Denmark paying immigrants to go home

opo

Nodin wrote: »

No idea. It's doubtful they'd bother coming en masse as theres nothing to come here for, really.

Would free healthcare for example not be an attraction? Do you think there is no attraction for undesireable elements that might like a clean slate?

But, even taking your point - is the continuation of such restrictions - in your opinion - pragmatic and/or xenophobic?

PaulieD

Nodin wrote: »

You do realise that people in general don't like having to emmigrate?

So, generally speaking, people prefer to stick with what they know, right?

opo

PaulieD wrote: »

So, generally speaking, people prefer to stick with what they know, right?

Or even - who they know?

SWL

_Nuno_ wrote: »

And the Irish leaving the country are not leaving because of immigrants either, although I guess immigrants are a very nice/clean and easy scapegoat. They are leaving because they don't have good enough skills and/or qualifications to put them in a advantageous position in the job market.

I have no trouble finding a job here or in my homeland, and I am here because the people that brought me here could not find people with my skills available in Ireland when they needed. It may not be convenient to some to keep me here in the current economic climate, but unfortunately to you I am not cattle that you can dispose of when not needed.

Tough, isn't it?

Is that why you had to leave your country also, you didn't have the skills or education? Do you know anything about economics? More than likely looking for a reaction, since when were you appointed to access the skills & education of people.

If you can find employment at home then good for you, but maybe you could ease up on the smugness or glow of self importance and understand that there are plenty of Irish people educated and with the required skills on the dole, while that is not the fault of immigrants, its not theirs either, maybe you could show some class and understanding to people in a less fortunate situation than yours. You know the nation/ people that offered you and me opportunities.

I am beginning to think I am the only immigrant on boards who has a balanced view on Ireland and immigration, the vibe form your posts is basically I am legally here (which you are) and Ireland can go **** itself if they don’t like it - not very classy, if the particulars quoted in a reputable national paper are to be believed and I have no reason given the publication that they are false, I believe little of this sentiment has to do with unemployment more to do with an attitude problem or an inferiority complex among some immigrant communities presenting itself in an aggressive and racist manner, and completely disproportionate to anything they have experienced from Ireland.

Nodin

PaulieD wrote: »

So, generally speaking, people prefer to stick with what they know, right?

Attempting to squeeze an agenda in there, I'd say. People from other countries have friends and families too....

O'Morris

oscarBravo wrote:

The economy is a basket case:

And yet we continue to see thousands of foreign job-seekers entering the country applying for PPS numbers to work here.

I thought they were supposed to stop coming here once the jobs dried up? Isn't that what we were told all along?

oscarBravo wrote:

let's kick johnny foreigner out and give his job to someone on the dole (whether he wants it or not, or is qualified for it or not).

I never said anything about kicking Johhny Foreigner out. I think we should focus on reducing the number of people entering the country, not on forcibly removing the employed people who are here legally.

oscarBravo wrote:

With all due respect, I have no reason to believe that your perspective on this is shaped by a genuine belief in economic benefits. You've consistently espoused a worldview that is centred on keep Ireland Irish, and this latest is merely a facet of that.

That's correct, I want Ireland to still be an Irish country in a hundred years from now. I would still be as opposed to mass immigration into Ireland even if I believed that it wasn't in our economic interest to cut down on the numbers, just as people like you and djpbarry are now opposed to restrictions on immigration even though it's obvious that our economic interests are not being served by continuing to allow tens of thousands of foreign job-seekers enter the country at a time when we have hundreds of thousands of people out of work and we have a massive welfare bill that we need to reduce.

oscarBravo wrote:

But let's slam our borders shut the minute there's any suggestion that we might have any concomitant obligations.

What are you talking about? We've had our borders open for at least four years now. We were fulfilling our concomitant obligations as soon as the eastern Europeans were admitted to the EU, at a time when most other European countries kept their borders shut. Even though we had good reason over the last few years to invoke the safeguard clause in response to the massive, unplanned-for influx of low-wage workers from eastern Europe we still kept our heads down and continued on as good little-Euopeans. But now that we dare to point out that our economic recovery is not being helped by having an immigration rate that is still among the highest in Europe, we're suddenly ungrateful, xenophobic, little-Irelanders?

oscarBravo wrote:

I think there's an argument for it, ceteris paribus. There's an equal argument to be made for any isolationist, protectionist measure.

Balanced against that, there are excellent economic arguments for rejecting isolationism and protectionism.

If you have excellent economic arguments for us not attempting to reducing the number of job-seekers entering the country now that we have hundreds of thousands of people of work I'd be interesting in seeing it. Merely pointing to the existence of arguments for rejecting isolationism and protectionism is not good enough.

Nodin

O'Morris wrote: »

That's correct, I want Ireland to still be an Irish country in a hundred years from now. (snip)
.

So essentially you're motivated by some "nationalist" notion....Fascinating. Here we are, drowned in English language media, massively influenced by the 'anglo-saxon' world view, and you are worrying about immigrants.

K-9

The latest figures for PPS Numbers issues is here:
http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Topics/PPSN/Pages/ppsn_all_month09.aspx

Poland, the UK, Latvia, Lithuania, France, Brazil, Romania, Spain, the US, India are the top 10 countries with Germany, Italy, Hungary, Slovakia after them. The figures seemed to be dropping up to August, but have gone up again the last 2 months.

K-9

The 2008 figures are here:
http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Topics/PPSN/Pages/ppsn_all_month08.aspx

It has gone from about 156,000 last year to 70,000 in the 10 months of this year.

djpbarry

O'Morris wrote: »

I thought they were supposed to stop coming here once the jobs dried up? Isn't that what we were told all along?

I don’t believe so, no.

O'Morris wrote: »

I never said anything about kicking Johhny Foreigner out.

You want to see the non-Irish contingent of the population reduced? Am I right?

O'Morris wrote: »

I think we should focus on reducing the number of people entering the country...

Including British and Irish nationals?

O'Morris wrote: »

I would still be as opposed to mass immigration into Ireland even if I believed that it wasn't in our economic interest to cut down on the numbers, just as people like you and djpbarry are now opposed to restrictions on immigration...

I’m not opposed to restrictions on immigration per se, I’m opposed to restrictions on the free movement of people within the EU.

O'Morris wrote: »

But now that we dare to point out that our economic recovery is not being helped by having an immigration rate that is still among the highest in Europe, we're suddenly ungrateful, xenophobic, little-Irelanders?

Nail. Head.

Do I really need to point out that those immigration figures are estimates from some time in 2008?

O'Morris wrote: »

If you have excellent economic arguments for us not attempting to reducing the number of job-seekers entering the country now that we have hundreds of thousands of people of work I'd be interesting in seeing it.

I believe I have highlighted several in another thread which you have yet to reply to. But the most obvious one I can think of is that if we throw up our borders at the first sign of trouble (I’m not sure what that trouble is, but anyway) it’s hardly going to instil confidence in prospective employers, is it? After all, how many businesses in this country have an exclusively Irish workforce?

Mena

K-9 wrote: »

The 2008 figures are here:
http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Topics/PPSN/Pages/ppsn_all_month08.aspx

It has gone from about 156,000 last year to 70,000 in the 10 months of this year.

However, only 3497 new Work Permits have been granted so far in 2009. 3201 renewed 1586 refused and 239 withdrawn.

http://www.entemp.ie/labour/workpermits/statistics.htm

PaulieD

K-9 wrote: »

The latest figures for PPS Numbers issues is here:
http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Topics/PPSN/Pages/ppsn_all_month09.aspx

Poland, the UK, Latvia, Lithuania, France, Brazil, Romania, Spain, the US, India are the top 10 countries with Germany, Italy, Hungary, Slovakia after them. The figures seemed to be dropping up to August, but have gone up again the last 2 months.

So, the country is bankrupt, we have 450,000 on the scratcher, yet nearly as many immigrants applied for PPS numbers as Irish citizens. In 2006-2008 nearly as many Poles received PPS numbers as Irish citizens. Still they arrive, 400 a week. This is sheer madness.

K-9

Mena wrote: »

However, only 3497 new Work Permits have been granted so far in 2009. 3201 renewed 1586 refused and 239 withdrawn.

http://www.entemp.ie/labour/workpermits/statistics.htm

Indeed, a lot of the applications would be students.

PaulieD wrote: »

So, the country is bankrupt, we have 450,000 on the scratcher, yet nearly as many immigrants applied for PPS numbers as Irish citizens. In 2006-2008 nearly as many Poles received PPS numbers as Irish citizens. Still they arrive, 400 a week. This is sheer madness.

It has dropped from over 40 to probably 14/15 thousand this year. I know you'd prefer zero came but it's unlikely.

PaulieD

K-9 wrote: »

It has dropped from over 40 to probably 14/15 thousand this year. I know you'd prefer zero came but it's unlikely.

You know? There you go assuming again. I am well aware that Ireland needs to import some workers to fill some positions that we cannot fill from our own native workforce. But 70,000? No chance. Why the hell are they coming here? If they are applying for PPS numbers they must intend to stay for a period of time, however brief.

Is there any figures or estimates for the number of immigrants working in the black economy?

PaulieD

Mena wrote: »

However, only 3497 new Work Permits have been granted so far in 2009. 3201 renewed 1586 refused and 239 withdrawn.

http://www.entemp.ie/labour/workpermits/statistics.htm

Interesting to note the discrepancies between work permits and PPS numbers issued. Nearly 800 work permits were issued to Nigerians, yet only 100 work permits. In fact, more PPS numbers were issued to Nigerians this year alone, than work permits throught the existence of the scheme. How odd.

djpbarry

PaulieD wrote: »

In 2006-2008 nearly as many Poles received PPS numbers as Irish citizens.

How many entered the workforce? How many are still here?

PaulieD wrote: »

You know? There you go assuming again.

You’re one to go accusing others of making assumptions.

PaulieD wrote: »

I am well aware that Ireland needs to import some workers to fill some positions that we cannot fill from our own native workforce. But 70,000? No chance.

Inward migration is expected to be of the order of 57,000 this year, with emigration around the 60,000 mark. Next year, immigration is projected to drop down to around the 30,000 mark, with emigration heading for 70,000. We haven’t seen figures like those since the late 80’s and early 90’s, yet people are still throwing around the “mass immigration” line. The mind boggles.

PaulieD wrote: »

Nearly 800 work permits were issued to Nigerians, yet only 100 work permits. In fact, more PPS numbers were issued to Nigerians this year alone, than work permits throught the existence of the scheme. How odd.

Which only goes to show that PPS numbers are not a very reliable indicator of immigration, are they?

Flamed Diving

AcePuppetMaster wrote: »

Alas I think the days of the Irish warm welcome are over.:(

There is no problem with laying out the red carpet, once people don't use it to walk all over you.

I don't actually believe the intent behind what I said there, just thought I would toss it into the lion pit.

junder

Back in the 80's sinn fein put forward the idea of 'resettlement grants' as part of thier plan for a united ireland, they planned to give grants to those unionists who could not live in a united ireland to move to the main land, the idea was quickly and quielty dropped

PaulieD

Racism is on the rise apparently.:rolleyes:

“We have very little to show from the years of the Celtic Tiger. Our roads, transport system and banks are all in a mess but the one thing we have achieved is a vibrant multicultural society that has enriched our society,” he said.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/1126/1224259488680.html

Always the same old buzz words.

Bandit12

In hard economic times i'm actually surprised at if anything the lack of racism in Ireland.