Denmark paying immigrants to go home

johnathan woss

oscarBravo wrote: »

No, I don't. I don't consider Irish citzens übermenschen and foreigners untermenschen. I'm aware that that's a view we don't share.

What a pathetic statement.

A Strawman Argument and an Ad Hominem fallacy rolled into one.

oscarBravo

johnathan woss wrote: »

What a pathetic statement.

A Strawman Argument and an Ad Hominem fallacy rolled into one.

I disagree. Our fellow EU citizens have a legal right to live and work here. A number of posters on this thread have proposed that they be denied those rights, on the grounds that they're not Irish.

You can dress that up and tie a pretty ribbon around it, but that doesn't stop it being xenophobia.

johnathan woss

oscarBravo wrote: »

I disagree. Our fellow EU citizens have a legal right to live and work here. A number of posters on this thread have proposed that they be denied those rights, on the grounds that they're not Irish.

You can dress that up and tie a pretty ribbon around it, but that doesn't stop it being xenophobia.

Where has anyone on this thread or any other thread in Politics said that Germans, or Poles, or any other EU citizens, are RACIALLY INFERIOR to Irish people ?

I presume saying that would rightly lead to an automatic ban.

oscarBravo

johnathan woss wrote: »

Where has anyone on this thread or any other thread in Politics said that Germans, or Poles, or any other EU citizens, are RACIALLY INFERIOR to Irish people ?

I presume saying that would rightly lead to an automatic ban.

Yes, it would.

It's possible to be xenophobic without describing someone as racially inferior. Saying something like, oh I dunno, they should be denied their legal right to work in this country - that's not explicitly racist, but it's most certainly xenophobic.

herya

johnathan woss wrote: »

Where has anyone on this thread or any other thread in Politics said that Germans, or Poles, or any other EU citizens, are RACIALLY INFERIOR to Irish people ?

I presume saying that would rightly lead to an automatic ban.

xenophobia =/= racism. Xenophobia might be based on race but also on a variety of other factors, such as nationality or the country of origin for example.

johnathan woss

Referencing übermenschen and untermenschen is undeniably bringing race into the argument and is pathetic.

O'Morris

oscarBravo wrote:

Russians are not EU citizens. Germans are EU citizens. You and others are proposing that we discriminate between EU citizens, on the basis of nationality.

I'm proposing that we distinguish between Irish citizens and non-Irish citizens in the same way that you have no problem with us distinguishing between EU and non-EU citizens.

oscarBravo wrote:

We're in the EU. That comes with certain obligations. I'm comfortable with those obligations

Maybe we should ask the hundreds of thousands of people on the dole queues who have recently lost their jobs whether they're comfortable with those obligations?

oscarBravo wrote:

A number of posters on this thread have proposed that they be denied those rights, on the grounds that they're not Irish.

I believe non-Irish citizens should be denied the rights and entitlements of Irish citizens in the same way that you believe that non-EU citizens should be denied the rights and entitlements of EU citizens.

oscarBravo wrote:

It's possible to be xenophobic without describing someone as racially inferior. Saying something like, oh I dunno, they should be denied their legal right to work in this country - that's not explicitly racist, but it's most certainly xenophobic.

Is it xenophobic to support the restrictions currently in place on the Bulgarians and Romanians?

herya

johnathan woss wrote: »

Referencing übermenschen and untermenschen is undeniably bringing race into the argument and is pathetic.

The concept of Ubermensch/Untermensch etc as outlined in Nietzche's philosophy has nothing to do with race either.

johnathan woss

Ubermensch/Untermensch were clearly referenced in the racial context, unless you think that OscarBravo was implying that O'Morris thinks all irish people go through life like Nietsche's superman, destined to live over and over.

Let's not be silly.

oscarBravo

johnathan woss wrote: »

Referencing übermenschen and untermenschen is undeniably bringing race into the argument and is pathetic.

I can't tell from all your arm-waving about the words I used whether or not you agree that illegally discriminating against our fellow EU citizens is xenophobic.

O'Morris wrote: »

I'm proposing that we distinguish between Irish citizens and non-Irish citizens in the same way that you have no problem with us distinguishing between EU and non-EU citizens.

I know what you're proposing. It's illegal, and rooted in xenophobia.

Maybe we should ask the hundreds of thousands of people on the dole queues who have recently lost their jobs whether they're comfortable with those obligations?

Why? Do you think they'd be better off outside the EU, in an isolationist, protectionist country?

I believe non-Irish citizens should be denied the rights and entitlements of Irish citizens in the same way that you believe that non-EU citizens should be denied the rights and entitlements of EU citizens.

I know you believe that. The difference is, you're proposing something that's currently illegal, and would require that we leave the EU to implement.

Is it xenophobic to support the restrictions currently in place on the Bulgarians and Romanians?

In my view, yes.

PaulieD

oscarBravo wrote: »

In my view, yes.

Are both Germany and Austria xenophobic for imposing restrictions on the the citizens of the accession states?

opo

oscarBravo wrote: »

In my view, yes.

Really?

You believe the restrictions are in place solely because we fear Bulgarians and Romanians - personally - to a man, woman or child??

oscarBravo

PaulieD wrote: »

Are both Germany and Austria xenophobic for imposing restrictions on the the citizens of the accession states?

I think that was a policy rooted in xenophobia, yes.

opo wrote: »

You believe the restrictions are in place solely because we fear Bulgarians and Romanians - personally - to a man, woman or child??

Nope. But then, I'm not trying to avoid the discussion by pedantically choosing just one possible definition of a word and diverting the conversation along that track.

If you're prepared to allow for the fact that xenophobia can encompass a dislike of foreigners, as well fear, then we can have a discussion.

opo

oscarBravo wrote: »

I think that was a policy rooted in xenophobia, yes.

Nope. But then, I'm not trying to avoid the discussion by pedantically choosing just one possible definition of a word and diverting the conversation along that track.

If you're prepared to allow for the fact that xenophobia can encompass a dislike of foreigners, as well fear, then we can have a discussion.

I think there is a deeply flawed logic at play either way.

Is the EU in itself xenophobic in your opinion?

oscarBravo

opo wrote: »

I think there is a deeply flawed logic at play either way.

You're free to point out any such flaws.

Is the EU in itself xenophobic in your opinion?

Why would I have that opinion?

opo

oscarBravo wrote: »

You're free to point out any such flaws. Why would I have that opinion?

I am guessing that you suspect that any geo-political enclosure of people is xenophobic and based on exclusion rather than inclusion.

Would you have any problem with immigration flows that may for example, be economically catastrophic?

Do you think it is in any way possible that some people do think this way without being in anyway fearful or even disliking the immigrants themselves personally?

O'Morris

oscarBravo wrote:

Why? Do you think they'd be better off outside the EU, in an isolationist, protectionist country?

I think they'd be better off if they were back in employment. I think the country would be better off as well because we'd have to spend less money supporting those people on the dole. I think the presence here of tens of thousands of foreign job-seekers at a time when we have hundreds of thousands of people out of work is making it much more difficult for us to get those people on the dole back into employment. If we're serious about reducing the size of our deficit and restoring our economy to growth then we need to be honest about the problems that the free movement of low-wage workers from eastern European are causing us.

oscarBravo wrote:

I know you believe that. The difference is, you're proposing something that's currently illegal, and would require that we leave the EU to implement.

I would love to see us leave the EU but I don't think it's necessary in this case. I would like to see our government approaching the EU commission and reminding them of the clause that PaulieD linked to earlier in the thread:

iv) safeguard clause (paragraph 7)]

If an old Member State stops using national law measures and moves to free movement of workers under Community law, there is a possibility to re-impose restrictions if there are serious disturbances on the labour market, or the threat thereof. These "safeguard" clauses have always featured in accession Treaties, but have never been invoked. Therefore the Commission has no practical experience in their operation. However, it is clear that the Commission would expect a Member State to put forward convincing proof of a high level of disturbance on the labour market, in order to justify seeking to re-impose a restriction on free movement of workers, one of the four fundamental freedoms under the EC Treaty*. This same comment will apply to the use of the safeguard clause as between the new Member States (under paragraph 11).

oscarBravo wrote:

In my view, yes.

Do you not think there's a strong economic argument for restricting immigration now that our economy is losing so many jobs and we have so many people out of work?

oscarBravo

opo wrote: »

I am guessing that you suspect that any geo-political enclosure of people is xenophobic and based on exclusion rather than inclusion.

Instead of guessing, perhaps you should actually engage in a discussion. You could start by pointing out the flaws in my logic that you mentioned earlier.

Would you have any problem with immigration flows that may for example, be economically catastrophic?

I think you're mistaking me for someone who believes that we shouldn't have any immigration control whatsoever. I have no idea how you managed to extrapolate that from my belief that we shouldn't illegally discriminate against our fellow EU citizens just because they're not Irish.

Do you think it is in any way possible that some people do think this way without being in anyway fearful or even disliking the immigrants themselves personally?

Oh, I'm sure there are people who harbour a deep dislike of large groups of foreigners, while justifying it to themselves on the grounds that they've nothing against any one given member of one of those groups.

You could some it up in a convenient phrase like, oh, let's say "some of my best friends are <insert nationality here>, but..."

O'Morris wrote: »

I think they'd be better off if they were back in employment. I think the country would be better off as well because we'd have to spend less money supporting those people on the dole. I think the presence here of tens of thousands of foreign job-seekers at a time when we have hundreds of thousands of people out of work is making it much more difficult for us to get those people on the dole back into employment. If we're serious about reducing the size of our deficit and restoring our economy to growth then we need to be honest about the problems that the free movement of low-wage workers from eastern European are causing us.

How wonderful to be able to reduce an entire economic debacle down to a single one-dimensional issue. The economy is a basket case: let's kick johnny foreigner out and give his job to someone on the dole (whether he wants it or not, or is qualified for it or not).

With all due respect, I have no reason to believe that your perspective on this is shaped by a genuine belief in economic benefits. You've consistently espoused a worldview that is centred on keep Ireland Irish, and this latest is merely a facet of that.

I would love to see us leave the EU but I don't think it's necessary in this case. I would like to see our government approaching the EU commission and reminding them of the clause that PaulieD linked to earlier in the thread

Ah, the à la carte approach to EU membership. Let's take their structural funds, avail ourselves of the opportunity to live and work in any of the member states, milk the CAP for all we can get, take advantage of tariff-free trading, use ECB funds to bail out our banks. But let's slam our borders shut the minute there's any suggestion that we might have any concomitant obligations.

Do you not think there's a strong economic argument for restricting immigration now that our economy is losing so many jobs and we have so many people out of work?

I think there's an argument for it, ceteris paribus. There's an equal argument to be made for any isolationist, protectionist measure.

Balanced against that, there are excellent economic arguments for rejecting isolationism and protectionism. So no, on balance I don't think there's a strong argument for discriminating against our fellow EU citizens. Only a xenophobic one, which I reject out of hand.

opo

oscarBravo wrote: »

Oh, I'm sure there are people who harbour a deep dislike of large groups of foreigners, while justifying it to themselves on the grounds that they've nothing against any one given member of one of those groups.

You could some it up in a convenient phrase like, oh, let's say "some of my best friends are <insert nationality here>, but...".

I apologise for not responding to your entire meandering post but I am still intrigued with your deeply held conviction that immigration control is xenophobic or at best - appealing to xenophobes and therefore any real argument in favour is xenophobic.

I don't get this closeted logic to be honest no matter how you dress it up and parade your distaste of the strawman xenophobe endlessly. I'm sure it does something for you.

I am sure there is a very happy scenario in your mind where a million immigrants join us on the dole queues singing "We are the World" and we stick it to the "xenophobes" - (even if we are economically and environmentally destroyed).

oscarBravo

opo wrote: »

I apologise for not responding to your entire meandering post...

That's OK - you didn't actually respond to any of it; rather you created an internal caricature of it, and responded to that.

When you're ready to respond to what I actually said, feel free.

opo

oscarBravo wrote: »

That's OK - you didn't actually respond to any of it; rather you created an internal caricature of it, and responded to that.

When you're ready to respond to what I actually said, feel free.

I've made my point and felt just as free doing it as anyone else walking on proverbial eggshells.

Feel free not to respond.

Nodin

opo wrote: »

I am sure there is a very happy scenario in your mind where a million immigrants ......

Yep, and don't let the figures showing the dropping numbers affect your hyperbole.

opo

Nodin wrote: »

Yep, and don't let the figures showing the dropping numbers affect your hyperbole.

Do you think they would continue to fall if we swept away our borders entirely?

oscarBravo

opo wrote: »

Do you think they would continue to fall if we swept away our borders entirely?

And you have the neck to accuse me of introducing straw men? Bloody hell.

opo

oscarBravo wrote: »

And you have the neck to accuse me of introducing straw men? Bloody hell.

Explain......

Nodin

opo wrote: »

Do you think they would continue to fall if we swept away our borders entirely?

And what Fringe theatre did that comment escape from?

Has anyone on this thread suggested such a thing? If so, please quote and link back to the post.

oscarBravo

opo wrote: »

Explain......

What Nodin said. Please link to a post in this thread where someone advocated eliminating border controls completely.

opo

Nodin wrote: »

And what Fringe theatre did that comment escape from?

Has anyone on this thread suggested such a thing? If so, please quote and link back to the post.

Ok, perhaps not too fine tuned. Mea Culpa.

Do you think the numbers would continue to fall if we relaxed immigration restrictions on Countries - for example Bulgaria and Romania where economic disparities dictate current policy to a large extent? (or xenophobia depending on your pov).

opo

oscarBravo wrote: »

What Nodin said. QUOTE]

Bless.

Nodin

No idea. It's doubtful they'd bother coming en masse as theres nothing to come here for, really.

You do realise that people in general don't like having to emmigrate?