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Denmark paying immigrants to go home
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Didn't I write very clearly "I've no issue with the figures"?... I thought I did?
You're contradicting yourself. You wrote in this thread: "Also, Irish_bob is correct. The Poles send home 1.5 billion each year from Ireland. Thats a nice chunk of change, that the Irish economy could badly do with.". This is your interpretation.
I am telling you how sending money to any country on paper does not mean that it won't be used within the Irish economy. Yes 1.5bln is sent to Poland. No it doesn't mean that it won't be spent in Ireland still. If you don't understand it honestly EOT, it's not worth it.
Immigrants in sending back money to home shocker. The Irish would never do that now. Some will grab onto anything to justify their beliefs.Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.
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That’s not Swedish nationals who have to foot the bill will say, if you want a "start" be a man/adult and plough your own furrow, why is it acceptable to receive state handouts after just arriving in a country, Is it Sweden or Norway problem that you or others have decide to live there, if you do decide to move no problem but why is it acceptable for an ADULT to receive state benefits and not feel its ridiculous, in Sweden the majority want it changed for good, because race riots isn't much thanks
I moved to Norway with my late girlfriend from Australia. I got assistance in learning the language and seeking employment. I then got a job (as a translator for an editorial office), stopped claiming when I earned and hey presto, everyone wins. The country gains another taxpayer and we earned an income via a very good job thanks to the help I received when searching.
No big culture shock to Norway (or Sweden, the country you allege to come from - remembering your Lisbon Treaty tirade before) and when you have labour agreements with other countries, part and parcel of what you are obliged to undertake.
Back in Ireland now and am working, paying my taxes and doing my bit. I'm proud that I sponsor my neighbour's citizenship application (originally from Nigeria). They're a lovely family, do more than most in this town for its community and are everything that you and your ilk claim they aren't. When my niece comes, I'll do the same for her if she needs.
Nice, eh? Thought so.0 -
You have an agenda because you can't take on a simple basic point like the one about Child Benefit.
Like?It is far more likely foreigners will partake in fraud of Child Benefit than an Irish person.
Why?Its simple.
How so?Jobseekers Allowance makes far more sense. I'd very much doubt only 1.5% of Irish people are defrauding it and 800% more foreigners.
Ok, so foreigners are 800% more likely to defraud child benefit but you reckon they are not likely to defraud jobseekers benefit/allowance. How did you work this one out?0 -
I moved to Norway with my late girlfriend from Australia. I got assistance in learning the language and seeking employment. I then got a job (as a translator for an editorial office), stopped claiming when I earned and hey presto, everyone wins. The country gains another taxpayer and we earned an income via a very good job thanks to the help I received when searching.
No big culture shock to Norway (or Sweden, the country you allege to come from - remembering your Lisbon Treaty tirade before) and when you have labour agreements with other countries, part and parcel of what you are obliged to undertake.
Back in Ireland now and am working, paying my taxes and doing my bit. I'm proud that I sponsor my neighbour's citizenship application (originally from Nigeria). They're a lovely family, do more than most in this town for its community and are everything that you and your ilk claim they aren't. When my niece comes, I'll do the same for her if she needs.
Nice, eh? Thought so.
Will you pay the social welfare bill for newly arrived immigrants? Only fair, you want them to receive welfare the second they arrive, you pay for it. At present its looking like my grandkids will have to pick up the tab.0 -
I am sure you will post a link. Otherwise........
There is a publication available for your perusal. Released last February by the Dept of Social and Family Affairs.
I don't know if its available online but was freely available for anyone to pick up. Would you like directions? Or are you going to regurgitate cherry-picked editorial comment again?0 -
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Ok, so foreigners are 800% more likely to defraud child benefit but you reckon they are not likely to defraud jobseekers benefit/allowance. How did you work this one out?
Simple. The main cause of benefit fraud by foreigners is that in fact they reside out of the state (yes I have a link somewhere). Surely they are more likely to do it than an average Irish claimant. Foreigners also need to present the proof etc every year (I believe) so they are more likely to be caught when screened.
JSB/JSA are collected in person therefore you can't claim it from outside the state.0 -
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Will you pay the social welfare for newly arrived immigrants? Only fair, you want them to receive welfare the second they arrive, you pay for it. At present its looking like my grandkids will have to pick up the tab.
To avoid migrants missing out on jobs, they've obviously got to receive some assistance in doing so.
I already do pay towards helping them get a start here finding employment etc. No problem with that whatsoever.
I'm all for deportation of unsuccessful asylum seekers (following appeal) and illegal immigrants but I don't get them mixed up with genuines nor do I incorrectly assume that they're going to ruin my country's 'culture'.
My mother's side of the family fled here in 1944 from occupied Greece. They were part of the number of a miniscule amount of Jews allowed into Ireland. Also having lived abroad for many years, I appreciate what its like to settle afresh in a country.
You don't think like this but thats most certainly not my problem.0 -
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Foreigners also need to present the proof etc every year (I believe) so they are more likely to be caught when screened.
It was every 3 months or so. We'd get a letter in the mail requesting all sorts of info, with 10 days to get it back to them or they would cut it off.
I don't know if it's changed or not as we cancelled ours, don't need it, I'm sure someone else who does now gets it...
Edit: I'm referring to Child Benefit here, just to clarify.0 -
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To avoid migrants missing out on jobs, they've obviously got to receive some assistance in doing so.
I already do pay towards helping them get a start here finding employment etc. No problem with that whatsoever.
I'm all for deportation of unsuccessful asylum seekers (following appeal) and illegal immigrants but I don't get them mixed up with genuines nor do I incorrectly assume that they're going to ruin my country's 'culture'.
My mother's side of the family fled here in 1944 from occupied Greece. They were part of the number of a miniscule amount of Jews allowed into Ireland. Also having lived abroad for many years, I appreciate what its like to settle afresh in a country.
You don't think like this but thats most certainly not my problem.
I didnt ask for a life story. Do you think Ireland has an infinite capacity to absorb immigrants?0 -
You get what you're given. Ignore if you wish thoughI didnt ask for a life storyDo you think Ireland has an infinite capacity to absorb immigrants?
Did I ever say that it did? No. I do say that anyone is free to apply for residency/citizenship however and that I don't panic with bullsh pro-agendaic bilge about loss of culture/'Irishness'0 -
Ok, so foreigners are 800% more likely to defraud child benefit but you reckon they are not likely to defraud jobseekers benefit/allowance. How did you work this one out?
Huh?
Good God of almighty, how'd you manage to work that one out?Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.
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Like?
You see the 800% figure and don't analyse or criticise it. It's self affirming for you. People are pointing it out, but you don't want to see it.PaulieD wrote:Why?
Because it's rather more difficult for an Irish person to defraud Child Benefit and there is more incentive for a foreigner. Fraud will happen regardless of nationality, as we all should know. The Irish are masters at it with the Northern Ireland system.
Indeed, I'd be interested in seeing how many of these foreigners are based in NI.
Jobseekers Allowance or the Sick is an easier target for Irish people.PaulieD wrote:How so?
Women are far more likely to defraud Lone Parents Allowance so men are far less likely to commit SW fraud.
Yes?Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.
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I wasnt mixing up my terms. Illegal Immigrants should be immediately deported, and asylum seekers have a very lenient system already in place to deal with them on a case by case basis.If you bother replying, please refrain from mixing 'immigrants' up with 'illegal immigrants' and 'asylum seekers'.
I think anybody who fits the conditions I outlined, then the country is better served by repatriating them. We all have a choice of what type of country we want to live in. I would chose to give priority to those who want to come to this country for more than child benefits free health care etc etc, want to learn the language, want to get a job, want to contribute something, and will integrate at least to some extent with the Irish people and Irish culture.0 -
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The Minister of Integration claimed that there were 200,000 Poles living here. Nearly 400,000 Poles acquired a PPS number over the last five years. There are a lot more than 100,000 Poles in Ireland.
The last census has the figure at 63,090, but statistics can be misleading (especially in the hands of those who wish to mislead).Last year, some €1.5 billion was sent to Poland from Ireland via the banking system.
2007 figures from the Polish Central Bank puts a similar statistic at €130 millionTHE Polish community working in Ireland sent home an estimated €130 million last year.
Big disparities there. See how easy it is to pluck wildly different figures from the Internet to suit a particular arguement.0 -
You’re obviously thinking of a different Limerick to the one that most people in this country are familiar with.Parts of Dublin and Limerick have levels of poverty and social deprivation that are among the worst in western Europe and yet you don't see the same kinds of powder-keg tensions behind groups of people that you see between ethnic minorities and the majority population in even the most socially egalitarian Scandinavian countries.
I know I’ve asked this before many-a-time, but anyways... what exactly is multiculturalism?Multiculturalism is a failed experiment ...
There’s that word again.
Hmm. I think we’re already the economic laughing stock of the EU – I’m not sure a request to restrict immigration, at a time when we are experiencing net emigration, would enhance our current reputation.Surely even the most liberal defender of our recent immigration policies would have to admit that in our current difficulties it would be worth approaching the EU commission to remind them of the above clause?
Which, as I’ve already stated, is a generous assumption.The €15k per year is based on your assumption that there are only 100,000 Poles in the country.
We could assume that, but it would have little basis in reality given that the census in 2006 revealed a figure of approximately 63,000. Now granted, the census is not perfect, but I find it extremely difficult to believe that the numbers of one particular population could have been so grossly underestimated.Wouldn't it be more reasonable to assume that there are far more than 100,000 Poles in the country and that they are on average sending home far less than €15k a year?0 -
So immigrants are more likely to be out of work than Irish people, yet they are also stealing all the jobs and ‘forcing’ Irish people to emigrate? Consistency isn’t your strong point, is it?Immigrants are more likely to be on welfare than Irish citizens.
Not true.In 2006, during the boom, 62% of all Nigerians resident in the state were unemployed.
I’m going to go out on a limb here and suggest that immigrants are also far more likely to be renting than Irish people?Immigrants are five times more likely to be in receipt of rent allowance compared to Irish citizens.
Bollocks – you’ve claimed plenty. Now you’re backing away since you realise that nothing you’ve said adds up.I am claiming nada.
Allow me to refresh your memory. You stated that you have worked with thousands of foreigners, 90% of whom worked in low-skilled (and presumably low-paid) jobs. You have claimed that immigrants make up a ‘large portion’ of the 38% of the working population who don’t pay any income tax. You’re now claiming that foreigners are disproportionately represented in the dole queues, when you earlier stated they were forcing Irish people out of the country looking for work.
Now, assuming that Poles are representative of the larger immigrant population that you have so elegantly described, would you mind explaining how a group of people who, for the most part, work in such low-paid jobs that they don’t pay any tax could possibly manage to do without €1.5 BILLION between them per year? You can’t, can you? Cue another cop-out along the lines of “Oh, they’re not my figures, so I don’t have to explain why I used them in my argument”.
I’m pretty sure the Irish people voted overwhelmingly in favour of joining the EU in 1972 and in so-doing, accepted the fundamental principles of the institutions.Until mass immigration is approved through the ballot box by the majority of Irish citizens, I will not support it.0 -
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-Immigrants are more likely to be on welfare than Irish citizens.
http://www.examiner.ie/ireland/foreign-nationals-account-for-20-claiming-dole-93781.html
-In 2006, during the boom, 62% of all Nigerians resident in the state were unemployed.
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/kevin-myers/risible-lies-about-immigrants-no-substitute-for-honest-debate-1456226.html
-In 2008, a spot check of Children's Allowance found a greater incidence of fraud amongst foreigners. The fraud amongst foreigners was 13% of all claims compared to 1.5% among Irish citizens. So, one in eight of those children not resident in the state, in receipt of the benefit simply do not exist. Ergo, eastern europeans are 800% more likely to commit child benefit fraud compared to Irish citizens.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...565492868.html
-Immigrants are five times more likely to be in receipt of rent allowance compared to Irish citizens.
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/strain-on-rent-relief-as-32000-foreigners-claim-aid-1843632.html
Sure, we do have a problem with dolers in this country, importing foreigners to keep them company in the dole office is not going to solve the problem now, is it?
Do you have a problem with immigrants full stop, or just those claiming state benefits? To me, it's no coincidence that when times are hard, the racist element starts to grow worse.. like the "British Jobs for British People" marches in the UK back in February.
Sure, it was all grand when times were good - we had the "Blacks in the Jacks" & "The Poles in the Holes" doing all the "menial" jobs that no-one else wanted at the time, but now when even those jobs are seen as an income, we "want them back".
I'm not surprised that a lot of Nigerians were on the dole - not many people would employ them, even during the boom, but even these days, if you want a taxi at 6am in Dublin City, you'll be almost guaranteed that the driver will be a non-national & not a Dub, who's more content doing the social hour shifts & complaining about not earning enough.
It also doesn't surprise me that emmigrants are more likely to commit dole fraud - sure why wouldn't they - the system is wide open to abuse & it's easy money. But is this an argument for sorting out the social welfare system or is it one for closing the borders? It depends very much which side of the fence you sit on.
You can use facts & figures to prove anything and you can pick & choose whichever ones you like, but you can also avoid the real issues by doing so & you can also mask an underlying racist train of thought under them too.0 -
starbelgrade wrote: »Do you have a problem with immigrants full stop, or just those claiming state benefits? To me, it's no coincidence that when times are hard, the racist element starts to grow worse.. like the "British Jobs for British People" marches in the UK back in February.
Sure, it was all grand when times were good - we had the "Blacks in the Jacks" & "The Poles in the Holes" doing all the "menial" jobs that no-one else wanted at the time, but now when even those jobs are seen as an income, we "want them back".
I'm not surprised that a lot of Nigerians were on the dole - not many people would employ them, even during the boom, but even these days, if you want a taxi at 6am in Dublin City, you'll be almost guaranteed that the driver will be a non-national & not a Dub, who's more content doing the social hour shifts & complaining about not earning enough.
It also doesn't surprise me that emmigrants are more likely to commit dole fraud - sure why wouldn't they - the system is wide open to abuse & it's easy money. But is this an argument for sorting out the social welfare system or is it one for closing the borders? It depends very much which side of the fence you sit on.
You can use facts & figures to prove anything and you can pick & choose whichever ones you like, but you can also avoid the real issues by doing so & you can also mask an underlying racist train of thought under them too.
Liberal pandering nonsense. I'm liberalbut you're going outofyour way to defend non-nationals just for the sake of it0 -
I am trying to verify these figures.
Failure of welfare rules
Recent figures from the Department of Social and Family Affairs show that foreign nationals now represent more than 40 per cent of the people on welfare in Ireland.
The social welfare budget in Ireland for 2009 is €23 billion; 40 per cent of that is almost €10 billion, which is now being spent on social welfare benefits to foreign nationals in Ireland.
A loophole in Irish welfare rules means that foreign nationals who worked in other EU accession states can move their welfare credits to Ireland. Many migrants from the EU accession states earn more on welfare in Ireland than they do working in their own home countries, and have opted to exploit this loophole. According to official statistics, more than half the foreign nationals on Irish welfare have not paid the required PRSI contribution in Ireland.
Instead of cutting dole payments for people who have paid PRSI, the Irish government should stop all welfare payments to foreign nationals who have not paid the required PRSI contribution in Ireland. In 2004, Bertie Ahern was the only leader in Western Europe to allow immigrants from the new accession states to come to Ireland without any restrictions. If the Irish government had the courage to update our welfare rules in line with those of France, Germany and Spain, Ireland would save €5 billion a year in payments to welfare migrants.
Gavin Murphy Castleknock, Dublin 15
http://www.sbpost.ie/post/pages/p/wholestory.aspx-qqqt=LETTERS-qqqs=letters-qqqsectionid=3-qqqc=11.0.0.0-qqqn=20-qqqx=1.asp0 -
It’s not a ‘loophole’ – social security provisions have existed in EU law for decades.A loophole in Irish welfare rules means that foreign nationals who worked in other EU accession states can move their welfare credits to Ireland.
I wouldn’t be too sure about that, but anyway, Ireland is a tad more expensive, isn’t it?Many migrants from the EU accession states earn more on welfare in Ireland than they do working in their own home countries...
Again, I don’t know if that statistic is true, but if, for example, a Polish national is claiming a welfare payment in Ireland based partly on social security credits earned in Poland, then the Polish state makes a proportional contribution toward that welfare payment.According to official statistics, more than half the foreign nationals on Irish welfare have not paid the required PRSI contribution in Ireland.0 -
I am trying to verify these figures.
Read this too - just came up in another thread, some interesting reading there.
http://www.ronanlyons.com/2009/11/13/a-modest-proposal-for-preventing-the-foreign-people-in-ireland-from-being-a-burden-to-the-country/0 -
djpbarry wrote:You’re obviously thinking of a different Limerick to the one that most people in this country are familiar with.
Dublin on the other hand...
I wasn't talking about Limerick as a city. I was talking about parts of Limerick and parts of Dublin. Places like Moyross in Limerick have levels of poverty that are as bad as the most deprived muslim or Afro-Caribbean ghettos of London or Paris.djpbarry wrote:I know I’ve asked this before many-a-time, but anyways... what exactly is multiculturalism?
Wikipedia gives a good definition of multiculuturalism that I wouldn't be able to improve upon:Multiculturalism is the acceptance of multiple ethnic cultures, for practical reasons and/or for the sake of diversity and applied to the demographic make-up of a specific place, usually at the organizational level, e.g. schools, businesses, neighborhoods, cities or nations. In this context, multiculturalists advocate extending equitable status to distinct ethnic and religious groups without promoting any specific ethnic, religious, and/or cultural community values as central.
I think the highlighted text is the part that most people have a problem with.djpbarry wrote:Hmm. I think we’re already the economic laughing stock of the EU – I’m not sure a request to restrict immigration, at a time when we are experiencing net emigration, would enhance our current reputation.
You think it would do damage to our reputation if we imposed the same restrictions on immigration as the Germans have imposed on immigration into their country? Do you think the Canadians and the Australians would be less likely to admit the thousands of Irish if they found out that we have started to treat immigrants from eastern Europe in the same way that they themselves treat immigrants from eastern Europe?
You obviously haven't been keeping up to date with developments in the economy either if you think the Europeans don't have a strong interest in us getting our finances under control. Earlier in the week they extended by a year the deadline for us to bring our budget deficit down to the acceptable level for eurozone countries. It's in their interest for us to cut the size of our welfare bill. Not only would they look sympathetically on any measure to cut unemployment by cutting immigration but I wouldn't be all that surprised if they themselves propose the measure as a means to help reduce government borrowing.
Or maybe we should just wait for the IMF to come in to see if they agree with you that the reputational costs to us are higher than the costs of us prolonging unemployment by allowing us support a foreign labour force that is now surplus to our needs?
I've noticed as well that whenever the question of restricting immigration comes up, the typical objections have little to do with cutting immigration in itself. It seems to be mostly about what the neighbours will think. Suppose hypothetically that it was possible for us to cut down on the number of jobseekers entering the country without provoking a reaction from other countries, don't you think it might be worth us making that effort? Considering the financial crisis we're in don't you think we would have a strong case to make?djparry wrote:We could assume that, but it would have little basis in reality given that the census in 2006 revealed a figure of approximately 63,000.
You can't seriously believe that a census carried out 3 years ago gives an accurate picture of current numbers. We have had more years of mass immigration from eastern Europe since the census was carried out than we had before the census carried out. More Poles would have entered the country post-census than would have entered it pre-census.djpbarry wrote:Now granted, the census is not perfect, but I find it extremely difficult to believe that the numbers of one particular population could have been so grossly underestimated.
It might not have been grossly understimated at the time it was carried out but the census was carried out 3 years ago and immigration from eastern Europe post-census has been as high as it was pre-census. Even if you believe that most of the Poles have returned home in the last year, the movement of tens of thousands of people in and out of the country means that it's very unlikely that the actual figure today is anywhere within 50,000 of the nice exact figure of 63,000 given in the census.0 -
It might not have been grossly understimated at the time it was carried out but the census was carried out 3 years ago and immigration from eastern Europe post-census has been as high as it was pre-census. Even if you believe that most of the Poles have returned home in the last year, the movement of tens of thousands of people in and out of the country means that it's very unlikely that the actual figure today is anywhere within 50,000 of the nice exact figure of 63,000 given in the census.For every single unemployed Eastern European in Ireland, there are four times as many still working. According to the last Quarterly National Household Survey, only 29,000 were classed as unemployed, while 124,000 were employed. Not only that, they are a pretty self-regulating bunch, as large numbers have been leaving of their own volition over the past two years. The total number of new-EU, employed and unemployed, has fallen steadily every quarter since late 2007, and by 30,000 in total. There are now just 150,000 – mostly happily employed -new-EU members of the labour force in Ireland.
From the article linked above. Note that 150k refers to all new accession states, not just Poland.
Also, the 63k figure was brought up in relation to 1.5bln money transfer figure from 2007. It's probably more appropriate to use 2006 than 2009 population figure for this.0 -
I don’t know anywhere in London that even comes close to Moyross, but anyway, my point was that Limerick has/had one of the highest crime rates (and, in particular, homicide rates) in Europe.I wasn't talking about Limerick as a city. I was talking about parts of Limerick and parts of Dublin. Places like Moyross in Limerick have levels of poverty that are as bad as the most deprived muslim or Afro-Caribbean ghettos of London or Paris.
That’s not really how I would think of multiculturalism and I don’t think it’s the sort of definition that is attached to the word in popular use. I think that’s the problem with words such as multiculturalism and ‘integration’ – they can mean very different things to different people.Wikipedia gives a good definition of multiculuturalism that I wouldn't be able to improve upon...
No, I think it’s ridiculous to be seeking restrictions on immigration at a time when we are experiencing net emigration. The non-Irish population has fallen by about 7% over the last year – why-oh-why would we bother wasting time and money regulating something that is clearly regulating itself?You think it would do damage to our reputation if we imposed the same restrictions on immigration as the Germans have imposed on immigration into their country?
And how will placing restrictions on the recent accession states achieve that exactly? According to the most recent QNHS (Sep 09), there are only 29,000 people from the accession states drawing dole in Ireland – a proverbial drop in the ocean.Earlier in the week they extended by a year the deadline for us to bring our budget deficit down to the acceptable level for eurozone countries. It's in their interest for us to cut the size of our welfare bill.
How exactly will “We want to close our borders to Poles” not provoke a reaction from Poland?Suppose hypothetically that it was possible for us to cut down on the number of jobseekers entering the country without provoking a reaction from other countries...
According to the latest QNHS figures, there are approximately 183,000 people from the accession states currently resident in Ireland.You can't seriously believe that a census carried out 3 years ago gives an accurate picture of current numbers.0 -
You'll be as good as to inform me when exactly it was discovered that immigrants were to blame for the amount of debt the country is in? I seem to have missed it.....
Heh, my co-worker made the exact same argument to me.
To hear him talk, the Eastern Europeans were solely to blame for the economic meltdown what with all their sending money back home etc.
It amazed me that someone who living in a different country (and completely unable to speak the language "If they want to talk to me they can speak English") can have such a mentality.0 -
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I am trying to verify these figures.
Failure of welfare rules
Recent figures from the Department of Social and Family Affairs show that foreign nationals now represent more than 40 per cent of the people on welfare in Ireland.
The social welfare budget in Ireland for 2009 is €23 billion; 40 per cent of that is almost €10 billion, which is now being spent on social welfare benefits to foreign nationals in Ireland.
A loophole in Irish welfare rules means that foreign nationals who worked in other EU accession states can move their welfare credits to Ireland. Many migrants from the EU accession states earn more on welfare in Ireland than they do working in their own home countries, and have opted to exploit this loophole. According to official statistics, more than half the foreign nationals on Irish welfare have not paid the required PRSI contribution in Ireland.
Instead of cutting dole payments for people who have paid PRSI, the Irish government should stop all welfare payments to foreign nationals who have not paid the required PRSI contribution in Ireland. In 2004, Bertie Ahern was the only leader in Western Europe to allow immigrants from the new accession states to come to Ireland without any restrictions. If the Irish government had the courage to update our welfare rules in line with those of France, Germany and Spain, Ireland would save €5 billion a year in payments to welfare migrants.
Gavin Murphy Castleknock, Dublin 15
http://www.sbpost.ie/post/pages/p/wholestory.aspx-qqqt=LETTERS-qqqs=letters-qqqsectionid=3-qqqc=11.0.0.0-qqqn=20-qqqx=1.asp
Does this mean that the oft-quoted on here "fact" that immigrants have to have been working for 2 years in ireland in order to get the full dole is false? Anybody?
Is the line that we essentially pay twice the dole to immigrants than france, Germany and Spain true? Can anyone disprove that one?
These are genuine questions I honestly don't know.
But if the above is true then we are getting the p1ss taken out of us, I know that much.0
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