Denmark paying immigrants to go home

starbelgrade

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Liberal pandering nonsense. I'm liberalbut you're going outofyour way to defend non-nationals just for the sake of it

Pandering to who exactly? I am entitled to my opinion & I am equally entitled to express it.

starbelgrade

johnathan woss wrote: »

Does this mean that the oft-quoted on here "fact" that immigrants have to have been working for 2 years in ireland in order to get the full dole is false? Anybody?

Is the line that we essentially pay twice the dole to immigrants than france, Germany and Spain true? Can anyone disprove that one?

These are genuine questions I honestly don't know.
But if the above is true then we are getting the p1ss taken out of us, I know that much.

I don't know if the "facts" or figures here are true or not, but if they are, it doesn't mean that we are having the p*ss taken out of us - it means we are willing let the p*ss be taken out of us. There is a difference.

The social welfare system here needs a vast overhaul - it is outdated, wide open to fraud & in many cases provides little or nothing to those who need it & who have paid into it.

There may well be problems with immigrants & state benefits, but surely this is a seperate debate entirely from the immigration debate.

K-9

johnathan woss wrote: »

Does this mean that the oft-quoted on here "fact" that immigrants have to have been working for 2 years in ireland in order to get the full dole is false? Anybody?

Is the line that we essentially pay twice the dole to immigrants than france, Germany and Spain true? Can anyone disprove that one?

These are genuine questions I honestly don't know.
But if the above is true then we are getting the p1ss taken out of us, I know that much.

It's a letter to the Business post by Joe Soap.

I don't believe it's 40%, I think it's 20% from memory.

If our SW rates are double France, Germany and Spain it says a lot about our SW rates!

K-9

13,521 Non EU
42,465 Accession states
4,271 EU15 less Ireland & UK
18,224 UK

78,481 Total

345,158 Irish Nationals.

How he got 40% I don't know.

http://www.cso.ie/px/pxeirestat/Dialog/varval.asp?ma=LRM09&ti=Persons+on+the+Live+Register+%28Number%29+by+Month+and+Nationality&path=../Database/Eirestat/Live%20Register/&lang=1

PaulieD

K-9 wrote: »

13,521 Non EU
42,465 Accession states
4,271 EU15 less Ireland & UK
18,224 UK

78,481 Total

345,158 Irish Nationals.



How he got 40% I don't know.

http://www.cso.ie/px/pxeirestat/Dialog/varval.asp?ma=LRM09&ti=Persons+on+the+Live+Register+%28Number%29+by+Month+and+Nationality&path=../Database/Eirestat/Live%20Register/&lang=1

Theres more to social welfare payments than JA/JB.

I read Richard Lyons article were he claims the eastern europeans have been a benefit to the economy. His figures are wrong.

42,465 x 204 x 52= 450,468,720 euro. So hes a good 100 million off for for starters.

How about Mr Lyons gives the full facts. He fails to include the cost of child benefit, housing allowances, medical card, back to school allowance, education grants etc. Rather conveinent that.

Also, remember that the eastern europeans employed could easily be replaced by Irish people on the dole so you would have to add in the cost of paying the dole to the same number of Irish for each and every eastern european employed. They are costing the state a tidy sum.

PaulieD

starbelgrade wrote: »

There may well be problems with immigrants & state benefits, but surely this is a seperate debate entirely from the immigration debate.

Yes, when one debates immigration one must only discuss the benefits.

starbelgrade

PaulieD wrote: »

Yes, when one debates immigration one must only discuss the benefits.

The law according to PaulieD.

PaulieD

starbelgrade wrote: »

Do you have a problem with immigrants full stop, or just those claiming state benefits?

Our countries immigration policies(sic).

starbelgrade wrote: »

To me, it's no coincidence that when times are hard, the racist element starts to grow worse.. like the "British Jobs for British People" marches in the UK back in February.

We dont have to look to the UK, heres an opinion poll carried out in Ireland fourteen months ago. Each and every opinion poll carried out since 2005 has shown that the majority of Irish people want further restrictions put on immigration.

ALMOST TWO-THIRDS of adults in the State believe immigration policy should be made more restrictive given the worsening economic outlook, according to an opinion poll to be published today.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2008/0910/1220919678623.html

starbelgrade wrote: »

Sure, it was all grand when times were good - we had the "Blacks in the Jacks" & "The Poles in the Holes" doing all the "menial" jobs that no-one else wanted at the time, but now when even those jobs are seen as an income, we "want them back".

Another myth. I worked part time during my schoold days in one of Dublins biggest petrol station. All the staff where Irish, bar two South African managers. From deli assistant to car washers, all were Irish. This was in 2001-2003. Its funny how the Irish people suddenly became lazy, it is even more amazing that it conveniently coincided with mass immigration from eastern europe. We carried out these jobs ourselves before the eastern europeans arrived en masse. We will carry them out ourselves once again when they leave.

starbelgrade wrote: »

I'm not surprised that a lot of Nigerians were on the dole - not many people would employ them, even during the boom, but even these days, if you want a taxi at 6am in Dublin City, you'll be almost guaranteed that the driver will be a non-national & not a Dub, who's more content doing the social hour shifts & complaining about not earning enough.

It doesnt surprise you that 62% of Nigerians are unemployed? Do you really think we need to import taxi drivers from Nigeria?

starbelgrade wrote: »

It also doesn't surprise me that emmigrants are more likely to commit dole fraud - sure why wouldn't they - the system is wide open to abuse & it's easy money. But is this an argument for sorting out the social welfare system or is it one for closing the borders? It depends very much which side of the fence you sit on.

They have a moral obligation not to rip off the state that has given them an opportunity of a better life. Let us not forget that Ireland was one of the only countries, along with the UK and Sweden, to open our borders to the accession states. They sure are a grateful bunch.

starbelgrade wrote: »

You can use facts & figures to prove anything and you can pick & choose whichever ones you like, but you can also avoid the real issues by doing so & you can also mask an underlying racist train of thought under them too.

And out comes the race card.

Mr.Micro

starbelgrade wrote: »

I don't know if the "facts" or figures here are true or not, but if they are, it doesn't mean that we are having the p*ss taken out of us - it means we are willing let the p*ss be taken out of us. There is a difference.

The social welfare system here needs a vast overhaul - it is outdated, wide open to fraud & in many cases provides little or nothing to those who need it & who have paid into it.

There may well be problems with immigrants & state benefits, but surely this is a seperate debate entirely from the immigration debate.

Quite right. Too many times immigrants and benefit fraud are equated. Look at Fas, TDs expenses, Nama and the banks, CIE, and several other cozy cartels that exist in Ireland and then people can start on the benefit system. its just an excuse to begrudge people benefits just because the are non national. Like any system its not perfect it will have its fraudulent claimants etc but the most I will bet are bono fide .

K-9

PaulieD wrote: »

Theres more to social welfare payments than JA/JB.

I read Richard Lyons article were he claims the eastern europeans have been a benefit to the economy. His figures are wrong.

42,465 x 204 x 52= 450,468,720 euro. So hes a good 100 million off for for starters.

How about Mr Lyons gives the full facts. He fails to include the cost of child benefit, housing allowances, medical card, back to school allowance, education grants etc. Rather conveinent that.

Also, remember that the eastern europeans employed could easily be replaced by Irish people on the dole so you would have to add in the cost of paying the dole to the same number of Irish for each and every eastern european employed. They are costing the state a tidy sum.

Yep, the same payments Irish people get.

You now not only want to stop Immigrants claiming, you also want to sack Immigrant workers.

PaulieD

K-9 wrote: »

You now not only want to stop Immigrants claiming, you also want to sack Immigrant workers.

Please stop putting words in my mouth.

Nodin

PaulieD wrote: »

Please stop putting words in my mouth.

Anyone just has to look at your sig to see whats driving you, I'm afraid.

K-9

PaulieD wrote: »

Please stop putting words in my mouth.

You see Immigrant workers as costing the taxpayer money. Sending them home is the obvious solution as they'll claim too much if they go on SW.

PaulieD

Nodin wrote: »

Anyone just has to look at your sig to see whats driving you, I'm afraid.

Which I already explained to you.....

Nodin wrote: »

You see Immigrant workers as costing the taxpayer money. Sending them home is the obvious solution as they'll claim too much if they go on SW.

No, a moratoriumm on immigration for the for see able future would be an obvious solution. Too obvious, it seems.

starbelgrade

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Quite right. Too many times immigrants and benefit fraud are equated. Look at Fas, TDs expenses, Nama and the banks, CIE, and several other cozy cartels that exist in Ireland and then people can start on the benefit system. its just an excuse to begrudge people benefits just because the are non national. Like any system its not perfect it will have its fraudulent claimants etc but the most I will bet are bono fide .

Yep - but it's a whole lot easier to blame Johnny Foreigner.

PaulieD

starbelgrade wrote: »

Yep - but it's a whole lot easier to blame Johnny Foreigner.

Nama, Fas, mass immigration all the same to me. The same people are getting screwed over by them all, the average Irish worker.

starbelgrade

PaulieD wrote: »

Nama, Fas, mass immigration all the same to me. The same people are getting screwed over by them all, the average Irish worker.

And what makes up the average Irish worker these days? The Nigerian taximan? The Polish pump attendant? The Latvian doorman? Or the male white, overpaid banker? Sometimes you got to realise that diversity is something not to be feared, opressed or hated.. the world is full of people who are your brothers & sisters. Some less well off, some better off.. but it's not the people that you should hate - it is the systems & the politics that inform your hatred that should be addressed.

K-9

PaulieD wrote: »

Nama, Fas, mass immigration all the same to me. The same people are getting screwed over by them all, the average Irish worker.

Benchmarking and Unions as well.

PaulieD

starbelgrade wrote: »

the world is full of people who are your brothers & sisters. Some less well off, some better off.. but it's not the people that you should hate - it is the systems & the politics that inform your hatred that should be addressed.

Right...... back to the real world.

Does Ireland have an infinite capacity to absorb immigrants? In your opinion, how many more of my brothers and sisters should be allowed enter the Irish state?

starbelgrade

PaulieD wrote: »

Right...... back to the real world.

Does Ireland have an infinite capacity to absorb immigrants? In your opinion, how many more of my brothers and sisters should be allowed enter the Irish state?

How long is a piece of string?

PaulieD

starbelgrade wrote: »

How long is a piece of string?

Please give me a ball park figure to my question.

starbelgrade

PaulieD wrote: »

Please give me a ball park figure to my question.

3 metres. Of string.

johnathan woss

starbelgrade I'll ask a question that you may feel easier to answer;

what do you think is an ideal population for Ireland (the Republic) ?

deadhead13

There is only one Irish political party I know of that would support such a move here - the Immigration Control Platform. Their candidate didn't exactly get a resounding mandate in the local elections.

OldJay

PaulieD wrote: »

Nama, Fas, mass immigration all the same to me. The same people are getting screwed over by them all, the average Irish worker.

The average Irish worker? If someone who has settled here works, pays taxes, sends their children to school in the community etc . . . just when do you give them the illustrious title of "the average Irish worker"?

OldJay

PaulieD wrote: »

Nama, Fas, mass immigration all the same to me

Thats your problem, particularly with melodramatic 'qualifications' such as "mass" when discussing immigration.

djpbarry

johnathan woss wrote: »

Does this mean that the oft-quoted on here "fact" that immigrants have to have been working for 2 years in ireland in order to get the full dole is false?

You need two years’ worth of social security ‘credits’, yes, but you can transfer contributions earned abroad. In such an event, the country in which those credits were earned makes a proportional contribution to your social welfare.

djpbarry

PaulieD wrote: »

Also, remember that the eastern europeans employed could easily be replaced by Irish people on the dole…

Really? Well then, I shall inform my Bulgarian colleague immediately that her services are no longer required as you are aware of someone on the dole who is better equipped to conduct research into HPV gene expression than she is. Could you please forward the contact details of the relevant individual?

PaulieD wrote: »

Each and every opinion poll carried out since 2005 has shown that the majority of Irish people want further restrictions put on immigration.

Further restrictions were applied earlier this year – it is now even more difficult than before for non-EU/EEA nationals to secure a work permit.

PaulieD wrote: »

It doesnt surprise you that 62% of Nigerians are unemployed?

No, it doesn’t, because it’s not true.

PaulieD wrote: »

No, a moratoriumm on immigration for the for see able future would be an obvious solution. Too obvious, it seems.

Just what we need to inspire confidence in our economy and demonstrate to the business leaders of the world that Ireland is well and truly open for business!

PaulieD wrote: »

Does Ireland have an infinite capacity to absorb immigrants?

No. Which is probably why we are experiencing net emigration at present.

Any chance you could answer some of my earlier questions?

johnathan woss

djpbarry wrote: »

You need two years’ worth of social security ‘credits’, yes, but you can transfer contributions earned abroad. In such an event, the country in which those credits were earned makes a proportional contribution to your social welfare.

Ok so how does it work if a person works for 23 months in poland, 1 month here and is then sacked.
They would receive the Irish social welfare payment, yes?

I doubt very very much that the Polish government would pay 23/24 of the Irish social welfare payment in this hypothetical scenario, so how does it work?

Would the Polish government contribute to this hypothetical person's child benefits and other benefits ?

Dr_Phil

johnathan woss wrote: »

Ok so how does it work if a person works for 23 months in poland

Why Poland again? Is this some sort of obsession on Boards, pure ignorance or simply lack of knowledge of other european countries?

No offence, I'm just curious.

johnathan woss

Dr_Phil wrote: »

Why Poland again? Is this some sort of obsession on Boards, pure ignorance or simply lack of knowledge of other european countries?

No offence, I'm just curious.

Why so sensitive ?

How about you insert *any EU country* for Poland and answer my questions ?

Nodin

johnathan woss wrote: »

Why so sensitive ?

How about you insert *any EU country* for Poland and answer my questions ?

What exactly is the point of going through all the EU countries?
Do you wait till you see a system you like and then say 'Look!!! They do it that way, so we're wrong to do it our way !!!!!!!'?

Dr_Phil

johnathan woss wrote: »

Why so sensitive ?

Sensitive? Not at all. Just curious as I said. Honestly I couldn't care less what you think about Poland... Just repetitiveness of this narrowminded scheme Problems=Immigration=Foreigners=Non Nationals=Eastern Europe=Poland is quite dull and ... seems a bit stupid to me.

johnathan woss

I used Poland as an example because the Polish are the largest group from the accession states that are here. That seems a logical thing to do to me.

Anyway, can anybody clarify how much the Polish government would contribute in my example ?

opo

deadhead13 wrote: »

There is only one Irish political party I know of that would support such a move here - the Immigration Control Platform. Their candidate didn't exactly get a resounding mandate in the local elections.

What kind of a mandate do you think the loony tunes RAR style candidates would get if they even had the bottle to put their policies and people to public vote?

PaulieD

Dr_Phil wrote: »

Why Poland again? Is this some sort of obsession on Boards, pure ignorance or simply lack of knowledge of other european countries?

No offence, I'm just curious.

Curious> Its the sheer number of Poles who have landed on our shores over the past five year.

In a small ickle island like Ireland, its kind of noticeable. :rolleyes:

Liam Byrne

starbelgrade wrote: »

I wish someone would pay me to leave Ireland.

No such luck; the Fianna Failure version is that they pay the banks with your money so that you can't afford to leave.....EVER!!!!!

Dr_Phil

PaulieD wrote: »

Curious> Its the sheer number of Poles who have landed on our shores over the past five year.

In a small ickle island like Ireland, its kind of noticeable. :rolleyes:

Kind of noticable is that 90% people wouldn't have a damn clue of what EE country the person is from. As an average, for 3/4/5 eastern europeans I'm passing by on the street only 1 speeks Polish - the rest seem to be from Slovakia, Romania, Lithuania, etc. I understand that they are all "Polish" and that's why I asked if isn't it a bit ignorant to brand them all Polish. Same with the opposite (which - believe me - happens on regular basis in EE countries):

- "I live in Dublin, Ireland"
- "And how are you getting on there in England?"

But fair enough, I asked and got the answer that makes sense. Cheers.

deadhead13

opo wrote: »

What kind of a mandate do you think the loony tunes RAR style candidates would get if they even had the bottle to put their policies and people to public vote?

I don't know, who are the "loony tunes RAR style candidates"?

opo

deadhead13 wrote: »

I don't know, who are the "loony tunes RAR style candidates"?

To condense - racism obsessed - open borders advocates.

PCDave

I really get annoyed when I hear stories on the radio of social welfare fraud which, in my opinion, makes a lot of Irish people tar all immigrants,unfairly, with the same brush. I have absolutely no problem with someone coming to Ireland to work, what i do have a problem with is someone over here for our fantastic social welfare system. If our social welfare system worked aswell as our revenue system works could you imagine the amount of money we'd save.
I never understood why they don't clamp down on social welfare fraud as hard as they do on tax evasion.It's really just a case of trying to get as much as you can from the social welfare by hook or by crrok and if youre caught then "what the heck, we gave it a go anyway".
I'm from Tralee and know of a case where a single mother of multiple children was given an ex-bank managers house as her free social welfare house,I mean guys, where are we going when we are at this stage.
I don't care what anyone says, it is not everyone's constitutional right to a free house.How about you don't move out of home and move in with your boyfriend, how about you pratcice birth control and not get pregnant? Any woman can get pregnant by accident, I totally accept that but if it is constantly happening to you then I'm sorry, you're responsible, not the irish tax payer, I have enough to be paying for without your family too.
I'm married and have one kid and my wife an I have to think of the costs of having a second child.We have mortgage and bills to pay like everyone on the the social welfare excpet we have to go out and work our 50 hours a week in order to make ends meet.
SF were protesting on the streets of Tralee last Saturday handing out flyers on how unfair it was that people on long term unemployment are being hard done by, by not getting the "double" payment for Christmas week.I thought to myself, if they put half as much effort into finding a job as they do protesting then they might be better off.
I think people should be told when signing on that they have 1 year to find a job and after that they are cut off,there is absolutely no incentives to going back to work. If people were asked to join teams to tidy the town for the tidy towns competition or some other worth while activity they may have more respect for the place in which they live. Why is it so absurd that people should have to work to earn their dole payments?

Nodin

opo wrote: »

To condense - racism obsessed - open borders advocates.

Really? - You wouldn't have a link to their policies would you?

opo

Nodin wrote: »

Really? - You wouldn't have a link to their policies would you?

None that you can't find.

Nodin

opo wrote: »

None that you can't find.

I can't find anything about "open borders" so obviously you're one up on me. Would you care to link to it?

opo

Nodin wrote: »

I can't find anything about "open borders" so obviously you're one up on me. Would you care to link to it?

Yes dear.

KindOfIrish

PaulieD wrote: »

Right...... back to the real world.

Does Ireland have an infinite capacity to absorb immigrants? In your opinion, how many more of my brothers and sisters should be allowed enter the Irish state?

Polish, Latvians, Lithuanians etc are not really immigrants. They are all Europeans as we are. They just moving around Europe and have unquestionable right to do it (as we Irish have).
As those from outside EU there are not so many of them here compare to another EU countries.
Regards social welfare fraud: 70% cases contributed by our "brothers and sisters" from the North in the border counties!

K-9

KindOfIrish wrote: »

Regards social welfare fraud: 70% cases contributed by our "brothers and sisters" from the North in the border counties!

Not sure about 70% but there is a lot of it going on in Border areas.

Customs and Revenue where setting up checkpoints a few months back on people leaving SW offices and crossing the border. It was a win, win situation for them as the same Northerners claiming SW in the South usually drive Northern cars! So, if they claimed they lived in the South, VRT please!

PaulieD

KindOfIrish wrote: »

Polish, Latvians, Lithuanians etc are not really immigrants.

They are economic migrants.

KindOfIrish wrote: »

They are all Europeans as we are.

True, but they are still economic migrants. They are not Irish citizens.

KindOfIrish wrote: »

They just moving around Europe and have unquestionable right to do it (as we Irish have).

No, no they do not have unquestionable right to do it. Germany and Austria still imposes restrictions on the accession states citizens.

KindOfIrish wrote: »

As those from outside EU there are not so many of them here compare to another EU countries.

Not true.

KindOfIrish wrote: »

Regards social welfare fraud: 70% cases contributed by our "brothers and sisters" from the North in the border counties!

You will provide a link, wont you KindOfIrish? I kind of dont believe you.

starbelgrade

johnathan woss wrote: »

starbelgrade I'll ask a question that you may feel easier to answer;

what do you think is an ideal population for Ireland (the Republic) ?

I could pick a figure, but it would be irrelevant. My point is not that immigration should not be controlled - or in the very least, discussed. My point is that it should be done so without bringing into the debate who is or who is not "sponging" off the state. That is a different debate altogether.

If you want to skew it even further by introducing an "ideal population" for the Republic - where do you stop? Do you limit families to the number of children they have?

Or do you debate the real issues?

PaulieD

Ireland seems to be doing the same.

A spokeswoman told the Observer this weekend that the scheme will only apply to non-EU nationals living in the Republic and would involve the department spending almost €600,000 this year to pay for immigrants and their families to return to nations outside the European Union.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/nov/15/ireland-pay-immigrants-go-home

I wish them a safe journey home. Lets hope we close the door, to unskilled immigrants wishing to enter the state too. However this paragraph caught my eye, especially the text in bold.....




However, according to the Republic's central statistics office, about 18% of Ireland's inhabitants are now non-nationals.
Most of them are from eastern Europe, China, Brazil and west Africa or are British citizens who have settled on the island.
Some academics, such as Dr Bryan Fanning of University College Dublin, estimate that the real figure is more than 20%, meaning Ireland's "foreign" citizens make up over one fifth of the Republic's entire population.