Denmark paying immigrants to go home

Dannyboy83

irish_bob wrote: »

most but not all immigrants would not have been earning enough to be in the tax net so they would have given nothing to the state , add to the fact that the majority of eastern europeans sent most of thier wages home and lived ten to a 2 bed flat , they contributed little to the exchequer , the country owes them very little , this is not the case for all immigrants but a sizeable number

I was in a relationship with a Polish girl from 2004 to 2007.
I speak Polish and I must have met thousands of Poles.
It was generally 2 couples to a 2 bed flat

In all that time, I saw about 10 houses where there was 10 to a 2 bed flat.
Those guys were just builders, over here for the short term.
I never saw any of them eat a swan either:rolleyes:

If they're not earning enough to be in the tax net, I'm sure you'll agree that there is not much to send home, not after Rip Off Republic prices + vat.

This attitude of "owing them nothing" makes me laugh.
They were basically allowed in here to
(i) Pay rent
(ii) Drive down wages and make us more competitive - who benefited from this? The Irish employers, thats who.
(iii) Keep the boom going longer

PaulieD

djpbarry wrote: »

No you didn’t, you said we should just deport the unskilled variety. So if a hardworking ‘unskilled’ non-EU citizen happens to lose their job, they get kicked out, but a layabout with a degree can stay as long as they like? Flawless logic.

Once a non EU national loses their job, Id give them three months to find a new one. No joy, slan leat. Dermot Ahern is of a different opinion, unfortunately.

djpbarry wrote: »

I’m emigrating next year. It may surprise you to learn that I’m acting of my own free will, rather than being ‘exported’ by the state.

I wish you the best of luck. Unfortunately, you are the exception to the rule. Most Irish nationals planning to emigrate are forced to, due to the lack of job opportunities in their native land. Meanwhile, 60,000 odd PPS numbers were issued this year to foreigners.....

You couldnt make it up.

PaulieD

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I was in a relationship with a Polish girl from 2004 to 2007.
I speak Polish and I must have met thousands of Poles.
It was generally 2 couples to a 2 bed flat

In all that time, I saw about 10 houses where there was 10 to a 2 bed flat.
Those guys were just builders, over here for the short term.
I never saw any of them eat a swan either:rolleyes:

If they're not earning enough to be in the tax net, I'm sure you'll agree that there is not much to send home, not after Rip Off Republic prices + vat.

This attitude of "owing them nothing" makes me laugh.
They were basically allowed in here to
(i) Pay rent
(ii) Drive down wages and make us more competitive - who benefited from this? The Irish employers, thats who.
(iii) Keep the boom going longer

Anecdotal, I am sure your Polish and Lithuanian girldfriends were great people, but we do not owe them a thing. They were given an opportunity to earn ten fold what they would earn at home. They paid very little tax. According to the Irish Times, 38% of workers pay no PAYE. Immigrants would make up a large portion of that figure. Also, if your Polish girlfriend worked here for three years on 25,000 euro per annum, she would have only paid 2,200 in PRSI contributions. After eleven weeks on the dole she would become a burden on the state.

Also, Irish_bob is correct. The Poles send home 1.5 billion each year from Ireland. Thats a nice chunk of change, that the Irish economy could badly do with.

Last year, some €1.5 billion was sent to Poland from Ireland via the banking system.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2009/0502/1224245835556.html

herya

irish_bob wrote: »

add to the fact that the majority of eastern europeans sent most of thier wages home and lived ten to a 2 bed flat

You just have no clue. Try actually talking to some foreign (booo!) people once in a while, and maybe not exclusively bricklayers.

djpbarry

PaulieD wrote: »

Once a non EU national loses their job, Id give them three months to find a new one. No joy, slan leat.

Even if they've been here for, say, 20 years and have never once before been without employment?

PaulieD wrote: »

I wish you the best of luck. Unfortunately, you are the exception to the rule.

How do you know?

PaulieD wrote: »

Most Irish nationals planning to emigrate are forced to...

Forced by who? Once again, how could you possibly know their reasons? And anyway, how many Irish nationals have recently emigrated? You've done a head count have you?

Dannyboy83

PaulieD wrote: »

Anecdotal, I am sure your Polish and Lithuanian girldfriends were great people, but we do not owe them a thing. They were given an opportunity to earn ten fold what they would earn at home. They paid very little tax. According to the Irish Times, 38% of workers pay no PAYE. Immigrants would make up a large portion of that figure. Also, if your Polish girlfriend worked here for three years on 25,000 euro per annum, she would have only paid 2,200 in PRSI contributions. After eleven weeks on the dole she would become a burden on the state.

Also, Irish_bob is correct. The Poles send home 1.5 billion each year from Ireland. Thats a nice chunk of change, that the Irish economy could badly do with.

Last year, some €1.5 billion was sent to Poland from Ireland via the banking system.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2009/0502/1224245835556.html

I see.
So should the banks in Poland outlaw the AIB Polish subsidary?
If we're gonna play fair like?
I'm sure Poland could do with all that money too


Also, until early 2008, I didn't earn more than 25k per annum. (Graduated from Comp Sci in UCC in 2005, went straight to work, Had 2 jobs, never claimed the dole in my life)


Now I do considerably better and pay a fair whack of tax.
I'm confused, where does this leave me?

PaulieD

djpbarry wrote: »

Even if they've been here for, say, 20 years and have never once before been without employment?

They would be citizens now. What percentage of non EU citizens would have been resident in the country for longer than ten years? Very low, I would presume.

djpbarry wrote: »

How do you know?

From talking to people.

djpbarry wrote: »

Forced by who? Once again, how could you possibly know their reasons? And anyway, how many Irish nationals have recently emigrated? You've done a head count have you?

Watch tomorrows Prime Time report. It will give you a good insight into the reasons why Irish people are emigrating.

djpbarry

PaulieD wrote: »

Anecdotal, I am sure your Polish and Lithuanian girldfriends were great people, but we do not owe them a thing. They were given an opportunity to earn ten fold what they would earn at home. They paid very little tax.

How do you know?

PaulieD wrote: »

According to the Irish Times, 38% of workers pay no PAYE. Immigrants would make up a large portion of that figure.

How do you know?

PaulieD wrote: »

The Poles send home 1.5 billion each year from Ireland.

Do you actually think about this stuff before you post it? How many Poles are in Ireland? Let’s be generous and say 100,000. So you’re saying that the typical Pole in Ireland is sending home €15,000 per year, while working in a low-paid job and not paying any tax? Are you kidding?

bill_ashmount

dattley wrote: »

You're not reading what I posted.

Somebody above said that saying "You cannot come here because you're Indian/Pakistani" is not discrimination.

I said that it is.

Which sentence do you believe i'm struggling with?

Your struggling with the sentence above. It is not discrimination, it is what every single country in the world does. I cannot go and live in Pakistan tomorrow because I am not Pakistani, this is not discrimination, this is how a country protects it's borders. It is the law that every country in the world uses.

PaulieD

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I see.
So should the banks in Poland outlaw the AIB Polish subsidary?
If we're gonna play fair like?
I'm sure Poland could do with all that money too

A work permit scheme for future Polish immigrants would suffice. Cull the numbers, so to speak.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Also, until early 2008, I didn't earn more than 25k per annum. (Graduated from Comp Sci in UCC in 2005, went straight to work, Had 2 jobs, never claimed the dole in my life)

Well done.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Now I do considerably better and pay a fair whack of tax.
I'm confused, where does this leave me?

Ive no problem with Irish citizens claiming the dole if they have paid their fair share of contributions. After all, the dole is a safety net for Irish workers, unfortunately, it has become a fishing net for eastern europeans and sub sahran africans.

Dannyboy83

PaulieD wrote: »

Ive no problem with Irish citizens claiming the dole if they have paid their fair share of contributions. After all, the dole is a safety net for Irish workers, unfortunately, it has become a fishing net for eastern europeans and sub sahran africans.

So, since I'm paying a fair whack of tax and bailing out all those lazy Irish sitting on the dole, should I be entitled to a tax refund when they're back in work? deducted from their wages?

djpbarry

PaulieD wrote: »

They would be citizens now.

You sure about that? Suppose they were not a citizen. Reduce the 20-year figure down to any arbitrary figure you like.

PaulieD wrote: »

From talking to people.

You know my reasons for emigrating from talking to people?

OldJay

PaulieD wrote: »

A work permit scheme for future Polish immigrants would suffice. Cull the numbers, so to speak.

Illegal unless a precondition and as you know well no preconditions have ever been made. One of the tenets of a common market is freedom of mobility of labour.
The numbers augment and subside with the economy as is evident now during the current downturn/recession/call-it-what-you-will.

Nodin

I see the "warr aginst de forunurs" trundles on.....

Why don't you answer a few of djpbarrys questions there, PaulieD

PaulieD

djpbarry wrote: »

How do you know?

Having previously worked with literally thousands of foreigners. 90% of whom, worked in low skilled jobs.

djpbarry wrote: »

How do you know?

Sweet Jesus. Do we actually live in the same city?

djpbarry wrote: »

Do you actually think about this stuff before you post it? How many Poles are in Ireland? Let’s be generous and say 100,000. So you’re saying that the typical Pole in Ireland is sending home €15,000 per year, while working in a low-paid job and not paying any tax? Are you kidding?

They are not my figures. They are the banks, take it up with them if you disagree.

The Minister of Integration claimed that there were 200,000 Poles living here. Nearly 400,000 Poles acquired a PPS number over the last five years. There are a lot more than 100,000 Poles in Ireland.

OldJay

djpbarry wrote: »

Even if they've been here for, say, 20 years and have never once before been without employment?
How do you know?
Forced by who? Once again, how could you possibly know their reasons? And anyway, how many Irish nationals have recently emigrated? You've done a head count have you?

Probably heard in a cab or from a bloke down the pub so therefore must be true.

Dannyboy83

PaulieD, for the record, I don't disagree about sub-saharan africans, Russians, Ukranians, Georgians, Swiss, Americans, Canadians.

Only about EU citizens.

We can't have it one way when it suits us and then another when it doesn't.

PaulieD

Justind wrote: »

Probably heard in a cab or from a bloke down the pub so therefore must be true.

AIB and the Bank of Ireland actually. I did post a link.

For your benefit,

Last year, some €1.5 billion was sent to Poland from Ireland via the banking system, a figure significantly higher than the value of trade between the two countries, which is about €1.2 billion.
“Whenever I’m asked what’s the most important link between Ireland and Poland, apart from the European Union, of course, I point to this amount of money,” Szumowski says. “Extraordinary amounts of money.”

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2009/0502/1224245835556.html

PaulieD

Justind wrote: »

Illegal unless a precondition and as you know well no preconditions have ever been made. One of the tenets of a common market is freedom of mobility of labour.
The numbers augment and subside with the economy as is evident now during the current downturn/recession/call-it-what-you-will.

Wrong. We can put our case forward in Brussels for implementing a work permit scheme for accession state nationals. Similar to Austria and Germany.

iv) safeguard clause (paragraph 7)

If an old Member State stops using national law measures and moves to free movement of workers under Community law, there is a possibility to re-impose restrictions if there are serious disturbances on the labour market, or the threat thereof. These "safeguard" clauses have always featured in accession Treaties, but have never been invoked. Therefore the Commission has no practical experience in their operation. However, it is clear that the Commission would expect a Member State to put forward convincing proof of a high level of disturbance on the labour market, in order to justify seeking to re-impose a restriction on free movement of workers, one of the four fundamental freedoms under the EC Treaty*. This same comment will apply to the use of the safeguard clause as between the new Member States (under paragraph 11).

herya

PaulieD wrote: »

AIB and the Bank of Ireland actually. I did post a link.[/URL]

FYI many non-nationals I know including myself keep part of their spending money in their foreign accounts - simply because the cards given to these accounts are widely recognised (unlike laser cards) so you can pay for stuff online, pay in the shops and even take money out of ATMs with no fee. Some banks in Poland even offer dual accounts run in euro as well as in zloty which is very handy indeed. I must have "transferred" loads of money this way but it was still spent in exactly the same way it would be if I kept it in my Irish account.

Plus if you need to keep your savings somewhere, which banking system is stable now huh?

JonathanAnon

O'Morris wrote: »

What does it say about the joys of multiculturalism when the government of a liberal, Scandinavian country is prepared to spend a million kroner to get 10 non-European immigrants to return home?

Joys of Multiculturalism? This is a myth. We only need to look across the Irish Sea to understand that mixing very dissimilar cultures does not work. You end up with ghettos and race riots. This is not racist, this is a observation.

If we could target those immigrants who a) have no interest in Ireland bar what they can get out of it i.e. welfare, child benefits etc b) have no interest in conforming to our ways of life or c) contribute nothing to our society, then I would be in favour of a similar measure being introduced here.

But being state run, I'm sure it would be hugely abused and a fkn disaster even if it was brought in.

PaulieD

herya wrote: »

Plus if you need to keep your savings somewhere, which banking system is stable now huh?

The figures are from 2007, the banks were relatively stable then.

Rev. BlueJeans

Overheal wrote: »

that shipped sailed years ago. in the last while of my stay i was constantly treated guilty until proven innocent by immigration and the gardai i had to meet with to certify my visas. Of course it always seemed two-faced to me, given every march Ireland demands more rights for Irish Immigrants in the US.

Bit like dealing with the Dept. of Homeland Security, then. No offence.

xmcp

how about we pay men and ugly women to go home but keep the hot polish and chinese girls. could work

herya

xmcp wrote: »

how about we pay men and ugly women to go home but keep the hot polish and chinese girls. could work

Wow it took 6 pages for this to appear! That's how we know we're not in After Hours

AcePuppetMaster

herya wrote: »

Wow it took 6 pages for this to appear! That's how we know we're not in After Hours

Sad to say it but he's making as much sense as others here.

Joking aside, I can't belive 60k PPS numbers were issued this year or that 1.5b was sent back to Poland (.3b greater than our exports)! These are mental figures.

As bad as things are, there will always be people from other countires who see it as better circumstances than where their from. The Irish did it, the Indians did it, the Polish did it etc, etc. We can't blame them tbh.

However, I think spending 10k on an immigrant to go back home and not come back is ludicrous. Sure 10k is cheaper than 2years on the dole, but we don't have the money in the coffers to pay them! Even if we did, wouldn't that make an exodus of immigrants flooding our shores to avail of this offer? Effectively sweetening the pie? How many PPS no's would we be handing out then?

I don't know why this is being turned into an immigrant issue anyways (not talking about the thread, but the Danes' and some who contributed to this thread). Surely a collective problem is the number of people we have on the live register?

We should get our value out of them all. Let them contribute to our society in any way that they can. Clean the streets, make things whatever.

AcePuppetMaster

JonathanAnon wrote: »

...If we could target those immigrants who a) have no interest in Ireland bar what they can get out of it i.e. welfare, child benefits etc b) have no interest in conforming to our ways of life or c) contribute nothing to our society, then I would be in favour of a similar measure being introduced here...

If we could target those immigrants who a) have no interest in Ireland bar what they can get out of it i.e. welfare, child benefits etc b) have no interest in conforming to our ways of life or c) contribute nothing to our society...

AlekSmart

Herya said:

The original culture will dominate and other cultures will be complementary or even marginal but still present.

All very true IF the original indiginous or dominant culture is accepted as such,however the current "multicultural" ethos in the UK and Ireland appears to revolve around the active diminution of the Native cultures by means such as the enforced teaching of foreign languages such as Hindi or Farsi and the equally fierce determination to secure status for what are often sects rather than religions as such.

One of the main reasons for this fiercely staunch approach is the full blown refusal of most of the African and Mid East cultures to have the "likes of us about the place" in their own cultural make up.

As PaulieD posted.....

AIB and the Bank of Ireland actually. .

For your benefit,

Last year, some €1.5 billion was sent to Poland from Ireland via the banking system, a figure significantly higher than the value of trade between the two countries, which is about €1.2 billion.
“Whenever I’m asked what’s the most important link between Ireland and Poland, apart from the European Union, of course, I point to this amount of money,” Szumowski says. “Extraordinary amounts of money.”

Something that I have long pondered is the Western Union type cash-transfer operations,what form of accountancy regulation are they subject to and are they answerable to any of our "Regulatory" authorities.......(Please don`t Laugh out Loud....)

Memnoch

bill_ashmount wrote: »

Your struggling with the sentence above. It is not discrimination, it is what every single country in the world does. I cannot go and live in Pakistan tomorrow because I am not Pakistani, this is not discrimination, this is how a country protects it's borders. It is the law that every country in the world uses.

All forms of discrimination and division amongst peoples have been legal at some point in human history. And as we continue to expand our knowledge and boundaries I'm sure we'll find new ways to divide "us" from "them," and justify the actions as necessary and practical.

Memnoch

JonathanAnon wrote: »

Joys of Multiculturalism? This is a myth. We only need to look across the Irish Sea to understand that mixing very dissimilar cultures does not work. You end up with ghettos and race riots. This is not racist, this is a observation.

If we could target those immigrants who a) have no interest in Ireland bar what they can get out of it i.e. welfare, child benefits etc b) have no interest in conforming to our ways of life or c) contribute nothing to our society, then I would be in favour of a similar measure being introduced here.

But being state run, I'm sure it would be hugely abused and a fkn disaster even if it was brought in.

Blaming ghettos and race riots on multicultralism and ignoring the real underlying causes such as social deprivation, social divisions based on class/wealth, lack of education/opportunity and ignorance (on both sides) is racist. You only ignore everything else by assuming that multiculturalism is the problem.

What are "our ways of life," anyway? This is like the "britishness" arguement all over again. Please define "our ways of life,"/"irishness."