Denmark paying immigrants to go home

PaulieD

_Nuno_ wrote: »

Tough, isn't it?

You are a guest in my nation, not a citizen.

PaulieD

djpbarry wrote: »

Actually, the number of unemployed non-Irish nationals is just under 51,000, but anyway...

79,000 actually.

herya

PaulieD wrote: »

Would that be a cause or effect of mass emigration from Poland?:rolleyes:

Both, but it started right after 1989 and really started rolling in the 90s. Especially in the east of Poland. Ukrainian nannies and cleaning ladies - another industry. There are many kids in Poland who speak with Ukrainian accents now It's been like this since early nineties too.

oscarBravo

PaulieD wrote: »

You are a guest in my nation, not a citizen.

So what?

herya

PaulieD wrote: »

Would that be a cause or effect of mass emigration from Poland?:rolleyes:

Actually the biggest cause of mass emigration from Poland was 2001 budget collapse, cuts in the public sector, resulting crisis and no future for graduates. Therefore graduates started leaving in droves as soon as they could (hence the demographics here in Ireland - builders or graduate office/IT jobs or catering/Spar/customer service for the unlucky/unqualified).

Exactly the situation your hypothetical Jimmy is in now.

PaulieD

herya wrote: »

Both, but it started right after 1989 and really started rolling in the 90s. Especially in the east of Poland. Ukrainian nannies and cleaning ladies is another industry. There are many kids in Poland who speak with Ukrainian accents now It's been like this since early nineties too.

98% of Polands population consists of ethnic Poles. You are not comparing like with like.

Lest we forget how welcoming the Poles are; http://www.independent.ie/national-news/no-irish-need-apply--polish-builders-get-their-own-back-1589265.html

I believe in reciprocity.

PaulieD

herya wrote: »

Actually the biggest cause of mass emigration from Poland was 2001 budget collapse, cuts in the public sector, resulting crisis and no future for graduates. Therefore graduates started leaving in droves as soon as they could (hence the demographics here in Ireland - builders or graduate office/IT jobs or catering or customer service for the unlucky). Exactly the situation your hypothetical Jimmy is in now.

What part of "Jimmy cannot find a job, in his field, due to mass immigration" do you have difficulty with?

herya

PaulieD wrote: »

98% of Polands population consists of ethnic Poles. You are not comparing like with like.

That's why I mention certain sectors in certain areas. Plus many of these workers are undocumented. If not most - I don't know the statistics but I'd hazard such a guess.

PaulieD wrote: »

Lest we forget how welcoming the Poles are; http://www.independent.ie/national-news/no-irish-need-apply--polish-builders-get-their-own-back-1589265.html

You believe in one reader's letter as the source of social welfare stats so I shouldn't be surprised you believe in urban myths too - still I am.

PaulieD wrote: »

I believe in reciprocity.

You have it, and lots more - it's been found that putting a foreign name on your CV siginificatly limits your chance of employment. They just don't have the courage to put a sign up.

_Nuno_

PaulieD wrote: »

You are a guest in my nation, not a citizen.

It's not your nation.

But that being said, I respect the laws wherever I go and I pay my taxes and I don't consider myself a second rate citizen, regardless of what people like you and O'Morris may think.

I will leave at my convenience, not yours.

_Nuno_

PaulieD wrote: »

What part of "Jimmy cannot find a job, in his field, due to mass immigration"

jimmy should have got himself an education.....

PaulieD

_Nuno_ wrote: »

It's not your nation.

It most certainly is. As I said, you are a guest. Guests can always be repatriated.

PaulieD

_Nuno_ wrote: »

jimmy should have got himself an education.....

We cant all be doctors and investment managers.

herya

PaulieD wrote: »

What part of "Jimmy cannot find a job, in his field, due to mass immigration" do you have difficulty with?

The premise. Jimmy can't find a job in his field due to recession. He was doing fine before that with the immigrants firmly in place.

PaulieD

herya wrote: »

The premise. Jimmy can't find a job in his field due to recession. He was doing fine before that with the immigrants firmly in place.

So, no job displacement in Ireland then?

O'Morris

marco polo wrote:

That latest CSO figures showing a net emigration of 7800 for the year ending April 2009.

Taking immigration from newer accession states(EU12) as an example it is down from down from peaks of 50,000 per year in 2006 and 2007 to 13,500 last year. And emmigration in this group increased to 30,100 to April 2009.

Interestingly the number of Irish returning and leaving exactly balances out (18,400 each).

When you subtract the 18,400 from the emigration and immigration figures for the year it works out as 38,900 foreign nationals entering the country last year compared with 46,700 leaving the country. A net reduction of less than 8,000 is not all that significant when you consider how many jobs our economy is losing.

As I've said before, we might have large numbers of people leaving the country but we also have large numbers of people still entering the country.

djpbarry wrote:

You’re implying that a person must hold one of two positions:

1. They want to see a reduction in the number of immigrants in the country (I’m curious to know what ‘reduction’ translates into)
2. They don’t want to see a reduction in the number of foreign job-seekers or welfare recipients

It’s a logical fallacy.

You can rephrase in these terms if you want:

1. They want to see a reduction in the number of foreign job-seekers and welfare-recipients in the country
2. They don’t want to see a reduction in the number of foreign job-seekers and welfare recipients in the country

I want to see a reduction in the number of foreign job-seekers and welfare-recipients in this country. Do you?

djparry wrote:

The point is the number leaving exceeds the number arriving.

It's not good enough. A net reduction of 7.800 foreigners at a time when our economy is losing tens of thousands of jobs is not good enough. We still have far too many people in the country chasing too few jobs. It's really not helping our economic recovery that we're continuing to allow tens of thousands of foreign job-seekers enter the country at a time when we have hundreds of thousands of people out of work. Like most Irish people I think it's time for us to cut down on the numbers. I'm interested to know why 26% of the population believe differently. You're included in that 26% figure and so maybe you might be able to help us understand why a reduction in immigrant numbers wouldn't make things easier for us?

Mena

O'Morris wrote: »

It's not good enough. A net reduction of 7.800 foreigners at a time when our economy is losing tens of thousands of jobs is not good enough. We still have far too many people in the country chasing too few jobs. It's really not helping our economic recovery that we're continuing to allow tens of thousands of foreign job-seekers enter the country at a time when we have hundreds of thousands of people out of work. Like most Irish people I think it's time for us to cut down on the numbers. I'm interested to know why 26% of the population believe differently. You're included in that 26% figure and so maybe you might be able to help us understand why a reduction in immigrant numbers wouldn't make things easier for us?

I'm curious as to what you're proposing here.

Firstly, it's not exactly easy, in fact nigh on impossible, as a non-eu Citizen, to currently get a job in Ireland. The various labour market tests and Eight (if I recall) weeks of local and EU level advertising that have to be applied effectively rule out non-EU citizens from most positions. As someone who once upon a time actually needed a work permit, back in the days of plenty, even then, legally, it was a nightmare.

So that leaves EU citizens, which have a legal right to work here. So if I am reading this correctly, you want to leave the EU, or am I invoking too many leaps of logic?

herya

PaulieD wrote: »

So, no job displacement in Ireland then?

My company has recently hired two specialist IT developers. Our boss is Irish as is the company. The salary was set and not negotiable. They received over 80 applications from both Irish and foreign candidates. They hired one Slovak guy and one German girl. Why? Because they were best programmers of all applies and they had relevant experience.

My local chipper (Italian-Irish) was looking for some extra staff, minimum wage. They got loads of applies, my Polish friend's daughter got the job. Why? Because she has catering exprience and her previous boss confirmed that she's one hard working girl.

Irish bosses choose foreign candidates because it makes sense for them, and they will continue to do so, whatever you may think about job displacement. They could have chosen Irish candidates, but they didn't. If there are Irish people without jobs it's because there's not enough jobs. The immigrants did not cause this.

oscarBravo

O'Morris wrote: »

I want to see a reduction in the number of foreign job-seekers and welfare-recipients in this country. Do you?

I want to see a reduction in the number of job-seekers and welfare-recipients in this country. I don't see why it's necessary to distinguish between Irish and other EU job-seekers and welfare-recipients.

O'Morris

Mena wrote:

Firstly, it's not exactly easy, in fact nigh on impossible, as a non-eu Citizen, to currently get a job in Ireland.

And nor should it be.

Mena wrote:

So that leaves EU citizens, which have a legal right to work here. So if I am reading this correctly, you want to leave the EU, or am I doing too many leaps of logic?

I do want us to leave the EU but I don't think it's necessary for us to leave the EU in order to restrict access to the eastern Europeans. There are mechanisms under existing EU law that allow us to temporarily restrict access in the event of a major disruption to our labour market

oscarBravo wrote:

I want to see a reduction in the number of job-seekers and welfare-recipients in this country. I don't see why it's necessary to distinguish between Irish and other EU job-seekers and welfare-recipients.

You don't see why it's necessary to distinguish between Irish citizens and non-Irish citizens?

oscarBravo

O'Morris wrote: »

You don't see why it's necessary to distinguish between Irish citizens and non-Irish citizens?

No, I don't. I don't consider Irish citzens übermenschen and foreigners untermenschen. I'm aware that that's a view we don't share.

PaulieD

oscarBravo wrote: »

No, I don't. I don't consider Irish citzens übermenschen and foreigners untermenschen. I'm aware that that's a view we don't share.

A whole twenty pages before a reference to the Nazis. New record.:rolleyes:

PaulieD

Mena wrote: »

So that leaves EU citizens, which have a legal right to work here. So if I am reading this correctly, you want to leave the EU, or am I invoking too many leaps of logic?

You are. We can present our case to Brussels, and implement a work permit scheme for citizens from the accession states. Like Germany and Austria.

iv) safeguard clause (paragraph 7)

If an old Member State stops using national law measures and moves to free movement of workers under Community law, there is a possibility to re-impose restrictions if there are serious disturbances on the labour market, or the threat thereof. These "safeguard" clauses have always featured in accession Treaties, but have never been invoked. Therefore the Commission has no practical experience in their operation. However, it is clear that the Commission would expect a Member State to put forward convincing proof of a high level of disturbance on the labour market, in order to justify seeking to re-impose a restriction on free movement of workers, one of the four fundamental freedoms under the EC Treaty*. This same comment will apply to the use of the safeguard clause as between the new Member States (under paragraph 11).

O'Morris

oscarBravo wrote:

No, I don't. I don't consider Irish citzens übermenschen and foreigners untermenschen. I'm aware that that's a view we don't share.

In what way is my attitude towards Irish citizens different from your attitude to EU citizens?

PaulieD

O'Morris wrote: »

You don't see why it's necessary to distinguish between Irish citizens and non-Irish citizens?

We are citizens of the world. Get with the programme. We need these people to do the jobs we apparently are too lazy to do. They are better workers, better educated, and better looking than us too.

/sarcasm

Mena

PaulieD wrote: »

You are. We can present our case to Brussels, and implement a work permit scheme for citizens from the accession states. Like Germany and Austria.

iv) safeguard clause (paragraph 7)

If an old Member State stops using national law measures and moves to free movement of workers under Community law, there is a possibility to re-impose restrictions if there are serious disturbances on the labour market, or the threat thereof. These "safeguard" clauses have always featured in accession Treaties, but have never been invoked. Therefore the Commission has no practical experience in their operation. However, it is clear that the Commission would expect a Member State to put forward convincing proof of a high level of disturbance on the labour market, in order to justify seeking to re-impose a restriction on free movement of workers, one of the four fundamental freedoms under the EC Treaty*. This same comment will apply to the use of the safeguard clause as between the new Member States (under paragraph 11).

That's interesting, and I was not aware of that clause at all. I guess it comes down to

Safeguard Clause wrote:

However, it is clear that the Commission would expect a Member State to put forward convincing proof of a high level of disturbance on the labour market

I don't see how they could possibly justify this position based on the real data available as seen in this thread, though I guess it's all down to interpretation.

PaulieD

Mena wrote: »

I don't see how they could possibly justify this position based on the real data available as seen in this thread, though I guess it's all down to interpretation.

450,000 on the dole. Case closed.

Mena

PaulieD wrote: »

450,000 on the dole. Case closed.

If it was 450 000 Eastern Europeans, you may have a valid point, but it's not so, well, you don't.

oscarBravo

O'Morris wrote: »

In what way is my attitude towards Irish citizens different from your attitude to EU citizens?

Mine is compatible with our membership of the EU.

O'Morris

oscarBravo wrote:

Mine is compatible with our membership of the EU.

Do you believe that we should distinguish between EU nationals and non-EU nationals?

Treating slavic Russians as untermenschen (i.e. non-citizens) is acceptable in your view but treating nordic Germans as untermenschen (i.e. non-citizens) is not acceptable?

oscarBravo

O'Morris wrote: »

Do you believe that we should distinguish between EU nationals and non-EU nationals?

Treating slavic Russians as untermenschen (i.e. non-citizens) is acceptable in your view but treating nordic Germans as untermenschen (i.e. non-citizens) is not acceptable?

Russians are not EU citizens. Germans are EU citizens. You and others are proposing that we discriminate between EU citizens, on the basis of nationality.

We're in the EU. That comes with certain obligations. I'm comfortable with those obligations, but maybe that's because I don't have the same issues with foreigners that many people posting on this thread seem to have.