HAS ANYBODY GOT A LICENCE FOR A CENTER FIRE PISTOL

Sparks

Fascism?

Okay, seriously folks, you can't just go about handing out your username and password to Joe Duffy or Glenn Beck. Seriously.

Dvs

Sparks wrote: »

Y'know DvS, I might not have voted for the party that's now in government, but at least I had a vote. The problem was, everyone else voted Fianna Fail with theirs.

It might well suck, but it's still democratic. It's just proving Churchill right.

The entire generalization that having a vote equals democracy idea is false, elections in recent times in Zimbabwe and Iraq illustrate that pretty well.

Now I now am not saying that intimadation and voting fraud are happening in Irish elections, but the idea that having a vote equals democracy is not true.

Irish politicians regardsless of party have little or no idea what the lives of the rest of irish society are like, the exist in the bubble of political life,
yes they might make the right noises now and again, but they view themselves as a breed apart.

Politicians are only concerned about two things getting elected and what they can do to make sure they get elected next time.

Once elected politicians no longer need the people,
and claim to have a mandate, to do what they believe is best for the country and the people, The fact that they have know idea what the are doing, does not seem to bother them in the least, and they dont want to know what the people that will be affected by their actions and and those that have actual knowledge on the issues think is the best course of action, if indeed any action is required.

Most politicians do not know anything about the matters they debate in the Dail this is especially true of Government Ministers.

If you don't believe me pick an issue that you absolutely nothing about that is coming before the Dail, anything, then spend an hour on google learning about the issue, then read the transcript of the debates on the issue that take place in the Dail... a warning once you swallow the red pill the world of politics will never look the same again.

Or you can swallow the blue pill and go back to believing in democracy as you know it, believing that Irish politicians understand the issues before them and will sort it all out for us, as they know what is best for the country and the people.


Dvs.

dCorbus

Thanks Happyjack.

I am truly disturbed to hear about your previous plight. I don't know the facts of your case, but you sound genuinely agrieved!

But to say we live in a Fascist state is pushing the bounds of credulity a wee bit;).
I believe you are doing all right-thinking fascists a disservice by comparing them to our current set of politicians, of all hues!:D:D:rolleyes:

I don't see any trains running on time here.
I do believe we had a massive public service day-of-action (day-of-shopping) yesterday.
I do believe we are debating this issue in an open and public forum.
I do believe the powers of the legislature, executive, and judiciary are still separate in this stage.

(No hold on - here's the Stasi to kick down my door! Ooops, sorry forgot the Stasi weren't fascists were they? They're the lads on the other side:D)

Anyway I digress.;)

Whilst I am not a political theorist, I would think that one of the first actual signs of a fascist regime is that the police and judiciary actually enforce the rule of law unthinkingly and with no recourse to the common good and mores of society.

Your point above seems to suggest that the GS are not following the law. Surely this does not prove the existance of a proto-fascist state, merely the breakdown in communication and training?

Have you complained to the ombudspersonage?:D

Sparks

DvS, no offence, but I think I might possibly have seen as much of the Dail and Seanad as yourself. Some might hint that there's a slim chance I've seen more, but pffft, what would they know?

They're still not fascist. Corrupt, lazy, ignorant, yes - but that's what we vote for, each and every time, because we are corrupt, lazy and ignorant ourselves.

shannonpowerlab

Sparks wrote: »

Fascism?

Okay, seriously folks, you can't just go about handing out your username and password to Joe Duffy or Glenn Beck. Seriously.

Please excuse my ignorance...But I heard one of the names you have mentioned...Who are they?

dCorbus

Dvs, thanks again.

But you still haven't answered my questions?:D

Has any member of the shooting community ever stood for election to support and improve shooting in Ireland, either as an Independent or as a member of a party?

Have you yourself or any of your shooting colleagues put themselves forward for election in advancement of your ideals?

Has a political party / movement ever been formed to advance these ideals?

Have these ideals been lobbied for in a coherent and rational way in order to push this into the public consciousness and make it an election issue (albeit a minor one in the scale of things)?

So, can NO be answered to any of these?

And again, I have to reiterate that if so, the opportunities for democracy have not been exhausted!:D

Thanks dC

rrpc

To be honest, unless they were an independent, there'd be no point. The whip system would kill any independence before it saw the light of day.

And obviously we haven't had any firearms advocates elected as independents. Tony Gregory anyone?

rowa

dCorbus wrote: »

Dvs, thanks again.

But you still haven't answered my questions?:D



So, can NO be answered to any of these?

And again, I have to reiterate that if so, the opportunities for democracy have not been exhausted!:D

Thanks dC

some t.d.'s have been shooters e.g michael mcdowell but they soon put there career in front of the shooting .

dCorbus

So I'm guessing that's a couple of "no's" then!:D
So let's keep on giving this old democracy lark a chance, then!:rolleyes:

See not all the options have been exhausted and not all avenues gone down.

So now, who wants to volunteer to

a) Stand for election to support and improve shooting in Ireland, either as an Independent or as a member of a party?

b) Put themselves forward for election in advancement of your ideals?

c) Form a political party / movement to advance these ideals?

d) Have these ideals been lobbied for in a coherent and rational way in order to push this into the public consciousness and make it an election issue?

Any takers?:D

Dvs

Sparks wrote: »

DvS, no offence, but I think I might possibly have seen as much of the Dail and Seanad as yourself. Some might hint that there's a slim chance I've seen more, but pffft, what would they know?

They're still not fascist. Corrupt, lazy, ignorant, yes - but that's what we vote for, each and every time, because we are corrupt, lazy and ignorant ourselves.

Sparks,
I have to say I am not offended, but I must confess I am somewhat amused that you would say some might hint that theres a slim chance you have seen more Dail and Seanad debates.

I was not suggesting to you that you pick an issue that you absolutely nothing about that is coming before the Dail, anything, then spend an hour on google learning about the issue, then read the transcript of the debates on the issue that take place in the Dail.

I only quoted you regarding your having a vote equals democracy generalization, the rest was directed to other forum members that may believe that politicians understand what they debate in the Dail.

I made no mention of Fascism.

But in keeping with the spirit of you last post
Some might hint that my dads bigger than your dad, but pffft, what would they know?


Dvs.

happyjack

dCorbus wrote: »

Thanks Happyjack.

I am truly disturbed to hear about your previous plight. I don't know the facts of your case, but you sound genuinely agrieved!

But to say we live in a Fascist state is pushing the bounds of credulity a wee bit;).
I believe you are doing all right-thinking fascists a disservice by comparing them to our current set of politicians, of all hues!:D:D:rolleyes:

I don't see any trains running on time here.
I do believe we had a massive public service day-of-action (day-of-shopping) yesterday.
I do believe we are debating this issue in an open and public forum.
I do believe the powers of the legislature, executive, and judiciary are still separate in this stage.

(No hold on - here's the Stasi to kick down my door! Ooops, sorry forgot the Stasi weren't fascists were they? They're the lads on the other side:D)

Anyway I digress.;)

Whilst I am not a political theorist, I would think that one of the first actual signs of a fascist regime is that the police and judiciary actually enforce the rule of law unthinkingly and with no recourse to the common good and mores of society.

Your point above seems to suggest that the GS are not following the law. Surely this does not prove the existance of a proto-fascist state, merely the breakdown in communication and training?

Have you complained to the ombudspersonage?:D

Yes I did, and they got a Garda Chief Superintendent to investigate another Garda Super. I was told they would investage, but after a year they changed their mind and got the Gardai to investigate the Gardai.

Courts do not need to go bad to create a fascist state, just the police need to have a direct line to the powers that be, by passing courts and government.

I speak from experience, wasted time, money and at one stage they even came to where I work and pushed me about and threatened me.

All because my chosen sport is shooting. Shooting is the first sport to be clamped down on by facists, each and every time.

I need to just sit on the side lines for awhile, so I'd be grateful of a break,
don't want to live angrey all the time, it's wasted energy.

HJ

tonysopprano

dCorbus, as this is a shooting forum and you claim to represent shooters ( or at least want to), maybe it would be to your advantage to investigate further.

Take the "Dunne vs Donoghue" Supreme Court judgement first of all.
Read this finding and then ask anyone who has received a written refusal, from all corners of the country, to post it with the personal details deleted.

Compare the postings, and then tell us what you see, as to whether the findings are consistant or not with the judgement.

Then re-read your earlier statements and tell us your findings.

On another note, please tell us how a public service day-of-action became " a day of shopping" as quoted by you. Is it because RTE ( a government run media and other similar media outlets) or the Irish Independant (who had it as it's lead before any reports of the strike) reported it to deflect from the issues at hand or maybe you manned ALL border crossings yesterday, doing a questionaire as to what people worked at, or maybe it was parents, whose children were not at school for whatever reason or maybe ( as I see every week ) because we are being ripped off by government and big business, as many people as can, head north to save some money.

sfakiaman

Since this thread seems to have gone all political, may I suggest people look at the reality of the political system. Every party has a local membership which votes on affairs at constituency level. Only those ar**d enough to attend meetings get to vote. Of those few some will be delegated to vote at constituency level for the person (persons) who will be the candidate for Dail Eireann. If you want to make a change for the better join the party of your choice and start making waves.

Some here have been stating that the current administration is fascist, this is, in my opinion, to dignify them with the belief that they have an actual dogma beyond re-election.

The time for bitching is long past and I keep hearing the words of a Russian poet saying:

Graze on ye peaceful sheep and cattle
Freedoms call will never grip
Or stir you into honours battle
For you the knife the shearers clip
Your heritage the heardsmans rattle
The goad, the prod the drovers whip

rrpc

tonysopprano wrote: »

dCorbus, as this is a shooting forum and you claim to represent shooters ( or at least want to), maybe it would be to your advantage to investigate further.

Take the "Dunne vs Donoghue" Supreme Court judgement first of all.
Read this finding and then ask anyone who has received a written refusal, from all corners of the country, to post it with the personal details deleted.

Compare the postings, and then tell us what you see, as to whether the findings are consistant or not with the judgement.

I don't follow you tony, the findings are the judgment the way you put it above, so of course they'll be the same. Where do the refusal letters come into the equation?

And I don't see the relevance of Dunne v Donohue to any of the refusals to date.

On another note, please tell us how a public service day-of-action became " a day of shopping" as quoted by you. Is it because RTE ( a government run media and other similar media outlets) or the Irish Independant (who had it as it's lead before any reports of the strike) reported it to deflect from the issues at hand

RTE is also known as 'the Civil Service news'. They very seldom say anything but rah, rah, rah for any civil servant. Must have been pretty bad for them to have reported on it.

But we're going waaaay off topic now, so lets keep it to the point here. We're talking about centre fire pistol refusals, not the underemployed.

dCorbus

Tonysoprano, thanks for that.:D


Firstly:

dCorbus, as this is a shooting forum and you claim to represent shooters ( or at least want to),

I know this is a shooting forum;). Nowhere have I ever claimed to represent shooters. Nowhere have I said I wished to. So sorry about that - but you seem to have mistaken my intentions.

Take the "Dunne vs Donoghue" Supreme Court judgement first of all.
Read this finding and then ask anyone who has received a written refusal, from all corners of the country, to post it with the personal details deleted.

Compare the postings, and then tell us what you see, as to whether the findings are consistant or not with the judgement.

Sorry, but I'm not a lawyer so not qualified to comment on the legal issues arising from a supreme court ruling. Can you explain this further? Thanks.

Then re-read your earlier statements and tell us your findings

Where in any of my earlier statements have I ever referred to the supreme court, its rulings, licence applications, and / or refusals?

please tell us how a public service day-of-action became " a day of shopping" as quoted by you

That's my half-facetious term for what happened yesterday. Meant to be taken with a pinch of salt, Tonysoprano!:D Didn't see much "action" yesterday though.

Not going to get into a private sector versus public sector debate here, because this is not the place. and it has very little, if anything, to do with shooting: I only mentioned that in passing to show how Ireland was not a "fascist" state (Not my term), because if it was, the day-of-action / strike-day would not have been allowed to proceed under a truly fascist regime. That's the point I was hoping to make - Not debate the pro's and con's of the current economic situation.

Don't read the Indo by the way, never have, never will. Sorry if that doesn't fit into your image of me.

And again, I have to reiterate:

Nowhere have I ever claimed to represent shooters. Nowhere have I said I wished to. (What I have said is that I would like to help shooters and how we are seen by the wider world - But if you don't want the likes of me to help, fine!):o

You seem to be mistaking me for someone else?:D

dCorbus

Can we please get back on topic?:D
Leave our varied political viewpoints at the door and talk about guns and shooting and other cool stuff?:rolleyes::D

SIG

Evening all. I put some post on yesterday and was some what chastised for various reasons, not least for opting out.
Well since then I have found the site to find the standard for BS 7558, (guncabinets ) which is causing me some problems. also see S.I. 307 0f 2009.

http://police.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/operational-policing/firearms-handbook.pdf?view=Binary

I have spent 2.5 hours with my FO who I know to see, me being a culchie. He was out with the notebook recording information which he had no idea of concerning firearms. However this does not look good as there is a lack of understanding and some personal belief's in the operation of this act.

After nearly 40 years of running a business ( and shooting ) I believe that we are de-facto a police state. I have plenty examples of same.

Ireland has become a country of extremes - take our sport / hobby. We had somewhat lax and simple laws governing us. ( they worked reasonably well for 50 years + ) now we have a raft of draconian rules designed to force gun owners to cease, be refused use of their previously licensed guns.
Look at what happened to the poitin men !!
Also I have never failed to vote since I turned 18, and I dont believe that when you vote you should snoze till the next time.

I hear that there is a case in Cork, where a Judge has reserved a decision on an appeal by a gun owner against a refusal, and this may be due for a decision in the next week. Has anyone information on this.

rrpc

SIG wrote: »

I hear that there is a case in Cork, where a Judge has reserved a decision on an appeal by a gun owner against a refusal, and this may be due for a decision in the next week. Has anyone information on this.

We should refrain from discussing this until the Judge has come to a decision. I believe that will be next Monday.

dCorbus

they worked reasonably well for 50 years +

Eh?
I'm not old enough to remember - but didn't the government of the time nick everyone's firearms back in 1972 / 1973 and put them into Cold Storage?

BS 7558, (guncabinets ) which is causing me some problems

Why is BS7558 causing you problems? Are you attempting to construct your own gunsafe?;) If not, you can buy a BS7558 compliant safe from nearly all the gun dealers around.

What's with the link to the UK Home Office?:D Someone correct me if I'm wrong (No worries there methinks!:)), but AFAIK the document you link to has no status in Ireland - Are you in N. Ireland, coz then it probably does?

we are de-facto a police state

Please, not this again!?:D:D:rolleyes:

Look at what happened to the poitin men

Ah, now.....what?:D

I dont believe that when you vote you should snoze till the next time

100% agree with you there!:)

I hear that there is a case in Cork, where a Judge has reserved a decision on an appeal by a gun owner against a refusal, and this may be due for a decision in the next week. Has anyone information on this

There's another thread somewhere on that very topic: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055742152

I think that's the one. Hope that helps!

dCorbus

In fairness to the O/P

HAS ANYBODY GOT A LICENCE FOR A CENTER FIRE PISTOL
hi all
its looks like a back door ban for center fire pistols can any body say other wise?????????

To get back on topic: Has anybody got a licence for a C/F pistol?

milkerman

rrpc wrote: »

RTE is also known as 'the Civil Service news'. They very seldom say anything but rah, rah, rah for any civil servant. Must have been pretty bad for them to have reported on it.

Well, I have heard RTE described in various ways but never that one before - you must have coined it yourself.

A few years ago I did a media handling course for my employer. The course was given by a well-known broadcaster. I got an insight into how the 'media' works. They figure that a good row or a list of inflammatory questions, or maybe even a bunch of half truths stop the listener/viewer/reader from changing channel or newspaper. Does the treatment of the evil Glocks seem a bit clearer now? You can say the same for Public Service pay, banking, economics etc. It keeps you listening but is not guaranteed to give a balanced view.

About 6 months ago when we were all decyphering the meaning behind the new legislation I pointed out that our interpretation did not count - the Gardai's interpretation would be what matters. I am sorry to admit to being right. What can we do about it? Now is the time to work on the opposition parties to get their commitment on providing an unambiguous framework for licensing firearms. Formal, written commitment - signed in tripicate if you want. Afterall, they will form the next government in 2 years or less. It is such a shame to think that a shooter would have to risk financial ruin just to stay within the sport - for those of you with the balls & the cash to go the legal route? Best of luck, I hope you get your way.

Finally, RRPC. I find your comment about the underemployed offensive. I am married to one of the 'underemployed', she minds a young man with spina bifida - she washes him, shaves him, helps him pee or take a dump and all the rest and guess what? This public servant in so-called secure employment is out of a job come January 2nd. I know this is may be off topic but the current feeding frenzy on Civil Servants reminds me of the recent feeding frenzy on 9mm pistols - illinformed.
Rant over.

SIG

31 years ago I made 3 gun cabinets in 3/8 sheet steel, with seperate inner locked compartments when no one had a gun safe. believe it or now they meet the UK BS except in one small area which I will weld to them . Bolted them to ground in 3 different locations to store the 4 guns. Never a problem, even invited Garda members to view.
Common sense used to be a mark of reason when dealing with issues. Now you have to assert yourself.

Can you see half the Farmers, under siege on many fronts, going to get a Photo, Doctors ref, Independent referees etc to licence the single barrel vermin gun ?

I have a pal , a retired doctor who does not have a GP as he has never needed one in a long healthy life - how do you or the act deal with that one?. -Common sense !!! where are thou ?

SIG

A thought. Why cant we organise a single National body to Represent the sports shooting body of persons ?

Am I a deluded dreamer ? as well.

dCorbus

Ah, if only......;)

milkerman

dCorbus wrote: »

In fairness to the O/P



To get back on topic: Has anybody got a licence for a C/F pistol?

Short answer - YES. I know of 2x 9mm pistols and one no. .38 revolver in my club. I couldnt see any particular reason why they got good news from their Chief Super and the other lads didn't.

dCorbus

I couldnt see any particular reason why they got good news from their Chief Super and the other lads didn't

OK, this is really gonna sound like a dumbass and exceptionally naive question:

Surely to god there must have been some reason why some lads got licenses and some didn't, particularly from the same CS?:o

SIG

My Understanding from people in higher places was that there would be re-licencing of C/F to those who held licences prior to the ministers veto.

What is happening is a complete turnaround on what was supposed to be a resolution for existing lence holders.

Do I detect that there is a united ( but not fully, for very good reasons ) front to refuse those that were to be treated under the so called Grandfather rule ?

milkerman

dCorbus wrote: »

OK, this is really gonna sound like a dumbass and exceptionally naive question:

Surely to god there must have been some reason why some lads got licenses and some didn't, particularly from the same CS?:o

The lucky guys in question had an amicable discussion with the CS. THey explained the extent of their investment in the sport, showed records of competitions etc. They are good speakers both of them and think fast while talking slow.
One of the unlucky guys shares the same CS, I dont think his meeting was quite so amicable.
The rest of the guys have other CS to deal with and dont know what they have done so far.

rrpc

milkerman wrote: »

Well, I have heard RTE described in various ways but never that one before - you must have coined it yourself.

No, heard it from a number of people who watch these things for a living.

About 6 months ago when we were all decyphering the meaning behind the new legislation I pointed out that our interpretation did not count - the Gardai's interpretation would be what matters. I am sorry to admit to being right.

Not quite. There's the DC appeals to come before we get a clearer picture.

What can we do about it? Now is the time to work on the opposition parties to get their commitment on providing an unambiguous framework for licensing firearms. Formal, written commitment - signed in tripicate if you want. Afterall, they will form the next government in 2 years or less. It is such a shame to think that a shooter would have to risk financial ruin just to stay within the sport - for those of you with the balls & the cash to go the legal route? Best of luck, I hope you get your way.

You might recall that FG had an amendment to the bill that required an annual review of its workings. That will be interesting.

Finally, RRPC. I find your comment about the underemployed offensive. I am married to one of the 'underemployed', she minds a young man with spina bifida - she washes him, shaves him, helps him pee or take a dump and all the rest and guess what? This public servant in so-called secure employment is out of a job come January 2nd. I know this is may be off topic but the current feeding frenzy on Civil Servants reminds me of the recent feeding frenzy on 9mm pistols - illinformed.
Rant over.

I apologise if my remark offended you. I have quite a few friends who are civil servants themselves and they characterise the service as being in three equal parts: One third work at least as hard as anyone in the private sector, one third do the work they're given and no more and one third do nothing at all.

tonysopprano

dCorbus wrote: »

Tonysoprano, thanks for that.:D


Firstly:



I know this is a shooting forum;). Nowhere have I ever claimed to represent shooters. Nowhere have I said I wished to. So sorry about that - but you seem to have mistaken my intentions.

So all these polls and ideas to be a PRO are false or only for your own ego



Sorry, but I'm not a lawyer so not qualified to comment on the legal issues arising from a supreme court ruling. Can you explain this further? Thanks.

"Dunne vs Donoghue" stated that no blanket bans could be implemented and every case should be taken on it's own merits.

Check out the letters received by me and at least 8 other shooters from different Chief Superintendents.



Where in any of my earlier statements have I ever referred to the supreme court, its rulings, licence applications, and / or refusals?

"Whilst I am not a political theorist, I would think that one of the first actual signs of a fascist regime is that the police and judiciary actually enforce the rule of law unthinkingly and with no recourse to the common good and mores of society.
Your quote.

What does it mean when the authorities fail to enforce, or rather snub the findings of the Judiciary ?



That's my half-facetious term for what happened yesterday. Meant to be taken with a pinch of salt, Tonysoprano!:D Didn't see much "action" yesterday though.

Well someone who has aspirations or the like of yourself should take himself away from "half-facetious term"s or statements "meant to be taken with a pinch of salt"

Not going to get into a private sector versus public sector debate here, because this is not the place. and it has very little, if anything, to do with shooting: I only mentioned that in passing to show how Ireland was not a "fascist" state (Not my term), because if it was, the day-of-action / strike-day would not have been allowed to proceed under a truly fascist regime. That's the point I was hoping to make - Not debate the pro's and con's of the current economic situation.

Check out WIKIPEDIA for Facism,

Fascism, pronounced /ˈfæʃɪzəm/, is a political ideology that seeks to combine radical and authoritariannationalism[1][2][3][4] with a corporatist economic system,[5] and which is usually considered to be on the far right of the traditional left-right political spectrum.[6][7][8][9][10]
Fascists advocate the creation of a single-party state,[11] with the belief that the majority is unsuited to govern itself through democracy and by reaffirming the benefits of inequality.[12]

Don't read the Indo by the way, never have, never will. Sorry if that doesn't fit into your image of me.

And again, I have to reiterate:

Nowhere have I ever claimed to represent shooters. Nowhere have I said I wished to. (What I have said is that I would like to help shooters and how we are seen by the wider world - But if you don't want the likes of me to help, fine!):o

See below.

You seem to be mistaking me for someone else?:D

"I would like to help shooters and how we are seen by the wider world "

Your quote.

Maybe I misunderstand, but to me, your statement above translates as,

Public Relations

• (used with a sing. verb) The art or science of establishing and promoting a favorable relationship with the public.
• (used with a pl. verb) The methods and activities employed to establish and promote a favorable relationship with the public.
• (used with a sing. or pl. verb) The degree of success obtained in achieving a favorable relationship with the public.