Denmark paying immigrants to go home

starbelgrade

JonathanAnon wrote: »

Joys of Multiculturalism? This is a myth. We only need to look across the Irish Sea to understand that mixing very dissimilar cultures does not work. You end up with ghettos and race riots. This is not racist, this is a observation.

If we could target those immigrants who a) have no interest in Ireland bar what they can get out of it i.e. welfare, child benefits etc b) have no interest in conforming to our ways of life or c) contribute nothing to our society, then I would be in favour of a similar measure being introduced here.

But being state run, I'm sure it would be hugely abused and a fkn disaster even if it was brought in.

Alf Garnett is alive and well, I see.

PaulieD

starbelgrade wrote: »

Alf Garnett is alive and well, I see.

He is? Good stuff, get him to do a Christmas special, will you.;)

OldJay

JonathanAnon wrote: »

If we could target those immigrants who a) have no interest in Ireland bar what they can get out of it i.e. welfare, child benefits etc b) have no interest in conforming to our ways of life or c) contribute nothing to our society, then I would be in favour of a similar measure being introduced here

Apart from possibly avoiding pub culture (if they do avoid it), what way do you feel that 'immigrants' "have no interest in conforming to our ways of life" or "contribute nothing to our society".

The only obligation a migrant settling in Ireland should have is the will to learn English if this has not been grasped already. After that, provided they pay their taxes and contributions, they, like any Irish national, can do what they bloody well like.

If you bother replying, please refrain from mixing 'immigrants' up with 'illegal immigrants' and 'asylum seekers'.

The worst migrants I have ever witnessed regarding 'assimilation' are the Irish and British, by the way. The worst bludgers in Ireland, in my view, are the Irish.

djpbarry

PaulieD wrote: »

Having previously worked with literally thousands of foreigners. 90% of whom, worked in low skilled jobs.

Sweet Jesus. Do we actually live in the same city?

So your evidence is purely anecdotal? That’s what I thought.

PaulieD wrote: »

They are not my figures. They are the banks, take it up with them if you disagree.

How about you just answer the question? You’re claiming that most Poles work in low-paid jobs (and consequently pay very little tax), but they still manage to send home €15k per year? Care to tell us how that adds up?

PaulieD wrote: »

The Minister of Integration claimed that there were 200,000 Poles living here.

Oh well, if Kebabs Lenihan said it...

PaulieD wrote: »

Nearly 400,000 Poles acquired a PPS number over the last five years.

Are they all still here?

PaulieD wrote: »

There are a lot more than 100,000 Poles in Ireland.

Prove it.

O'Morris

Memnoch wrote:

Blaming ghettos and race riots on multicultralism and ignoring the real underlying causes such as social deprivation, social divisions based on class/wealth, lack of education/opportunity and ignorance (on both sides) is racist. You only ignore everything else by assuming that multiculturalism is the problem.

You could hardly claim that social deprivation is the main factor in the formation of ghettos or in provoking riots when there are plenty of places in the world that have high levels of poverty and yet have very few ghettos or race riots.

Parts of Dublin and Limerick have levels of poverty and social deprivation that are among the worst in western Europe and yet you don't see the same kinds of powder-keg tensions behind groups of people that you see between ethnic minorities and the majority population in even the most socially egalitarian Scandinavian countries. It's not the working-class attacking the middle class or the ignorant attacking the educated in Belfast or Glasgow or Paris or in the towns of northern England. Whenever you see large-scale urban violence, the cause is almost always due to ethnic tensions between the descendants of immigrants and the indigenous population.

Multiculturalism is a failed experiment and Europe would be wise to follow the Danish lead. Like everything else though I'm sure Ireland will probably be 20 years behind the rest of Europe in facing up to the reality of the problem.

PaulieD wrote:

Wrong. We can put our case forward in Brussels for implementing a work permit scheme for accession state nationals. Similar to Austria and Germany.

iv) safeguard clause (paragraph 7)

If an old Member State stops using national law measures and moves to free movement of workers under Community law, there is a possibility to re-impose restrictions if there are serious disturbances on the labour market, or the threat thereof. These "safeguard" clauses have always featured in accession Treaties, but have never been invoked. Therefore the Commission has no practical experience in their operation. However, it is clear that the Commission would expect a Member State to put forward convincing proof of a high level of disturbance on the labour market, in order to justify seeking to re-impose a restriction on free movement of workers, one of the four fundamental freedoms under the EC Treaty*. This same comment will apply to the use of the safeguard clause as between the new Member States (under paragraph 11).

Interesting. So Dick Roche was not lying a few years ago during the radio interview with Anthony Coughlan when he mentioned that we had this option.

Surely even the most liberal defender of our recent immigration policies would have to admit that in our current difficulties it would be worth approaching the EU commission to remind them of the above clause?

PaulieD

Justind wrote: »

The worst bludgers in Ireland, in my view, are the Irish.

What nonsense. Care to back that up?

-Immigrants are more likely to be on welfare than Irish citizens.

http://www.examiner.ie/ireland/foreign-nationals-account-for-20-claiming-dole-93781.html

-In 2006, during the boom, 62% of all Nigerians resident in the state were unemployed.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/kevin-myers/risible-lies-about-immigrants-no-substitute-for-honest-debate-1456226.html

-In 2008, a spot check of Children's Allowance found a greater incidence of fraud amongst foreigners. The fraud amongst foreigners was 13% of all claims compared to 1.5% among Irish citizens. So, one in eight of those children not resident in the state, in receipt of the benefit simply do not exist. Ergo, eastern europeans are 800% more likely to commit child benefit fraud compared to Irish citizens.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...565492868.html

-Immigrants are five times more likely to be in receipt of rent allowance compared to Irish citizens.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/strain-on-rent-relief-as-32000-foreigners-claim-aid-1843632.html

Sure, we do have a problem with dolers in this country, importing foreigners to keep them company in the dole office is not going to solve the problem now, is it?

PaulieD

djpbarry wrote: »

How about you just answer the question? You’re claiming that most Poles work in low-paid jobs (and consequently pay very little tax), but they still manage to send home €15k per year?

I am claiming nada. If you have an issue with the figures, take it up with the Bank of Ireland, Ulster Bank and AIB. They came up with the figures, not me.

Nodin

PaulieD wrote: »

Having previously worked with literally thousands of foreigners. 90% of whom, worked in low skilled jobs.
.

So an anecdote....

PaulieD wrote: »

Sweet Jesus. Do we actually live in the same city?.

A 'roll of the eyes', again referring to anecdotal evidence...

PaulieD wrote: »

The Minister of Integration claimed that there were 200,000 Poles living here. Nearly 400,000 Poles acquired a PPS number over the last five years. There are a lot more than 100,000 Poles in Ireland.

When did the minister make that statement...?

Johnathonanon wrote:

Joys of Multiculturalism? This is a myth. We only need to look across the Irish Sea to understand that mixing very dissimilar cultures does not work. You end up with ghettos and race riots..

...when was the last "race riot" in London?

Aleksmart wrote:

All very true IF the original indiginous or dominant culture is accepted as such,however the current "multicultural" ethos in the UK and Ireland appears to revolve around the active diminution of the Native cultures ..

Utter crap.

OldJay

PaulieD wrote: »

What nonsense. Care to back that up?

-Immigrants are more likely to be on welfare than Irish citizens.

http://www.examiner.ie/ireland/foreign-nationals-account-for-20-claiming-dole-93781.html

-In 2006, during the boom, 62% of all Nigerians resident in the state were unemployed.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/kevin-myers/risible-lies-about-immigrants-no-substitute-for-honest-debate-1456226.html

-In 2008, a spot check of Children's Allowance found a greater incidence of fraud amongst foreigners. The fraud amongst foreigners was 13% of all claims compared to 1.5% among Irish citizens. So, one in eight of those children not resident in the state, in receipt of the benefit simply do not exist. Ergo, eastern europeans are 800% more likely to commit child benefit fraud compared to Irish citizens.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...565492868.html

-Immigrants are five times more likely to be in receipt of rent allowance compared to Irish citizens.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/strain-on-rent-relief-as-32000-foreigners-claim-aid-1843632.html

Sure, we do have a problem with dolers in this country, importing foreigners to keep them company in the dole office is not going to solve the problem now, is it?

Bludging does not mean being in receipt of social welfare.
It means cheating on social welfare. If 1.5% of the Irish population cheating on childrens allowance alone doesn't register (conveniently) with you then thats your problem. Not mine. The worst in my own experience have been Irish people.
Have a dip in findings on the department's unemployment benefit schemes. I'm sure everybody has been trying to find a job to change their circumstances. No amount of sign-ons are working black either. Its all hunky dory and if it goes awry, its obviously just Johnny Foreigner's fault. They're just so different. My late girlfriend received social benefit, HSE help and grant for furthering her education. Wasn't from the EU, didnt give a stuff about Irish music or GAA sports but was a valuable member of our community. I suppose she should have just effed off instead?

So no, not nonsense at all. I sponsored my Nigerian neighbour's citizenship application and hope she gets what she wants. My niece will come over from Australia and she's welcome to stay in this country to live as long as she wants, as far as I'm concerned. If she needs assistance from the state to help her settle then so be it.

O'Morris

djpbarry wrote:

How about you just answer the question? You’re claiming that most Poles work in low-paid jobs (and consequently pay very little tax), but they still manage to send home €15k per year? Care to tell us how that adds up?

The €15k per year is based on your assumption that there are only 100,000 Poles in the country. Wouldn't it be more reasonable to assume that there are far more than 100,000 Poles in the country and that they are on average sending home far less than €15k a year?

A population of 200,000 Poles sending home an average of €7,500 a year each seems far more realistic than a population of only 100,000 sending home an average of €15,000 each.

herya

PaulieD wrote: »

I am claiming nada. If you have an issue with the figures, take it up with the Bank of Ireland, Ulster Bank and AIB. They came up with the figures, not me.

I gave you a valid and genuine explanation - that apart from obvious sending money to their families people keep using their "foreign" accounts and putting their savings there while spending money in Ireland - but obviously it would be too simple. Better to keep punching this strawman of a low wage dole sponging swan eating 12 in a house Pole who still manages to transfer the fortune out of Ireland.

OldJay

As far as I'm concerned, if you pay taxes and dues you are entitled to do whatever the hell you want with your money.

K-9

PaulieD wrote: »

-In 2008, a spot check of Children's Allowance found a greater incidence of fraud amongst foreigners. The fraud amongst foreigners was 13% of all claims compared to 1.5% among Irish citizens. So, one in eight of those children not resident in the state, in receipt of the benefit simply do not exist. Ergo, eastern europeans are 800% more likely to commit child benefit fraud compared to Irish citizens.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...565492868.html

Well I'd expect far more Child Benefit fraud from foreigners tbh. How does an Irish person falsely claim it?

PaulieD

K-9 wrote: »

Well I'd expect far more Child Benefit fraud from foreigners tbh. How does an Irish person falsely claim it?

Dunno. Ive never swindled the state.

PaulieD

herya wrote: »

I gave you a valid and genuine explanation - that apart from obvious sending money to their families people keep using their "foreign" accounts and putting their savings there while spending money in Ireland - but obviously it would be too simple. Better to keep punching this strawman of a low wage dole sponging swan eating 12 in a house Pole who still manages to transfer the fortune out of Ireland.

Strawman? I never mentioned swans or 12 in a house. You came up with some nonsensical explanation. Look, the money is being sent home to Poland. Simple as that. Why else would the Polish ambassador come out with a staement like this; "Whenever I’m asked what’s the most important link between Ireland and Poland, apart from the European Union, of course, I point to this amount of money,” Szumowski says. “Extraordinary amounts of money.”

PaulieD

Justind wrote: »

It means cheating on social welfare. If 1.5% of the Irish population cheating on childrens allowance alone doesn't register (conveniently) with you then thats your problem. Not mine. The worst in my own experience have been Irish people.

The facts and figures say otherwise. My calculator says 13% is a lot higher than 1.5%. What does yours say?:rolleyes:

K-9

PaulieD wrote: »

Dunno. Ive never swindled the state.

Must be pretty difficult I'd have thought. Pretend you have kids, lie about ages?

It would help if you'd compare like with like. If you'd stats on fraud on Unemployment Benefit I'd be inclined to take you more seriously, not points to suit your agenda.

SWL

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I was in a relationship with a Polish girl from 2004 to 2007.


This attitude of "owing them nothing" makes me laugh.
They were basically allowed in here to
(i) Pay rent
(ii) Drive down wages and make us more competitive - who benefited from this? The Irish employers, thats who.
(iii) Keep the boom going longer

Firstly you need a class in economics, secondly as Adults in a functioning society everyone pays their way that includes rent, food and taxes if you don't like don't go it really is that simple, in Sweden we have had the system where as soon as someone arrives at your boarders its now Mr. and Mrs. Sweden who must pay for their support, it hasn't worked and the majority want it changed.

You can you tube Malmo problems with multi cultural and see what Sweden got for their generosity, for "owing them something" attitude

OldJay

PaulieD wrote: »

The facts and figures say otherwise. My calculator says 13% is a lot higher than 1.5%. What does yours say?:rolleyes:

Moral relativism isn't going to justify any amount of one-eyed anti-foreigner diatribe. Do you know how many Irish people at last count were found to be claiming social welfare/unemployment benefit on top of other income? Cases of claimants being found to be settling for benefits instead of undertaking further education or employment?
Surely you must? Otherwise . . .

herya

PaulieD wrote: »

You came up with some nonsensical explanation. Look, the money is being sent home to Poland. Simple as that.[/I]

How is it nonsensical? It makes perfect sense. I have bank accounts in three countries and I use whichever suits me best. I use my dual currency Polish account for a lot of stuff as it is simply better and more profitable than what Irish current accounts offer, especially online management options here are laughable in comparison. It costs me nearly nothing too so why shouldn't I - and I know it's common among working non-nationals. My Irish account is mostly used for direct debits and bills tbh. Therefore I must have "transferred out" tens of thousands on paper, while only spending a tiny fraction there when I visit once a year. Wake up, it's a global civilisation we live in.

PaulieD

K-9 wrote: »

Must be pretty difficult I'd have thought. Pretend you have kids, lie about ages?

I have no clue.

K-9 wrote: »

It would help if you'd compare like with like. If you'd stats on fraud on Unemployment Benefit I'd be inclined to take you more seriously, not points to suit your agenda.

It would help if the figures were released.

I can never win, I produce figures for child benefit fraud, you want figures for jobseekers allowance. I dare say if I produced those figures, you would be hounding me for some other figures.

Out of interest, whats my agenda? Ive no vested interests in Irelands immigration policies, can everybody else who has posted on this thread say the same?;)

OldJay

SWL wrote: »

Firstly you need a class in economics, secondly as Adults in a functioning society everyone pays their way that includes rent, food and taxes if you don't like don't go it really is that simple, in Sweden we have had the system where as soon as someone arrives at your boarders its now Mr. and Mrs. Sweden who must pay for their support, it hasn't worked and the majority want it changed.

You can you tube Malmo problems with multi cultural and see what Sweden got for their generosity, for "owing them something" attitude

On the other it has benefitted the country greatly with giving people choosing to live there a start as they settle in their new home. As in Norway, where I received the same support in my first year until I gained employment.

PaulieD

herya wrote: »

How is it nonsensical? It makes perfect sense. I have bank accounts in three countries and I use whichever suits me best. I use my dual currency Polish account for a lot of stuff as it is simply better and more profitable than what Irish current accounts offer, especially online management options here are laughable in comparison. It costs me nearly nothing too so why shouldn't I - and I know it's common among working non-nationals. My Irish account is mostly used for direct debits and bills tbh. Therefore I must have "transferred out" tens of thousands on paper, while only spending a tiny fraction there when I visit once a year.

Look, let me repeat this one last time. They are not my figures. The banks claim 1.5 billion is being sent home to Poland per annum. Not me. If you have issue with the figures take it up with them.

herya wrote: »

Wake up, it's a global civilisation we live in.

I am very much awake. Last time I checked, I lived in Ireland.

Until mass immigration is approved through the ballot box by the majority of Irish citizens, I will not support it. I did not give up my rights as an Irish citizen to common ownership of these islands. Migrant workers have legal permission to reside in the state, but they are not part of the nation.

PaulieD

Justind wrote: »

Moral relativism isn't going to justify any amount of one-eyed anti-foreigner diatribe. Do you know how many Irish people at last count were found to be claiming social welfare/unemployment benefit on top of other income? Cases of claimants being found to be settling for benefits instead of undertaking further education or employment?
Surely you must? Otherwise . . .

I am sure you will post a link. Otherwise........

herya

PaulieD wrote: »

Look, let me repeat this one last time. They are not my figures. The banks claim 1.5 billion is being sent home to Poland per annum. Not me. If you have issue with the figures take it up with them.

And I'm patiently trying to explain to you that "sent to Poland" does not mean "transferred out of Irish economy" if it's still going to be spent here. I've no issue with the figures, just with your interpretation of them.

PaulieD

Justind wrote: »

On the other it has benefitted the country greatly with giving people choosing to live there a start as they settle in their new home. As in Norway, where I received the same support in my first year until I gained employment.

How does giving immigrants social welfare as soon as they enter the state "benefit the country?"

SWL

Justind wrote: »

On the other it has benefitted the country greatly with giving people choosing to live there a start as they settle in their new home. As in Norway, where I received the same support in my first year until I gained employment.

That’s not Swedish nationals who have to foot the bill will say, if you want a "start" be a man/adult and plough your own furrow, why is it acceptable to receive state handouts after just arriving in a country, Is it Sweden or Norway problem that you or others have decide to live there, if you do decide to move no problem but why is it acceptable for an ADULT to receive state benefits and not feel its ridiculous, in Sweden the majority want it changed for good, because race riots isn't much thanks

PaulieD

herya wrote: »

I've no issue with the figures, just with your interpretation of them.

I am a patient young fella, Herya, so I will repeat myself one more time. If you have a problem with the figures, take it up with the banks, the Polish ambassador and the Irish times.

Its not my interpretation, its theres. End of.

herya

PaulieD wrote: »

I am a patient young fella, Herya, so I will repeat myself one more time. If you have a problem with the figures, take it up with the banks, the Polish ambassador and the Irish times.

Its not my interpretation, its theres. End of.

Didn't I write very clearly "I've no issue with the figures"?... I thought I did?

You're contradicting yourself. You wrote in this thread: "Also, Irish_bob is correct. The Poles send home 1.5 billion each year from Ireland. Thats a nice chunk of change, that the Irish economy could badly do with.". This is your interpretation.

I am telling you how sending money to any country on paper does not mean that it won't be used within the Irish economy. Yes 1.5bln is sent to Poland. No it doesn't mean that it won't be spent in Ireland still. If you don't understand it honestly EOT, it's not worth it.

K-9

PaulieD wrote: »

I have no clue.



It would help if the figures were released.

I can never win, I produce figures for child benefit fraud, you want figures for jobseekers allowance. I dare say if I produced those figures, you would be hounding me for some other figures.

Out of interest, whats my agenda? Ive no vested interests in Irelands immigration policies, can everybody else who has posted on this thread say the same?;)

You have an agenda because you can't take on a simple basic point like the one about Child Benefit. It is far more likely foreigners will partake in fraud of Child Benefit than an Irish person. Its simple. It's like saying women are far more likely to defraud the single parent payment than men.

Jobseekers Allowance makes far more sense. I'd very much doubt only 1.5% of Irish people are defrauding it and 800% more foreigners.