HAS ANYBODY GOT A LICENCE FOR A CENTER FIRE PISTOL

happyjack

Thanks Sparks, sad thing is I had to go to the HC to get my kit in the first place, I'm not rushing into any thing, but the way I'm thinking at the present, well, I think I'd be better off going for a judicial review again. It looks like I have clear cut grounds on the advice I've got so far. Last one took 3.5 years and you would'nt believe the side line ****e inbetween, dont want to get into that here. I really enjoy my chosen sport, its really upsetting to have a policeman tell me which sport I can take part in and my past record stands for nothing. To his mind any target pistol shooting outside of the Olympics doesent exist.

In my opinion you can judge how free a country really is in the amount that the government and police show trust in its people. 45 million people have been killed in state run genocides since 1915, in every case private ownership of guns disappeared first. I dont trust countries where only the powers that be have firearms. I'm not saying that the US is a perfect model, no but how about this, I used to have a very good friend from Switerland, he told me that he stored a general purpose machine gun in his house with a range of 1.8k, he told me that everyone in his country stored military firearms at home, why, because everyone in his country did military service, something which is very common around the world. I dont think gun ownership is the answer to everything, but it is a good general indicator on how well your country runs and how it trusts its folks.

Target shooters in general are some of the most responible people in any country, not always, but mostly so. It has to go with the sport for safety sake. I think the Gardai are missing a great chance to step up to the plate and help show the world that Ireland has come away from a dark and sad past and things have improved.

To think that Irish men and women in Northern Ireland can and always were able to enjoy fullbore target shooting, and yet we cant manage it down here.

Well thats my two pence worth.

HJ

SIG

Gentlemen, Ladies, we are in a real meltdown position now. The Garda AKA Commissioner and Authority AKA the Minister have succeeded in arriving at a point where somewhere between 50% and 70% of previous licenced firearms will be removed from the system. If you think this is scare tactic, then await the outcome. Farmers are dropping their Guns, urban licence holders are forced to un burden themselves, old shooters have not the energy, persons with no land are dis enfranchised, precious old shotguns and rifles are not going to be re-licenced as their owners are tired and unable to deal with the new laws. Lots of old licence holders find this new regime beyond their ability to deal with. Q.E.D. Therefore right wing desire to remove the bulk of licenced firearms has been achieved. Well if we had thought that Michael McDowell S.C. as Minister was over zealous in the Criminal law act of 2006, it was a more balanced set of rules for the firearms arena. I await some information / help from either the NARGC or the other National shooting bodies to show direction where the average/ collector afficanido/ game shooter & gun person can see some restoration of a system balanced between the need for control and enjoyment of gun shooting.

rowa

SIG wrote: »

Gentlemen, Ladies, we are in a real meltdown position now. The Garda AKA Commissioner and Authority AKA the Minister have succeeded in arriving at a point where somewhere between 50% and 70% of previous licenced firearms will be removed from the system. If you think this is scare tactic, then await the outcome. Farmers are dropping their Guns, urban licence holders are forced to un burden themselves, old shooters have not the energy, persons with no land are dis enfranchised, precious old shotguns and rifles are not going to be re-licenced as their owners are tired and unable to deal with the new laws. Lots of old licence holders find this new regime beyond their ability to deal with. Q.E.D. Therefore right wing desire to remove the bulk of licenced firearms has been achieved. Well if we had thought that Michael McDowell S.C. as Minister was over zealous in the Criminal law act of 2006, it was a more balanced set of rules for the firearms arena. I await some information / help from either the NARGC or the other National shooting bodies to show direction where the average/ collector afficanido/ game shooter & gun person can see some restoration of a system balanced between the need for control and enjoyment of gun shooting.

don't hold your breath .

SIG

Rowa
What Breath should I hold. I believe that the numbers of licenced firearms will be well restricted. can you prove different ?

Sparks

SIG, he was agreeing with you but didn't think the NARGC were going to solve the problem...

SIG

Gentlemen, ladies, What my post was made for , was to try and get a real movement for the whole shooting community to have a chance to get a united front to move our sport / enjoyment / love / intrest / and involvment in all things game and country for our mutual benefit. We need to have a united front to fight the serious reactionary law that has been fosted on us.

SIG

Sparks, you are a sage on this forum, what can we do. lets get a bit millitant for our loves and sports. Plain talking and action - Man.

Sparks

I don't really think of myself as a sage.
A thyme, sometimes, a basil every so often, but never a sage.

As to generating a united front with rhetoric... that'd be attempt #57 to do so by my estimate, on this forum alone. It's a bad idea. It's not getting better with practice.

SIG

Sparks, I was at the meeting in abbeyleix re Restricted licences. I would have been delighted to leave that meeting with the understanding that shooting brethern in Ireland were going forward to do battle with the stupid law that is the current governing regime. I believe that the shooting / gun fraternity need to be united now or we will never recover. I am a member of 3 insurance / compensation funds. Solidaridity not division will succeed.

Sparks

Oh, and just for the record, generally when you try to pin our hassles on a specific ideology, we pin it on the left-wing pinko commie hippies. Not the right wing reactionaries, 'cos that's who we're meant to be.

Most of our issues spread from the political expediency pursued by successive Ministers - frankly, I think you're attributing to ideology what's far more readily explained by laziness, political greed, and outright lack of any degree of interest in us by successive Ministers looking to try to keep their Merc's. But hey, I'm a cynic.

Sparks

SIG wrote: »

Sparks, I was at the meeting in abbeyleix re Restricted licences.

Which meeting? There's been more than one in Abbeyleix on that topic, organised by different groups.

SIG

ouch, I am sorry to pique your spirit. I aslo cook, 38 years of catering. Anyway I ONLY want our community to succeed in defeating the extreme mad law that has now been enacted. We are badly served by it.

Sparks

Yeah, you can't defeat a law SIG. You can lobby to have it changed or repealed; you can suggest amendments to it; you can challange it's constitutionality in the courts; you can even run for a TD's seat, win and vote against the bill introducing it; but you don't "defeat" law, law just is. You might as well try to defeat the sky.

SIG

Oh boy am I touching your inners. I Will ask if it is possible for this forum to move from touchy bits from one to one, to find a way to get a real movement for our mutual aim, to get some better dealing from the powers that be, so that we can have a fair. reasonable, and better licencing of sporting firearms.

Sparks

Ask away.
Could you do it in better phrased english so more people than just yourself understand what you're asking?

rrpc

SIG wrote: »

Gentlemen, ladies, What my post was made for , was to try and get a real movement for the whole shooting community to have a chance to get a united front to move our sport / enjoyment / love / intrest / and involvment in all things game and country for our mutual benefit. We need to have a united front to fight the serious reactionary law that has been fosted on us.

Funny enough, I've not seen too much law in any of the refusals dished out so far.

Plenty of rhetoric, some emotion, a dash of FUD and a soupcon of ignorance.

Oops, I forgot the bucketfuls of insults :P

But not much law (except the stuff that was wrong) :rolleyes:

SIG

Sparks, please dont do that type of thing - defeatest - we cant change things- Maybe some day we may meet, and you will be convinced of the right to challange.I have never walked away from a challange. I believe that as citizens we must do all that we can to assert out rights. That is the basis of our system. I would like to see more fight in our communiuty of gun users - that is why i started this . I am mad busy otherwise like most of us trying to survire.

rrpc

SIG wrote: »

Sparks, please dont do that type of thing - defeatest - we cant change things- Maybe some day we may meet, and you will be convinced of the right to challange.I have never walked away from a challange. I believe that as citizens we must do all that we can to assert out rights. That is the basis of our system. I would like to see more fight in our communiuty of gun users - that is why i started this . I am mad busy otherwise like most of us trying to survire.

Rights :rolleyes:

We have the right when refused to take it to the District Court and challenge it. Everyone refused should do that at the very least.

That's about the only right we have.

Sparks

SIG wrote: »

Sparks, please dont do that type of thing - defeatest

I'm not being defeatist, I'm just pointing out that you're thinking you can defeat a law. You don't. You change a law. It's a mite more complicated than you might think, it's not a 'rah, rah, rah!' sort of thing, it's long and tedious and boring and thankless and not remotely interesting after the first year, and frankly, noone in our community really gives a darn about the process till it's over and waaaaaay too late to do anything about it, at which point they'll suggest we do twenty things we might have been able to try if they'd all volunteered to help five years earlier.

So here's a suggestion - skip the empty rhetoric and actually do something. Yourself. Find out who's working on this and volunteer; and if there's noone, start into it yourself.

I would like to see more fight in our communiuty of gun users - that is why i started this . I am mad busy otherwise like most of us trying to survire.

Ah, I see. You'd like to see something done, but you're too busy, so the rest of us should do it for you. Well, that's honest at least. It's still the 2% rule though.

SIG

Gentlemen, ladies,
I do not require that you insult me.
I wish only to help.
If by that is which you wish to silence.
Then I will allow invective to succeed.
Perhaps truth and learing has become
the very deficit
has allowed our @mutual@ foes to win.#

I retire from the fray -

ivanthehunter

Sparks wrote: »

I'm just pointing out that you're thinking you can defeat a law. You don't. You change a law. It's a mite more complicated than you might think, it's not a 'rah, rah, rah!' sort of thing, it's long and tedious and boring and thankless and not remotely interesting after the first year, and frankly, noone in our community really gives a darn about the process till it's over and waaaaaay too late to do anything about it, at which point they'll suggest we do twenty things we might have been able to try if they'd all volunteered to help five years earlier.
.

WHAT!

Sparks wrote: »

I'm not being defeatist, .

Well its not exactly inspirational is it?

ivanthehunter

ivanthehunter wrote: »

WHAT!

Sparks is correct, and once a law is signed in, its very hard to have it removed. Amendments are realistically the only option open but they are also very difficult.

Well its not exactly inspirational is it?

I can honestly say that there are few people on the forum who have given as much time and energy to promoting target shooting as Sparks has.
This is a case of 'been there, done that.

Cass

Its not being defeatist its being pragmatic.

Gentlemen, ladies,
I do not require that you insult me.
I wish only to help.
If by that is which you wish to silence.
Then I will allow invective to succeed.
Perhaps truth and learing has become
the very deficit
has allowed our @mutual@ foes to win.#

I retire from the fray

I don't mean this as an insult but because an answer didn't satisfy or please him he gets offended and quits. Good starting attitude.

rowa

i didn't mean anything snide by my "don't hold your breath remark" , but if you're waiting to hear something from the nargc etc they have been very quiet , the nasrpc is the only body doing anything constructive by setting up the fund to fight this in the courts in my opinion ,

its not like this cropped up a few days ago this has been going on over a year now , the ahern ban etc .

rrpc

SIG wrote: »

Gentlemen, ladies,
I do not require that you insult me.
I wish only to help.
If by that is which you wish to silence.
Then I will allow invective to succeed.
Perhaps truth and learing has become
the very deficit
has allowed our @mutual@ foes to win.#

I retire from the fray -

I didn't see an insult in anything posted here

I saw fact, realism and some blunt advice as well as a touch of sarcasm (deserved IMO).

No insult though. If you give up so easily it's not very inspiring.

dCorbus

Seems to me that a lot of people don't know the difference between a Realist and a Defeatist?:D
Sparks is right IMHO!

The only insult / v strange comment was about "someone touching someone elses inners" (to paraphrase an earlier post) - hmmmm, I'm still thinking about that one - and I do really hope that's not Sparks' inners that are being touched, coz that's one mental image I can do without!:rolleyes::D:D

Unfortunately, the Law is the Law is the Law - unless one wants to and has the means to go down the various legal options open to challenge this.

I wish there was far less talk from the armchair revolutionaries about "fighting", "challenging", "opposing" our "mutual foes" and a desire to "see more fight in our communiuty of gun users" (I'm a sport shooter, a firearms enthusiast, etc., but not really comfortable with the term "gun user" for some reason) - Them's fighting words!:D

As a citizen of this democratic and constitutional Republic of Ireland, the somewhat subversive and disparaging comments being made by some posters regarding our State and Nation disgust me. Last time I checked you all had a vote, individual access to your public representatives, and various rights and responsibilities under the Constitution and Laws of this Country. I for one am still proud to call myself Irish and to call Ireland my home.

Yes, it's not perfect here (Far from it sometimes - but where is?) But, please, as Citizens (to use that word brought up earlier by others) be proactive and responsible. Use the democratic and legal systems as is your right and your duty - But please, less of the constant maligning and denigration of our country. Now - that's insulting!

Dvs

dCorbus wrote: »

Seems to me that a lot of people don't know the difference between a Realist and a Defeatist?:D
Sparks is right IMHO!

The only insult / v strange comment was about "someone touching someone elses inners" (to paraphrase an earlier post) - hmmmm, I'm still thinking about that one - and I do really hope that's not Sparks' inners that are being touched, coz that's one mental image I can do without!:rolleyes::D:D

Unfortunately, the Law is the Law is the Law - unless one wants to and has the means to go down the various legal options open to challenge this.

I wish there was far less talk from the armchair revolutionaries about "fighting", "challenging", "opposing" our "mutual foes" and a desire to "see more fight in our communiuty of gun users" (I'm a sport shooter, a firearms enthusiast, etc., but not really comfortable with the term "gun user" for some reason) - Them's fighting words!:D

As a citizen of this democratic and constitutional Republic of Ireland, the somewhat subversive and disparaging comments being made by some posters regarding our State and Nation disgust me. Last time I checked you all had a vote, individual access to your public representatives, and various rights and responsibilities under the Constitution and Laws of this Country. I for one am still proud to call myself Irish and to call Ireland my home.

Yes, it's not perfect here (Far from it sometimes - but where is?) But, please, as Citizens (to use that word brought up earlier by others) be proactive and responsible. Use the democratic and legal systems as is your right and your duty - But please, less of the constant maligning and denigration of my country. Now - that's insulting!

Hello dCorbus,
Perhaps you might take the time to read the legislation that the Minister for Justice brought in the last sitting of the Dail the miscellaneous provisions bill 2009, which is now part of the Criminal justice act specifically the changes to the firearms act, then go and read the transcripts of the Dail and Seanad debates, consider how the firearms act is being applied now by the Garda and then come back and tell us, if you still believe that we live in a democratic and constitutional Republic of Ireland.

Using the democratic and legal systems as is your right and your duty, only means something, when the act of making use of your individual access to your public representatives actually means they do something other than regurgitate the Ministers line, while telling you they shall keep working on your behalf.

Or when using the legal system and winning your case within the law, is met with something other than the Minister ammending the law to get his own way to fix a legal anomaly.

Legal challenge taken against the state
result number one state wins = due process of the law
result number two state loses = legal anomaly, amend law to achieve result number one.

Democracy and legal protection for the people!

To be fair some members of the opposition parties and even some of the parliamentary Fianna fail party did speak up on our behalf during the debates, however when the party whip was used to force deputies to vote with the Minister for Justice the democratic process ceased to exist, it was merely smoke and mirrors, an empty farce without meaning.

Saying the state or the government is acting in an undemocratic manner is not an attack, on Ireland as a Nation, being Irish as a citizen, or even an attack on the constitution of Ireland, those in government would like you to believe that it is one and the same but it is not.

Being told that you live in a democratic country, is no a guarantee that you do, being told you have rights as a citizen is not the same as being able to exercise them in a real and effective manner, witnessing the Ministers use of bully boy tactics in the Dail at the end of the last sitting, to get his own way with the miscellaneous provisions bill 2009, refusing all amendments and forcing Fianna fail deputies that expressed serious concerns about the bill and supported its been amended to protect legitimate sports shooters, to vote in his support by using the party whip, and thereby circumventing the constitutional protection that legislation be freely debated, amended, and voted on in the houses of the oireachtas.

Were it not for the fact that we are constantly told that we live in a democratic and constitutional Republic of Ireland, we might become confused and believe that we live in a dictatorship, where using our rights is only acceptable within the boundaries set by the dictatorship and the constitution is only an old document.

Dvs.

Sparks

Y'know DvS, I might not have voted for the party that's now in government, but at least I had a vote. The problem was, everyone else voted Fianna Fail with theirs.

It might well suck, but it's still democratic. It's just proving Churchill right.

Now if we'd all voted for someone else, we'd have someone else in there and possibly not the same Minister. Mind you, my inner cynic is saying that any TD would do what our current Minister is doing, because as a people, we don't ever look past the end of the current week, if even that. We don't bother to pay attention to the Dail - look at how many people have shown up here going "GOOD GRIEF EVERYONE, THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT CHANGING THE LAW TO BAN PISTOLS! (ps. when did they let us have pistols again?)".

If you want to find the real, root cause of the muck we're now ensconced in, look to your siblings, your parents, your cousins and your friends and ponder how they vote and why and for whom and with what agenda and what degree of forethought. There is one person we can point to as a focal point, yes (the Minister), but the real problem isn't one person, it's about four million of them...

dCorbus

Dvs,

Thanks for that very articulate and reasoned response. That's a level of debate we should all hope can be maintained.

I am not sure I'd be best qualified to comment on the details of various legislation - and in this I do accede to your obviously greater knowledge and experience on the subject. That said, it was not my intention with my post to get into a political debate - only to point out that I do find it insulting for my country to be denigrated by a good number of posters here and elsewhere.

Your level of response just goes to show what can be said / written, but done in a reasoned and non-insulting way. I wish more posters took your approach frankly.

I am in no way disputing that laws have been enacted by the Oireachtas which make no sense, are unjust, and / or possibly undemocratic in their nature and intent. This applies to many areas of life, not just for shooters. Actually, when I think about it, the list of stupid laws would be far too long to expand on here!:D

Yes, I also agree with you that the Party Whip system makes a mockery of democracy.

Saying the state or the government is acting in an undemocratic manner is not an attack, on Ireland as a Nation, being Irish as a citizen, or even an attack on the constitution of Ireland, those in government would like you to believe that it is one and the same but it is not.

No it's not - you are right. However, some of the sentiments expressed on here recently do border on the inflammatory and subversive IMHO.

I will uphold at all turns the rights of citizens to question their government and to hold them to account. If you are opposed to the current government, then by all means oppose them and endevour to remove them from their positions in the Dail.

Can I ask some questions?:

Has any member of the shooting community ever stood for election to support and improve shooting in Ireland, either as an Independent or as a member of a party?

Have you yourself or any of your shooting colleagues put themselves forward for election in advancement of your ideals?

Has a political party / movement ever been formed to advance these ideals?

Have these ideals been lobbied for in a coherent and rational way in order to push this into the public consciousness and make it an election issue (albeit a minor one in the scale of things)?

If the answer to any of these is no - then I have to say that the democratic process hasn't really been utilised fully nor has its potential run its course. I know you are not calling for revolution - this is clear from your post, which expresses a deep mistrust and disappointment with the current government of our country. A deep mistrust and disappointment which I also share.

Oh, and be to fair to those who have done and still continue to have to survive in dictatorships, no amount of persuasion / argument will ever persuade me that we live in a dictatorship here in Ireland. Maybe if we did and I was the Great & Glorious Supreme Leader, we might not need to be having this discussion - But then again, if I was the Great & Glorious Supreme Leader, we probably wouldn't be allowed to!:D

Thanks, dC.

happyjack

Good reading everyone's different opinions, mine is very simple, from experience in my own life I believe we now live in a fascist police state.

Here's the simple proof;
Whenever a country becomes fascist it starts with the police of that country ignoring the rule of law and deciding they know better, at that stage a country goes down the toilet.

I've asked Gardai which is more important; following orders, or following the law of the land? Most tell me following orders, if they didn't they'd get moved or in trouble with their Super's etc.

There you have it, how much more dangerous a system can you think of, than where a police-force decides to introduce laws that haven't been put to the Dail, (Gun safes) then have the cheek to fight it all the way to the supreme court.

After my HC case was settled I still had to threaten my local Super with getting a bench warrant against him as he still ignored the High Court. What other country would you find the Police showing such disrespect for the rule of law, if any one else had broken a court order their ass would be in jail the same day.

No it's Fascism, do your research, this is the first sign of a country going bad. "I'm only following orders", a sense of knowing better than democratic process and inventing laws that don't exist.

Too many shooters have told me down through the years, "oh don't piss the Guards off, stay quiet, don't ask for what you want or need", sad truth is most shooters are scared of the Gardai and are prepared to take any crap and abuse for a quite life. I believe this is the root cause of our problem, the sheep, let someone else do the fighting and stay quiet. That's what has created this monster. Fear, and you know what, you get what you deserve in this life, no more no less. As for me I'm a born terrier, win lose or draw I'll fight for what I believe is my democratic rights as an EU citizen, but I've learnt not to bother my backside doing it for the sheep out there any more.

I was exposed to a bill of €30,000 plus euro for over a year with my own case and not one bah bah sheep called around to see what he could do to help, I was just lucky the NARGC paid for my case, and for that I wont forget the eaten bread, without the NARGC we would have lost all our guns years ago, The NARGC took all the early cases and most target clubs failed to swap over to them, we forget the eaten bread very fast in Ireland. So why should the NARGC defend target shooters when target shooters turned their backs on them?

So my advice is speak up, let them know you think what they are doing is fascism, stop pandering to corruption, make it tough for them and vote pro shooter come the next election.