citizen of this democratic and constitutional Republic of Ireland, the somewhat subversive and disparaging comments being made by some posters regarding our State and Nation disgust me. Last time I checked you all had a vote, individual access to your public representatives, and various rights and responsibilities under the Constitution and Laws of this Country. I for one am still proud to call myself Irish and to call Ireland my home.

Yes, it's not perfect here (Far from it sometimes - but where is?) But, please, as Citizens (to use that word brought up earlier by others) be proactive and responsible. Use the democratic and legal systems as is your right and your duty - But please, less of the constant maligning and denigration of my country. Now - that's insulting!

Hello dCorbus,
Perhaps you might take the time to read the legislation that the Minister for Justice brought in the last sitting of the Dail the miscellaneous provisions bill 2009, which is now part of the Criminal justice act specifically the changes to the firearms act, then go and read the transcripts of the Dail and Seanad debates, consider how the firearms act is being applied now by the Garda and then come back and tell us, if you still believe that we live in a democratic and constitutional Republic of Ireland.

Using the democratic and legal systems as is your right and your duty, only means something, when the act of making use of your individual access to your public representatives actually means they do something other than regurgitate the Ministers line, while telling you they shall keep working on your behalf.

Or when using the legal system and winning your case within the law, is met with something other than the Minister ammending the law to get his own way to fix a legal anomaly.

Legal challenge taken against the state
result number one state wins = due process of the law
result number two state loses = legal anomaly, amend law to achieve result number one.

Democracy and legal protection for the people!

To be fair some members of the opposition parties and even some of the parliamentary Fianna fail party did speak up on our behalf during the debates, however when the party whip was used to force deputies to vote with the Minister for Justice the democratic process ceased to exist, it was merely smoke and mirrors, an empty farce without meaning.

Saying the state or the government is acting in an undemocratic manner is not an attack, on Ireland as a Nation, being Irish as a citizen, or even an attack on the constitution of Ireland, those in government would like you to believe that it is one and the same but it is not.

Being told that you live in a democratic country, is no a guarantee that you do, being told you have rights as a citizen is not the same as being able to exercise them in a real and effective manner, witnessing the Ministers use of bully boy tactics in the Dail at the end of the last sitting, to get his own way with the miscellaneous provisions bill 2009, refusing all amendments and forcing Fianna fail deputies that expressed serious concerns about the bill and supported its been amended to protect legitimate sports shooters, to vote in his support by using the party whip, and thereby circumventing the constitutional protection that legislation be freely debated, amended, and voted on in the houses of the oireachtas.

Were it not for the fact that we are constantly told that we live in a democratic and constitutional Republic of Ireland, we might become confused and believe that we live in a dictatorship, where using our rights is only acceptable within the boundaries set by the dictatorship and the constitution is only an old document.

Dvs.

Sparks

Y'know DvS, I might not have voted for the party that's now in government, but at least I had a vote. The problem was, everyone else voted Fianna Fail with theirs.

It might well suck, but it's still democratic. It's just proving Churchill right.

Now if we'd all voted for someone else, we'd have someone else in there and possibly not the same Minister. Mind you, my inner cynic is saying that any TD would do what our current Minister is doing, because as a people, we don't ever look past the end of the current week, if even that. We don't bother to pay attention to the Dail - look at how many people have shown up here going "GOOD GRIEF EVERYONE, THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT CHANGING THE LAW TO BAN PISTOLS! (ps. when did they let us have pistols again?)".

If you want to find the real, root cause of the muck we're now ensconced in, look to your siblings, your parents, your cousins and your friends and ponder how they vote and why and for whom and with what agenda and what degree of forethought. There is one person we can point to as a focal point, yes (the Minister), but the real problem isn't one person, it's about four million of them...

dCorbus

Dvs,

Thanks for that very articulate and reasoned response. That's a level of debate we should all hope can be maintained.

I am not sure I'd be best qualified to comment on the details of various legislation - and in this I do accede to your obviously greater knowledge and experience on the subject. That said, it was not my intention with my post to get into a political debate - only to point out that I do find it insulting for my country to be denigrated by a good number of posters here and elsewhere.

Your level of response just goes to show what can be said / written, but done in a reasoned and non-insulting way. I wish more posters took your approach frankly.

I am in no way disputing that laws have been enacted by the Oireachtas which make no sense, are unjust, and / or possibly undemocratic in their nature and intent. This applies to many areas of life, not just for shooters. Actually, when I think about it, the list of stupid laws would be far too long to expand on here!:D

Yes, I also agree with you that the Party Whip system makes a mockery of democracy.

Saying the state or the government is acting in an undemocratic manner is not an attack, on Ireland as a Nation, being Irish as a citizen, or even an attack on the constitution of Ireland, those in government would like you to believe that it is one and the same but it is not.

No it's not - you are right. However, some of the sentiments expressed on here recently do border on the inflammatory and subversive IMHO.

I will uphold at all turns the rights of citizens to question their government and to hold them to account. If you are opposed to the current government, then by all means oppose them and endevour to remove them from their positions in the Dail.

Can I ask some questions?:

Has any member of the shooting community ever stood for election to support and improve shooting in Ireland, either as an Independent or as a member of a party?

Have you yourself or any of your shooting colleagues put themselves forward for election in advancement of your ideals?

Has a political party / movement ever been formed to advance these ideals?

Have these ideals been lobbied for in a coherent and rational way in order to push this into the public consciousness and make it an election issue (albeit a minor one in the scale of things)?

If the answer to any of these is no - then I have to say that the democratic process hasn't really been utilised fully nor has its potential run its course. I know you are not calling for revolution - this is clear from your post, which expresses a deep mistrust and disappointment with the current government of our country. A deep mistrust and disappointment which I also share.

Oh, and be to fair to those who have done and still continue to have to survive in dictatorships, no amount of persuasion / argument will ever persuade me that we live in a dictatorship here in Ireland. Maybe if we did and I was the Great & Glorious Supreme Leader, we might not need to be having this discussion - But then again, if I was the Great & Glorious Supreme Leader, we probably wouldn't be allowed to!:D

Thanks, dC.

happyjack

Good reading everyone's different opinions, mine is very simple, from experience in my own life I believe we now live in a fascist police state.

Here's the simple proof;
Whenever a country becomes fascist it starts with the police of that country ignoring the rule of law and deciding they know better, at that stage a country goes down the toilet.

I've asked Gardai which is more important; following orders, or following the law of the land? Most tell me following orders, if they didn't they'd get moved or in trouble with their Super's etc.

There you have it, how much more dangerous a system can you think of, than where a police-force decides to introduce laws that haven't been put to the Dail, (Gun safes) then have the cheek to fight it all the way to the supreme court.

After my HC case was settled I still had to threaten my local Super with getting a bench warrant against him as he still ignored the High Court. What other country would you find the Police showing such disrespect for the rule of law, if any one else had broken a court order their ass would be in jail the same day.

No it's Fascism, do your research, this is the first sign of a country going bad. "I'm only following orders", a sense of knowing better than democratic process and inventing laws that don't exist.

Too many shooters have told me down through the years, "oh don't piss the Guards off, stay quiet, don't ask for what you want or need", sad truth is most shooters are scared of the Gardai and are prepared to take any crap and abuse for a quite life. I believe this is the root cause of our problem, the sheep, let someone else do the fighting and stay quiet. That's what has created this monster. Fear, and you know what, you get what you deserve in this life, no more no less. As for me I'm a born terrier, win lose or draw I'll fight for what I believe is my democratic rights as an EU citizen, but I've learnt not to bother my backside doing it for the sheep out there any more.

I was exposed to a bill of €30,000 plus euro for over a year with my own case and not one bah bah sheep called around to see what he could do to help, I was just lucky the NARGC paid for my case, and for that I wont forget the eaten bread, without the NARGC we would have lost all our guns years ago, The NARGC took all the early cases and most target clubs failed to swap over to them, we forget the eaten bread very fast in Ireland. So why should the NARGC defend target shooters when target shooters turned their backs on them?

So my advice is speak up, let them know you think what they are doing is fascism, stop pandering to corruption, make it tough for them and vote pro shooter come the next election.

Sparks

Fascism?

Okay, seriously folks, you can't just go about handing out your username and password to Joe Duffy or Glenn Beck. Seriously.

Dvs

Sparks wrote: »

Y'know DvS, I might not have voted for the party that's now in government, but at least I had a vote. The problem was, everyone else voted Fianna Fail with theirs.

It might well suck, but it's still democratic. It's just proving Churchill right.

The entire generalization that having a vote equals democracy idea is false, elections in recent times in Zimbabwe and Iraq illustrate that pretty well.

Now I now am not saying that intimadation and voting fraud are happening in Irish elections, but the idea that having a vote equals democracy is not true.

Irish politicians regardsless of party have little or no idea what the lives of the rest of irish society are like, the exist in the bubble of political life,
yes they might make the right noises now and again, but they view themselves as a breed apart.

Politicians are only concerned about two things getting elected and what they can do to make sure they get elected next time.

Once elected politicians no longer need the people,
and claim to have a mandate, to do what they believe is best for the country and the people, The fact that they have know idea what the are doing, does not seem to bother them in the least, and they dont want to know what the people that will be affected by their actions and and those that have actual knowledge on the issues think is the best course of action, if indeed any action is required.

Most politicians do not know anything about the matters they debate in the Dail this is especially true of Government Ministers.

If you don't believe me pick an issue that you absolutely nothing about that is coming before the Dail, anything, then spend an hour on google learning about the issue, then read the transcript of the debates on the issue that take place in the Dail... a warning once you swallow the red pill the world of politics will never look the same again.

Or you can swallow the blue pill and go back to believing in democracy as you know it, believing that Irish politicians understand the issues before them and will sort it all out for us, as they know what is best for the country and the people.


Dvs.

dCorbus

Thanks Happyjack.

I am truly disturbed to hear about your previous plight. I don't know the facts of your case, but you sound genuinely agrieved!

But to say we live in a Fascist state is pushing the bounds of credulity a wee bit;).
I believe you are doing all right-thinking fascists a disservice by comparing them to our current set of politicians, of all hues!:D:D:rolleyes:

I don't see any trains running on time here.
I do believe we had a massive public service day-of-action (day-of-shopping) yesterday.
I do believe we are debating this issue in an open and public forum.
I do believe the powers of the legislature, executive, and judiciary are still separate in this stage.

(No hold on - here's the Stasi to kick down my door! Ooops, sorry forgot the Stasi weren't fascists were they? They're the lads on the other side:D)

Anyway I digress.;)

Whilst I am not a political theorist, I would think that one of the first actual signs of a fascist regime is that the police and judiciary actually enforce the rule of law unthinkingly and with no recourse to the common good and mores of society.

Your point above seems to suggest that the GS are not following the law. Surely this does not prove the existance of a proto-fascist state, merely the breakdown in communication and training?

Have you complained to the ombudspersonage?:D

Sparks

DvS, no offence, but I think I might possibly have seen as much of the Dail and Seanad as yourself. Some might hint that there's a slim chance I've seen more, but pffft, what would they know?

They're still not fascist. Corrupt, lazy, ignorant, yes - but that's what we vote for, each and every time, because we are corrupt, lazy and ignorant ourselves.

shannonpowerlab

Sparks wrote: »

Fascism?

Okay, seriously folks, you can't just go about handing out your username and password to Joe Duffy or Glenn Beck. Seriously.

Please excuse my ignorance...But I heard one of the names you have mentioned...Who are they?

dCorbus

Dvs, thanks again.

But you still haven't answered my questions?:D

Has any member of the shooting community ever stood for election to support and improve shooting in Ireland, either as an Independent or as a member of a party?

Have you yourself or any of your shooting colleagues put themselves forward for election in advancement of your ideals?

Has a political party / movement ever been formed to advance these ideals?

Have these ideals been lobbied for in a coherent and rational way in order to push this into the public consciousness and make it an election issue (albeit a minor one in the scale of things)?

So, can NO be answered to any of these?

And again, I have to reiterate that if so, the opportunities for democracy have not been exhausted!:D

Thanks dC

rrpc

To be honest, unless they were an independent, there'd be no point. The whip system would kill any independence before it saw the light of day.

And obviously we haven't had any firearms advocates elected as independents. Tony Gregory anyone?

rowa

dCorbus wrote: »

Dvs, thanks again.

But you still haven't answered my questions?:D



So, can NO be answered to any of these?

And again, I have to reiterate that if so, the opportunities for democracy have not been exhausted!:D

Thanks dC

some t.d.'s have been shooters e.g michael mcdowell but they soon put there career in front of the shooting .

dCorbus

So I'm guessing that's a couple of "no's" then!:D
So let's keep on giving this old democracy lark a chance, then!:rolleyes:

See not all the options have been exhausted and not all avenues gone down.

So now, who wants to volunteer to

a) Stand for election to support and improve shooting in Ireland, either as an Independent or as a member of a party?

b) Put themselves forward for election in advancement of your ideals?

c) Form a political party / movement to advance these ideals?

d) Have these ideals been lobbied for in a coherent and rational way in order to push this into the public consciousness and make it an election issue?

Any takers?:D

Dvs

Sparks wrote: »

DvS, no offence, but I think I might possibly have seen as much of the Dail and Seanad as yourself. Some might hint that there's a slim chance I've seen more, but pffft, what would they know?

They're still not fascist. Corrupt, lazy, ignorant, yes - but that's what we vote for, each and every time, because we are corrupt, lazy and ignorant ourselves.

Sparks,
I have to say I am not offended, but I must confess I am somewhat amused that you would say some might hint that theres a slim chance you have seen more Dail and Seanad debates.

I was not suggesting to you that you pick an issue that you absolutely nothing about that is coming before the Dail, anything, then spend an hour on google learning about the issue, then read the transcript of the debates on the issue that take place in the Dail.

I only quoted you regarding your having a vote equals democracy generalization, the rest was directed to other forum members that may believe that politicians understand what they debate in the Dail.

I made no mention of Fascism.

But in keeping with the spirit of you last post
Some might hint that my dads bigger than your dad, but pffft, what would they know?


Dvs.

happyjack

dCorbus wrote: »

Thanks Happyjack.

I am truly disturbed to hear about your previous plight. I don't know the facts of your case, but you sound genuinely agrieved!

But to say we live in a Fascist state is pushing the bounds of credulity a wee bit;).
I believe you are doing all right-thinking fascists a disservice by comparing them to our current set of politicians, of all hues!:D:D:rolleyes:

I don't see any trains running on time here.
I do believe we had a massive public service day-of-action (day-of-shopping) yesterday.
I do believe we are debating this issue in an open and public forum.
I do believe the powers of the legislature, executive, and judiciary are still separate in this stage.

(No hold on - here's the Stasi to kick down my door! Ooops, sorry forgot the Stasi weren't fascists were they? They're the lads on the other side:D)

Anyway I digress.;)

Whilst I am not a political theorist, I would think that one of the first actual signs of a fascist regime is that the police and judiciary actually enforce the rule of law unthinkingly and with no recourse to the common good and mores of society.

Your point above seems to suggest that the GS are not following the law. Surely this does not prove the existance of a proto-fascist state, merely the breakdown in communication and training?

Have you complained to the ombudspersonage?:D

Yes I did, and they got a Garda Chief Superintendent to investigate another Garda Super. I was told they would investage, but after a year they changed their mind and got the Gardai to investigate the Gardai.

Courts do not need to go bad to create a fascist state, just the police need to have a direct line to the powers that be, by passing courts and government.

I speak from experience, wasted time, money and at one stage they even came to where I work and pushed me about and threatened me.

All because my chosen sport is shooting. Shooting is the first sport to be clamped down on by facists, each and every time.

I need to just sit on the side lines for awhile, so I'd be grateful of a break,
don't want to live angrey all the time, it's wasted energy.

HJ

tonysopprano

dCorbus, as this is a shooting forum and you claim to represent shooters ( or at least want to), maybe it would be to your advantage to investigate further.

Take the "Dunne vs Donoghue" Supreme Court judgement first of all.
Read this finding and then ask anyone who has received a written refusal, from all corners of the country, to post it with the personal details deleted.

Compare the postings, and then tell us what you see, as to whether the findings are consistant or not with the judgement.

Then re-read your earlier statements and tell us your findings.

On another note, please tell us how a public service day-of-action became " a day of shopping" as quoted by you. Is it because RTE ( a government run media and other similar media outlets) or the Irish Independant (who had it as it's lead before any reports of the strike) reported it to deflect from the issues at hand or maybe you manned ALL border crossings yesterday, doing a questionaire as to what people worked at, or maybe it was parents, whose children were not at school for whatever reason or maybe ( as I see every week ) because we are being ripped off by government and big business, as many people as can, head north to save some money.

sfakiaman

Since this thread seems to have gone all political, may I suggest people look at the reality of the political system. Every party has a local membership which votes on affairs at constituency level. Only those ar**d enough to attend meetings get to vote. Of those few some will be delegated to vote at constituency level for the person (persons) who will be the candidate for Dail Eireann. If you want to make a change for the better join the party of your choice and start making waves.

Some here have been stating that the current administration is fascist, this is, in my opinion, to dignify them with the belief that they have an actual dogma beyond re-election.

The time for bitching is long past and I keep hearing the words of a Russian poet saying:

Graze on ye peaceful sheep and cattle
Freedoms call will never grip
Or stir you into honours battle
For you the knife the shearers clip
Your heritage the heardsmans rattle
The goad, the prod the drovers whip

rrpc

tonysopprano wrote: »

dCorbus, as this is a shooting forum and you claim to represent shooters ( or at least want to), maybe it would be to your advantage to investigate further.

Take the "Dunne vs Donoghue" Supreme Court judgement first of all.
Read this finding and then ask anyone who has received a written refusal, from all corners of the country, to post it with the personal details deleted.

Compare the postings, and then tell us what you see, as to whether the findings are consistant or not with the judgement.

I don't follow you tony, the findings are the judgment the way you put it above, so of course they'll be the same. Where do the refusal letters come into the equation?

And I don't see the relevance of Dunne v Donohue to any of the refusals to date.

On another note, please tell us how a public service day-of-action became " a day of shopping" as quoted by you. Is it because RTE ( a government run media and other similar media outlets) or the Irish Independant (who had it as it's lead before any reports of the strike) reported it to deflect from the issues at hand

RTE is also known as 'the Civil Service news'. They very seldom say anything but rah, rah, rah for any civil servant. Must have been pretty bad for them to have reported on it.

But we're going waaaay off topic now, so lets keep it to the point here. We're talking about centre fire pistol refusals, not the underemployed.

dCorbus

Tonysoprano, thanks for that.:D


Firstly:

dCorbus, as this is a shooting forum and you claim to represent shooters ( or at least want to),

I know this is a shooting forum;). Nowhere have I ever claimed to represent shooters. Nowhere have I said I wished to. So sorry about that - but you seem to have mistaken my intentions.

Take the "Dunne vs Donoghue" Supreme Court judgement first of all.
Read this finding and then ask anyone who has received a written refusal, from all corners of the country, to post it with the personal details deleted.

Compare the postings, and then tell us what you see, as to whether the findings are consistant or not with the judgement.

Sorry, but I'm not a lawyer so not qualified to comment on the legal issues arising from a supreme court ruling. Can you explain this further? Thanks.

Then re-read your earlier statements and tell us your findings

Where in any of my earlier statements have I ever referred to the supreme court, its rulings, licence applications, and / or refusals?

please tell us how a public service day-of-action became " a day of shopping" as quoted by you

That's my half-facetious term for what happened yesterday. Meant to be taken with a pinch of salt, Tonysoprano!:D Didn't see much "action" yesterday though.

Not going to get into a private sector versus public sector debate here, because this is not the place. and it has very little, if anything, to do with shooting: I only mentioned that in passing to show how Ireland was not a "fascist" state (Not my term), because if it was, the day-of-action / strike-day would not have been allowed to proceed under a truly fascist regime. That's the point I was hoping to make - Not debate the pro's and con's of the current economic situation.

Don't read the Indo by the way, never have, never will. Sorry if that doesn't fit into your image of me.

And again, I have to reiterate:

Nowhere have I ever claimed to represent shooters. Nowhere have I said I wished to. (What I have said is that I would like to help shooters and how we are seen by the wider world - But if you don't want the likes of me to help, fine!):o

You seem to be mistaking me for someone else?:D

dCorbus

Can we please get back on topic?:D
Leave our varied political viewpoints at the door and talk about guns and shooting and other cool stuff?:rolleyes::D

SIG

Evening all. I put some post on yesterday and was some what chastised for various reasons, not least for opting out.
Well since then I have found the site to find the standard for BS 7558, (guncabinets ) which is causing me some problems. also see S.I. 307 0f 2009.

http://police.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/operational-policing/firearms-handbook.pdf?view=Binary

I have spent 2.5 hours with my FO who I know to see, me being a culchie. He was out with the notebook recording information which he had no idea of concerning firearms. However this does not look good as there is a lack of understanding and some personal belief's in the operation of this act.

After nearly 40 years of running a business ( and shooting ) I believe that we are de-facto a police state. I have plenty examples of same.

Ireland has become a country of extremes - take our sport / hobby. We had somewhat lax and simple laws governing us. ( they worked reasonably well for 50 years + ) now we have a raft of draconian rules designed to force gun owners to cease, be refused use of their previously licensed guns.
Look at what happened to the poitin men !!
Also I have never failed to vote since I turned 18, and I dont believe that when you vote you should snoze till the next time.

I hear that there is a case in Cork, where a Judge has reserved a decision on an appeal by a gun owner against a refusal, and this may be due for a decision in the next week. Has anyone information on this.

rrpc

SIG wrote: »

I hear that there is a case in Cork, where a Judge has reserved a decision on an appeal by a gun owner against a refusal, and this may be due for a decision in the next week. Has anyone information on this.

We should refrain from discussing this until the Judge has come to a decision. I believe that will be next Monday.

dCorbus

they worked reasonably well for 50 years +

Eh?
I'm not old enough to remember - but didn't the government of the time nick everyone's firearms back in 1972 / 1973 and put them into Cold Storage?

BS 7558, (guncabinets ) which is causing me some problems

Why is BS7558 causing you problems? Are you attempting to construct your own gunsafe?;) If not, you can buy a BS7558 compliant safe from nearly all the gun dealers around.

What's with the link to the UK Home Office?:D Someone correct me if I'm wrong (No worries there methinks!:)), but AFAIK the document you link to has no status in Ireland - Are you in N. Ireland, coz then it probably does?

we are de-facto a police state

Please, not this again!?:D:D:rolleyes:

Look at what happened to the poitin men

Ah, now.....what?:D

I dont believe that when you vote you should snoze till the next time

100% agree with you there!:)

I hear that there is a case in Cork, where a Judge has reserved a decision on an appeal by a gun owner against a refusal, and this may be due for a decision in the next week. Has anyone information on this

There's another thread somewhere on that very topic: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055742152

I think that's the one. Hope that helps!

dCorbus

In fairness to the O/P

HAS ANYBODY GOT A LICENCE FOR A CENTER FIRE PISTOL
hi all
its looks like a back door ban for center fire pistols can any body say other wise?????????

To get back on topic: Has anybody got a licence for a C/F pistol?

milkerman

rrpc wrote: »

RTE is also known as 'the Civil Service news'. They very seldom say anything but rah, rah, rah for any civil servant. Must have been pretty bad for them to have reported on it.

Well, I have heard RTE described in various ways but never that one before - you must have coined it yourself.

A few years ago I did a media handling course for my employer. The course was given by a well-known broadcaster. I got an insight into how the 'media' works. They figure that a good row or a list of inflammatory questions, or maybe even a bunch of half truths stop the listener/viewer/reader from changing channel or newspaper. Does the treatment of the evil Glocks seem a bit clearer now? You can say the same for Public Service pay, banking, economics etc. It keeps you listening but is not guaranteed to give a balanced view.

About 6 months ago when we were all decyphering the meaning behind the new legislation I pointed out that our interpretation did not count - the Gardai's interpretation would be what matters. I am sorry to admit to being right. What can we do about it? Now is the time to work on the opposition parties to get their commitment on providing an unambiguous framework for licensing firearms. Formal, written commitment - signed in tripicate if you want. Afterall, they will form the next government in 2 years or less. It is such a shame to think that a shooter would have to risk financial ruin just to stay within the sport - for those of you with the balls & the cash to go the legal route? Best of luck, I hope you get your way.

Finally, RRPC. I find your comment about the underemployed offensive. I am married to one of the 'underemployed', she minds a young man with spina bifida - she washes him, shaves him, helps him pee or take a dump and all the rest and guess what? This public servant in so-called secure employment is out of a job come January 2nd. I know this is may be off topic but the current feeding frenzy on Civil Servants reminds me of the recent feeding frenzy on 9mm pistols - illinformed.
Rant over.

SIG

31 years ago I made 3 gun cabinets in 3/8 sheet steel, with seperate inner locked compartments when no one had a gun safe. believe it or now they meet the UK BS except in one small area which I will weld to them . Bolted them to ground in 3 different locations to store the 4 guns. Never a problem, even invited Garda members to view.
Common sense used to be a mark of reason when dealing with issues. Now you have to assert yourself.

Can you see half the Farmers, under siege on many fronts, going to get a Photo, Doctors ref, Independent referees etc to licence the single barrel vermin gun ?

I have a pal , a retired doctor who does not have a GP as he has never needed one in a long healthy life - how do you or the act deal with that one?. -Common sense !!! where are thou ?

SIG

A thought. Why cant we organise a single National body to Represent the sports shooting body of persons ?

Am I a deluded dreamer ? as well.

dCorbus

Ah, if only......;)

milkerman

dCorbus wrote: »

In fairness to the O/P



To get back on topic: Has anybody got a licence for a C/F pistol?

Short answer - YES. I know of 2x 9mm pistols and one no. .38 revolver in my club. I couldnt see any particular reason why they got good news from their Chief Super and the other lads didn't.

dCorbus

I couldnt see any particular reason why they got good news from their Chief Super and the other lads didn't

OK, this is really gonna sound like a dumbass and exceptionally naive question:

Surely to god there must have been some reason why some lads got licenses and some didn't, particularly from the same CS?:o

SIG

My Understanding from people in higher places was that there would be re-licencing of C/F to those who held licences prior to the ministers veto.

What is happening is a complete turnaround on what was supposed to be a resolution for existing lence holders.

Do I detect that there is a united ( but not fully, for very good reasons ) front to refuse those that were to be treated under the so called Grandfather rule ?

milkerman

dCorbus wrote: »

OK, this is really gonna sound like a dumbass and exceptionally naive question:

Surely to god there must have been some reason why some lads got licenses and some didn't, particularly from the same CS?:o

The lucky guys in question had an amicable discussion with the CS. THey explained the extent of their investment in the sport, showed records of competitions etc. They are good speakers both of them and think fast while talking slow.
One of the unlucky guys shares the same CS, I dont think his meeting was quite so amicable.
The rest of the guys have other CS to deal with and dont know what they have done so far.

rrpc

milkerman wrote: »

Well, I have heard RTE described in various ways but never that one before - you must have coined it yourself.

No, heard it from a number of people who watch these things for a living.

About 6 months ago when we were all decyphering the meaning behind the new legislation I pointed out that our interpretation did not count - the Gardai's interpretation would be what matters. I am sorry to admit to being right.

Not quite. There's the DC appeals to come before we get a clearer picture.

What can we do about it? Now is the time to work on the opposition parties to get their commitment on providing an unambiguous framework for licensing firearms. Formal, written commitment - signed in tripicate if you want. Afterall, they will form the next government in 2 years or less. It is such a shame to think that a shooter would have to risk financial ruin just to stay within the sport - for those of you with the balls & the cash to go the legal route? Best of luck, I hope you get your way.

You might recall that FG had an amendment to the bill that required an annual review of its workings. That will be interesting.

Finally, RRPC. I find your comment about the underemployed offensive. I am married to one of the 'underemployed', she minds a young man with spina bifida - she washes him, shaves him, helps him pee or take a dump and all the rest and guess what? This public servant in so-called secure employment is out of a job come January 2nd. I know this is may be off topic but the current feeding frenzy on Civil Servants reminds me of the recent feeding frenzy on 9mm pistols - illinformed.
Rant over.

I apologise if my remark offended you. I have quite a few friends who are civil servants themselves and they characterise the service as being in three equal parts: One third work at least as hard as anyone in the private sector, one third do the work they're given and no more and one third do nothing at all.

tonysopprano

dCorbus wrote: »

Tonysoprano, thanks for that.:D


Firstly:



I know this is a shooting forum;). Nowhere have I ever claimed to represent shooters. Nowhere have I said I wished to. So sorry about that - but you seem to have mistaken my intentions.

So all these polls and ideas to be a PRO are false or only for your own ego



Sorry, but I'm not a lawyer so not qualified to comment on the legal issues arising from a supreme court ruling. Can you explain this further? Thanks.

"Dunne vs Donoghue" stated that no blanket bans could be implemented and every case should be taken on it's own merits.

Check out the letters received by me and at least 8 other shooters from different Chief Superintendents.



Where in any of my earlier statements have I ever referred to the supreme court, its rulings, licence applications, and / or refusals?

"Whilst I am not a political theorist, I would think that one of the first actual signs of a fascist regime is that the police and judiciary actually enforce the rule of law unthinkingly and with no recourse to the common good and mores of society.
Your quote.

What does it mean when the authorities fail to enforce, or rather snub the findings of the Judiciary ?



That's my half-facetious term for what happened yesterday. Meant to be taken with a pinch of salt, Tonysoprano!:D Didn't see much "action" yesterday though.

Well someone who has aspirations or the like of yourself should take himself away from "half-facetious term"s or statements "meant to be taken with a pinch of salt"

Not going to get into a private sector versus public sector debate here, because this is not the place. and it has very little, if anything, to do with shooting: I only mentioned that in passing to show how Ireland was not a "fascist" state (Not my term), because if it was, the day-of-action / strike-day would not have been allowed to proceed under a truly fascist regime. That's the point I was hoping to make - Not debate the pro's and con's of the current economic situation.

Check out WIKIPEDIA for Facism,

Fascism, pronounced /ˈfæʃɪzəm/, is a political ideology that seeks to combine radical and authoritariannationalism[1][2][3][4] with a corporatist economic system,[5] and which is usually considered to be on the far right of the traditional left-right political spectrum.[6][7][8][9][10]
Fascists advocate the creation of a single-party state,[11] with the belief that the majority is unsuited to govern itself through democracy and by reaffirming the benefits of inequality.[12]

Don't read the Indo by the way, never have, never will. Sorry if that doesn't fit into your image of me.

And again, I have to reiterate:

Nowhere have I ever claimed to represent shooters. Nowhere have I said I wished to. (What I have said is that I would like to help shooters and how we are seen by the wider world - But if you don't want the likes of me to help, fine!):o

See below.

You seem to be mistaking me for someone else?:D

"I would like to help shooters and how we are seen by the wider world "

Your quote.

Maybe I misunderstand, but to me, your statement above translates as,

Public Relations

• (used with a sing. verb) The art or science of establishing and promoting a favorable relationship with the public.
• (used with a pl. verb) The methods and activities employed to establish and promote a favorable relationship with the public.
• (used with a sing. or pl. verb) The degree of success obtained in achieving a favorable relationship with the public.

rrpc

Tony, Dunne v Donohue found that the Commissioner through the Superintendents could not impose blanket preconditions on the issue of a licence. Any Superintendent could impose any preconditions he wanted to so long as they weren't 'blanket preconditions' meaning he'd considered each application on its merits.

Section 29 of the 2009 act has taken care of that. Now the Minister or Commissioner can set any conditions they want.

So far we have only anecdotal evidence that Chief Superintendents are operating blanket bans. Until we see it in writing, it's hearsay and not worth the paper it's written on.

Finally, your swipe at the judiciary is ill timed and undeserved. For the most part, we have had the balance of judgments in the High Court and it remains to be seen how the District Court fares.

SIG

Good Morn all,

For an example of common sense - FIREARMS SECURITY HANDBOOK 2005, U.K. Home office & Police & British Shooting sports council.
Have a look

Its full of technical & legal detail, but tempered with that rare IRISH TRAIT - COMMON SENSE.

'Ta tir na og ar cul an ti, tir allaing trine ceile'

SIG

well RRPC,
I can tell you that my DG will not even allow you to speak on this issue - your gone before you start.
I do not have any criminal or inditable convictions. No DD either. A few civil issues over the years.
However I expect to be there and in the four goldmines as well !

tonysopprano

rrpc wrote: »

Tony, Dunne v Donohue found that the Commissioner through the Superintendents could not impose blanket preconditions on the issue of a licence. Any Superintendent could impose any preconditions he wanted to so long as they weren't 'blanket preconditions' meaning he'd considered each application on its merits.

So all C/S coming together and agreeing ( forget exact phrase, but like getaway driver in bank robbery where someone is shot, driver gets charged with shooting), that unless you have this/or that (as agreed by them and undefined and unavailable to Joe Public), does not constitute a blanket ban?

Section 29 of the 2009 act has taken care of that. Now the Minister or Commissioner can set any conditions they want.

No he/they cannot. To quote section 29
"may issue guidelines"
Still challangeable in court but must be available in the public domain.

So far we have only anecdotal evidence that Chief Superintendents are operating blanket bans. Until we see it in writing, it's hearsay and not worth the paper it's written on.

Please check refusals.( Cannot let the cat out of the bag, but if you are not in the know, then you are NOT IN THE KNOW"

Finally, your swipe at the judiciary is ill timed and undeserved. For the most part, we have had the balance of judgments in the High Court and it remains to be seen how the District Court fares.

It is not us against them, we only got what we we're entitled to by law

happyjack

No news of any centerfire pistols issued in Kerry, phoned around and most shooters tell me they have been left in libo, license expired and no news from Gardai.

My local FD told me he took in 48 different types of firearms in just one month, from folks fed up with the new licensing system. It's a shocking amount for a small area.

Any news from around the country about guns being handed in over new licensing system?

rowa

happyjack wrote: »

No news of any centerfire pistols issued in Kerry, phoned around and most shooters tell me they have been left in libo, license expired and no news from Gardai.

My local FD told me he took in 48 different types of firearms in just one month, from folks fed up with the new licensing system. It's a shocking amount for a small area.

Any news from around the country about guns being handed in over new licensing system?

i have had no news either about my centrefire , i think it may be a case of "wait and see " on behalf of the gardai , they are waiting to see if they are going to wind up in court and what those courts are going to say .

i have been contacted in regards to my .22 revolver , i had been told that it was unrestricted by the fpu , but the super decided it was a restricted firearm as it wasn't on the list and sent it on to the chief super , he now is looking for the cylinder to be blocked , so as only 5 rounds can be loaded , has common sense flow off completely ? a single extra round of .22 ammunition and a gun is more dangerous.

rrpc

tonysopprano wrote: »

So all C/S coming together and agreeing ( forget exact phrase, but like getaway driver in bank robbery where someone is shot, driver gets charged with shooting), that unless you have this/or that (as agreed by them and undefined and unavailable to Joe Public), does not constitute a blanket ban?

Conspiring, and if that were the case then we'd be getting the exact same results from every division which we're not.

No he/they cannot. To quote section 29
"may issue guidelines"
Still challangeable in court but must be available in the public domain.

Why did you stop reading?

(2) In particular, the Commissioner may issue such guidelines in relation to applications for firearm certificates and authorisations under this Act and to the conditions which may be attached to those certificates and authorisations.

Please check refusals.( Cannot let the cat out of the bag, but if you are not in the know, then you are NOT IN THE KNOW"

FFS, what's with the nudge, nudge, wink, wink stuff? I've seen plenty of refusals and they're not all the same. And I've not seen one refusal that says "I'm refusing you on the grounds that I'm refusing all centre fire pistols in my division"

It is not us against them, we only got what we we're entitled to by law

Eh??

rrpc

SIG wrote: »

well RRPC,
I can tell you that my DG will not even allow you to speak on this issue - your gone before you start.
I do not have any criminal or inditable convictions. No DD either. A few civil issues over the years.
However I expect to be there and in the four goldmines as well !

What's a DG?

knockon

rrpc wrote: »

What's a DG?

And whats a DD?

Grizzly 45

DD ....a vey big piece of ladies underwear apperel???;)