HAS ANYBODY GOT A LICENCE FOR A CENTER FIRE PISTOL

rrpc

Tony, Dunne v Donohue found that the Commissioner through the Superintendents could not impose blanket preconditions on the issue of a licence. Any Superintendent could impose any preconditions he wanted to so long as they weren't 'blanket preconditions' meaning he'd considered each application on its merits.

Section 29 of the 2009 act has taken care of that. Now the Minister or Commissioner can set any conditions they want.

So far we have only anecdotal evidence that Chief Superintendents are operating blanket bans. Until we see it in writing, it's hearsay and not worth the paper it's written on.

Finally, your swipe at the judiciary is ill timed and undeserved. For the most part, we have had the balance of judgments in the High Court and it remains to be seen how the District Court fares.

SIG

Good Morn all,

For an example of common sense - FIREARMS SECURITY HANDBOOK 2005, U.K. Home office & Police & British Shooting sports council.
Have a look

Its full of technical & legal detail, but tempered with that rare IRISH TRAIT - COMMON SENSE.

'Ta tir na og ar cul an ti, tir allaing trine ceile'

SIG

well RRPC,
I can tell you that my DG will not even allow you to speak on this issue - your gone before you start.
I do not have any criminal or inditable convictions. No DD either. A few civil issues over the years.
However I expect to be there and in the four goldmines as well !

tonysopprano

rrpc wrote: »

Tony, Dunne v Donohue found that the Commissioner through the Superintendents could not impose blanket preconditions on the issue of a licence. Any Superintendent could impose any preconditions he wanted to so long as they weren't 'blanket preconditions' meaning he'd considered each application on its merits.

So all C/S coming together and agreeing ( forget exact phrase, but like getaway driver in bank robbery where someone is shot, driver gets charged with shooting), that unless you have this/or that (as agreed by them and undefined and unavailable to Joe Public), does not constitute a blanket ban?

Section 29 of the 2009 act has taken care of that. Now the Minister or Commissioner can set any conditions they want.

No he/they cannot. To quote section 29
"may issue guidelines"
Still challangeable in court but must be available in the public domain.

So far we have only anecdotal evidence that Chief Superintendents are operating blanket bans. Until we see it in writing, it's hearsay and not worth the paper it's written on.

Please check refusals.( Cannot let the cat out of the bag, but if you are not in the know, then you are NOT IN THE KNOW"

Finally, your swipe at the judiciary is ill timed and undeserved. For the most part, we have had the balance of judgments in the High Court and it remains to be seen how the District Court fares.

It is not us against them, we only got what we we're entitled to by law

happyjack

No news of any centerfire pistols issued in Kerry, phoned around and most shooters tell me they have been left in libo, license expired and no news from Gardai.

My local FD told me he took in 48 different types of firearms in just one month, from folks fed up with the new licensing system. It's a shocking amount for a small area.

Any news from around the country about guns being handed in over new licensing system?

rowa

happyjack wrote: »

No news of any centerfire pistols issued in Kerry, phoned around and most shooters tell me they have been left in libo, license expired and no news from Gardai.

My local FD told me he took in 48 different types of firearms in just one month, from folks fed up with the new licensing system. It's a shocking amount for a small area.

Any news from around the country about guns being handed in over new licensing system?

i have had no news either about my centrefire , i think it may be a case of "wait and see " on behalf of the gardai , they are waiting to see if they are going to wind up in court and what those courts are going to say .

i have been contacted in regards to my .22 revolver , i had been told that it was unrestricted by the fpu , but the super decided it was a restricted firearm as it wasn't on the list and sent it on to the chief super , he now is looking for the cylinder to be blocked , so as only 5 rounds can be loaded , has common sense flow off completely ? a single extra round of .22 ammunition and a gun is more dangerous.

rrpc

tonysopprano wrote: »

So all C/S coming together and agreeing ( forget exact phrase, but like getaway driver in bank robbery where someone is shot, driver gets charged with shooting), that unless you have this/or that (as agreed by them and undefined and unavailable to Joe Public), does not constitute a blanket ban?

Conspiring, and if that were the case then we'd be getting the exact same results from every division which we're not.

No he/they cannot. To quote section 29
"may issue guidelines"
Still challangeable in court but must be available in the public domain.

Why did you stop reading?

(2) In particular, the Commissioner may issue such guidelines in relation to applications for firearm certificates and authorisations under this Act and to the conditions which may be attached to those certificates and authorisations.

Please check refusals.( Cannot let the cat out of the bag, but if you are not in the know, then you are NOT IN THE KNOW"

FFS, what's with the nudge, nudge, wink, wink stuff? I've seen plenty of refusals and they're not all the same. And I've not seen one refusal that says "I'm refusing you on the grounds that I'm refusing all centre fire pistols in my division"

It is not us against them, we only got what we we're entitled to by law

Eh??

rrpc

SIG wrote: »

well RRPC,
I can tell you that my DG will not even allow you to speak on this issue - your gone before you start.
I do not have any criminal or inditable convictions. No DD either. A few civil issues over the years.
However I expect to be there and in the four goldmines as well !

What's a DG?

knockon

rrpc wrote: »

What's a DG?

And whats a DD?

Grizzly 45

DD ....a vey big piece of ladies underwear apperel???;)

CJhaughey

DD, DG? This thread has got FUBAR.:D

Sparks

rrpc wrote: »

And I don't see the relevance of Dunne v Donohue to any of the refusals to date.

It hasn't any ... right up until someone mentions the phrase 'blanket ban' or its equivalent in court or on paper. At which point, that person is either admitting to, or accusing someone of, contempt of the Supreme Court because Article 29 doesn't overturn Dunne - the Minister and Commissioner may issue guidelines on the conditions a Super/Chief Super can attach to an individual licence. ie. the Minister can say it's not on to demand 24hr security guards from anyone. But they can't say "no applications for a Ruger will be accepted" or whatever. Blanket bans, according to Dunne, are a subversion of the authority of the Dail because they're a de facto rewriting of the Firearms Act without going through the Oireachtas.

Now, until someone says they're not letting pistols in, or someone reports that someone said that, this doesn't come into it - and I think it very likely that's why we've seen so many form refusal letters of late.

meathshooter

Sparks wrote: »

It hasn't any ... right up until someone mentions the phrase 'blanket ban' or its equivalent in court or on paper. At which point, that person is either admitting to, or accusing someone of, contempt of the Supreme Court because Article 29 doesn't overturn Dunne - the Minister and Commissioner may issue guidelines on the conditions a Super/Chief Super can attach to an individual licence. ie. the Minister can say it's not on to demand 24hr security guards from anyone. But they can't say "no applications for a Ruger will be accepted" or whatever. Blanket bans, according to Dunne, are a subversion of the authority of the Dail because they're a de facto rewriting of the Firearms Act without going through the Oireachtas.

Now, until someone says they're not letting pistols in, or someone reports that someone said that, this doesn't come into it - and I think it very likely that's why we've seen so many form refusal letters of late.

Theres a method to their madness which should been apparent very shortly

Sparks

Don't tease meathshooter, tell us what you mean. Otherwise it just sounds a bit blazerish

Bananaman

blazerish

Ammo which is quite like blazer - a.k.a poor??

B'Man

Sparks

Bananaman wrote: »

Ammo which is quite like blazer - a.k.a poor??

No, someone who's more in to blazer-wearing and big-dinner-attending than they are into shooting. Which, by the way, is not the same thing as someone who spends more time doing the admin gruntwork than actually getting to shoot...

Sparks

SIG wrote: »

A thought. Why cant we organise a single National body to Represent the sports shooting body of persons ?
Am I a deluded dreamer ? as well.

Okay, that's the 84th or so time that's been asked, so from this point out, I'm just referring folks to the Shooting FAQ:

Why don't we have a single body for all shooting in Ireland?

Bananaman

The Single body ploy is not working

I suggest that we start 10 more groups - some suggestions would be

1. Irish Shootists
2. Shooters of Ireland
3. Shooters na h'Eireann
4. Female Shooters Front
5. Male Shooters for Equality
6. Shooting Enthusiasts of the four Provinces
7. The old Hibernian Shooting Association
8. The young Hibernian Shooting Association
9. The Celtic Shooting Circle
10. Shooters against Phone masts

Produce constitutions ( we can use some of the central american ones as templates )

Elect committees, ensuring that there are positions for everyone and everyone is a deputy something or other on at least 4 other committees but with no actual responsibilities, after all lads - it's just a bit of craic.

Try to make sure there a few women on some of the committees, especially if you have any members of Portmarnock on them.

Then we should all (individually) call for "action" and


Leave it at that.

B'Man

Sparks

I thought that's what half of us were doing already!

happyjack

Can anyone help me out with this question, why was FLAG disbanded?
Surely that is what we need a Firearms Legislation Action Group, I never understood the notion that we would not need at some time in the future a body to help target shooters keep their kit.

I said it back in 2005 that the Gardai had their own agenda, I got a motion of discovery some time later and in it was a lot of stuff about Olympic pistols being the way to go, early Jan/Feb 2005 they we're thinking of recalling all centerfire calibre pistols as Police/Military type "weapons".

The only thing that stopped them trying to recall 9's and such was the amount of cases going to the High Court.

The other side of the coin, and it's fare to say, a good few ejits got 9's as gun jewellery, with no real notion of target shooting or joining a club.

I reckon when the dust settles on all this, the Garda comissioner will ask justice far an outright ban, which may even include .22lr pistols, you can be sure he's asked already.

Under Irish law I dont think we have a right as such to gun ownership, but I think maybe we do under European civil rights law. Can anyone clear that up for me.

It's great living in the natural home of the Sam cup! Up the Kingdom.

Theres over 300 Golf clubs in Ireland, thats bananas, grown men in bright garish clothes knocking a wee ball around. Maybe if we had 300+ target clubs we'd not be in this bother, strenght of numbers, you can be sure no ones going to ban golfing.

Going strolling for a pheasant, keeps my back in shape, it's like meditation for the head, very relaxing.

HJ

rrpc

Bananaman wrote: »

[*]Shooters against Phone masts

Is that a more modern version of "first against the wall when the revolution comes"?

Sparks

happyjack wrote: »

Can anyone help me out with this question, why was FLAG disbanded?

We discussed this before, when they were not chosen as the main FCP representatives for the SSAI because they were useless. Lots of noise, no real results, and they took risks that people freaked out about because you do not take a high court case when all you have in the bank is about five grand (punts at the time). Shortly after that, they quit (and demanded that the money donated to them be given away to charity. Instead it's now been given to the NASRPC as part of their legal fund for the current test case they're taking).

Under Irish law I dont think we have a right as such to gun ownership, but I think maybe we do under European civil rights law. Can anyone clear that up for me.

No rights under Irish law and European law has no such right either; plus, EU law specifically defers to member state law in the area of firearms except as it relates to trafficing regulations.

Maybe if we had 300+ target clubs we'd not be in this bother

Perhaps. I think it more likely that if we had the amount of money and good PR that golfing enjoys that we'd have their level of security as well. But look at our public image - photos of us posing with bayonet collections in the Digest, lots of people who seem to have no concept of how the basics of the law and governance and civics work in Ireland standing up in public and making eejits of us all, and a mindset that recoils from any form of publicity attempt whenever it's given the option. Golf's got little to fear from us stealing their position!

Bananaman

Sparks,

I think that is your own personal opinion and not the perceived wisdom of the group as a whole
Its no secret that you show open hostility, bordering on the worrisome, towards those that were involved in FLAG. Frankly I'm sick of it.

I for one would, as I think would many, have been very happy to see FLAG re-instated.

Had it happened, we would no doubt be in a different situation today.
Before you say it could be worse I would ask you to reign in the spittle and vitriol.
We would all have to be in Jail for it be any worse than what we have now
Anything would have been better than what we got.

Good or bad FLAG had balls and would stand up to these tyrants.
That tends to pi$$ off the part time Diplomats but look where they got us.
"Keep your heads down lads - you'll get to keep what you have"
Need I say more.

Too much arse patting, bowing and tipping of hats these days, in my view

A bit of old fashioned belligerence, intransigence and spine on our side is what is needed.

B'Man

meathshooter

Sparks wrote: »

Don't tease meathshooter, tell us what you mean. Otherwise it just sounds a bit blazerish

what I mean is there are a few court cases still to be dealt in the courts that we cant talk about.but from what I hear is the garda Don't have the blank cheque book from the DOJ anymore and that they have to fund from there own
budget any challenge

Sparks

We would all have to be in Jail for it be any worse than what we have now

No, we wouldn't. Right now, bad as it is, we have some pistols. There are problems with centerfire pistols, major ones, and that's undisputed. But we still have some - I have absolutely no doubts based on ten years of volunteer efforts in this area that we would now not have any pistols, of any kind had FLAG continued as it was doing.

Not to mention, one loss and we'd have suddenly found that every NGB in the NRPAI was being given a six-figure court costs bill, with about five thousand or so of that paid for. It would have bankrupted everyone involved, taken every penny in the coffers, and still left us with a five-figure sum to pay down over several years.

As to "keep the head down lads" and standing up to people, you're forgetting pretty fast that it was FLAG that defended the Criminal Justice Act 2006 that brought in the bulk of the powers that the Minister has used to gut your sport and do so much to mine:

FLAG wrote:

There is a lot of good in the amendments, we also have to be aware of the bigger picture, do you think it hels us that Gun related crime while ahving no bearing on sport shooting is running riot in the country and we are lucky to be out of the lime light on it.

Not to mention that the chairman of FLAG went along with the shutting down of IPSA in order to get back onto the committee of the SSAI as their PRO (only to quit once again when required to work according to the agreed procedures).

You can call all of this my opinion - but don't make out like there's no reason for that opinion to be that way, nor that it's my opinion and mine alone. I had ten years of watching FLAG work against my sport, overtly and otherwise, and I'm justifiably sick of seeing folks talk about FLAG like it was ever a good idea.

Sparks

meathshooter wrote: »

what I hear is the garda Don't have the blank cheque book from the DOJ anymore and that they have to fund from there own budget any challenge

That would be a rather interesting development...

meathshooter

Sparks wrote: »

That would be a rather interesting development...

recession is kicking in big time cutbacks in all departments,god knows how much will be wasted forcing law abiding sporting firearms owners as a last resort to go to court for what they strongly believe in.After all we have done noting wrong and that money wasted could be put to better uses

murph226

Hi lads, I have a meeting with my Chief Super tomorrow.

I was given no indication as to whether or not my license would be renewed.

johngalway

Bananaman wrote: »

1. Female Shooters Behind

I think this ones a runner, we could get quite a few shooters united under that

meathshooter

murph226 wrote: »

Hi lads, I have a meeting with my Chief Super tomorrow.

I was given no indication as to whether or not my license would be renewed.

best of luck murph hope you get what you want