Denmark paying immigrants to go home

starbelgrade · 13-11-2009 9:46pm

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Liberal pandering nonsense. I'm liberalbut you're going outofyour way to defend non-nationals just for the sake of it

Pandering to who exactly? I am entitled to my opinion & I am equally entitled to express it.

starbelgrade · 13-11-2009 9:52pm

johnathan woss wrote: »

Does this mean that the oft-quoted on here "fact" that immigrants have to have been working for 2 years in ireland in order to get the full dole is false? Anybody?

Is the line that we essentially pay twice the dole to immigrants than france, Germany and Spain true? Can anyone disprove that one?

These are genuine questions I honestly don't know.
But if the above is true then we are getting the p1ss taken out of us, I know that much.

I don't know if the "facts" or figures here are true or not, but if they are, it doesn't mean that we are having the p*ss taken out of us - it means we are willing let the p*ss be taken out of us. There is a difference.

The social welfare system here needs a vast overhaul - it is outdated, wide open to fraud & in many cases provides little or nothing to those who need it & who have paid into it.

There may well be problems with immigrants & state benefits, but surely this is a seperate debate entirely from the immigration debate.

K-9 · 13-11-2009 10:07pm

johnathan woss wrote: »

Does this mean that the oft-quoted on here "fact" that immigrants have to have been working for 2 years in ireland in order to get the full dole is false? Anybody?

Is the line that we essentially pay twice the dole to immigrants than france, Germany and Spain true? Can anyone disprove that one?

These are genuine questions I honestly don't know.
But if the above is true then we are getting the p1ss taken out of us, I know that much.

It's a letter to the Business post by Joe Soap.

I don't believe it's 40%, I think it's 20% from memory.

If our SW rates are double France, Germany and Spain it says a lot about our SW rates!

K-9 · 13-11-2009 10:18pm

13,521 Non EU
42,465 Accession states
4,271 EU15 less Ireland & UK
18,224 UK

78,481 Total

345,158 Irish Nationals.

How he got 40% I don't know.

http://www.cso.ie/px/pxeirestat/Dialog/varval.asp?ma=LRM09&ti=Persons+on+the+Live+Register+%28Number%29+by+Month+and+Nationality&path=../Database/Eirestat/Live%20Register/&lang=1

PaulieD · 13-11-2009 10:28pm

K-9 wrote: »

13,521 Non EU
42,465 Accession states
4,271 EU15 less Ireland & UK
18,224 UK

78,481 Total

345,158 Irish Nationals.

How he got 40% I don't know.

http://www.cso.ie/px/pxeirestat/Dialog/varval.asp?ma=LRM09&ti=Persons+on+the+Live+Register+%28Number%29+by+Month+and+Nationality&path=../Database/Eirestat/Live%20Register/&lang=1

Theres more to social welfare payments than JA/JB.

I read Richard Lyons article were he claims the eastern europeans have been a benefit to the economy. His figures are wrong.

42,465 x 204 x 52= 450,468,720 euro. So hes a good 100 million off for for starters.

How about Mr Lyons gives the full facts. He fails to include the cost of child benefit, housing allowances, medical card, back to school allowance, education grants etc. Rather conveinent that.

Also, remember that the eastern europeans employed could easily be replaced by Irish people on the dole so you would have to add in the cost of paying the dole to the same number of Irish for each and every eastern european employed. They are costing the state a tidy sum.

PaulieD · 13-11-2009 10:29pm

starbelgrade wrote: »

There may well be problems with immigrants & state benefits, but surely this is a seperate debate entirely from the immigration debate.

Yes, when one debates immigration one must only discuss the benefits.

starbelgrade · 13-11-2009 10:35pm

PaulieD wrote: »

Yes, when one debates immigration one must only discuss the benefits.

The law according to PaulieD.

PaulieD · 13-11-2009 10:54pm

starbelgrade wrote: »

Do you have a problem with immigrants full stop, or just those claiming state benefits?

Our countries immigration policies(sic).

starbelgrade wrote: »

To me, it's no coincidence that when times are hard, the racist element starts to grow worse.. like the "British Jobs for British People" marches in the UK back in February.

We dont have to look to the UK, heres an opinion poll carried out in Ireland fourteen months ago. Each and every opinion poll carried out since 2005 has shown that the majority of Irish people want further restrictions put on immigration.

ALMOST TWO-THIRDS of adults in the State believe immigration policy should be made more restrictive given the worsening economic outlook, according to an opinion poll to be published today.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2008/0910/1220919678623.html

starbelgrade wrote: »

Sure, it was all grand when times were good - we had the "Blacks in the Jacks" & "The Poles in the Holes" doing all the "menial" jobs that no-one else wanted at the time, but now when even those jobs are seen as an income, we "want them back".

Another myth. I worked part time during my schoold days in one of Dublins biggest petrol station. All the staff where Irish, bar two South African managers. From deli assistant to car washers, all were Irish. This was in 2001-2003. Its funny how the Irish people suddenly became lazy, it is even more amazing that it conveniently coincided with mass immigration from eastern europe. We carried out these jobs ourselves before the eastern europeans arrived en masse. We will carry them out ourselves once again when they leave.

starbelgrade wrote: »

I'm not surprised that a lot of Nigerians were on the dole - not many people would employ them, even during the boom, but even these days, if you want a taxi at 6am in Dublin City, you'll be almost guaranteed that the driver will be a non-national & not a Dub, who's more content doing the social hour shifts & complaining about not earning enough.

It doesnt surprise you that 62% of Nigerians are unemployed? Do you really think we need to import taxi drivers from Nigeria?

starbelgrade wrote: »

It also doesn't surprise me that emmigrants are more likely to commit dole fraud - sure why wouldn't they - the system is wide open to abuse & it's easy money. But is this an argument for sorting out the social welfare system or is it one for closing the borders? It depends very much which side of the fence you sit on.

They have a moral obligation not to rip off the state that has given them an opportunity of a better life. Let us not forget that Ireland was one of the only countries, along with the UK and Sweden, to open our borders to the accession states. They sure are a grateful bunch.

starbelgrade wrote: »

You can use facts & figures to prove anything and you can pick & choose whichever ones you like, but you can also avoid the real issues by doing so & you can also mask an underlying racist train of thought under them too.

And out comes the race card.

Mr.Micro · 14-11-2009 12:06am

starbelgrade wrote: »

I don't know if the "facts" or figures here are true or not, but if they are, it doesn't mean that we are having the p*ss taken out of us - it means we are willing let the p*ss be taken out of us. There is a difference.

The social welfare system here needs a vast overhaul - it is outdated, wide open to fraud & in many cases provides little or nothing to those who need it & who have paid into it.

There may well be problems with immigrants & state benefits, but surely this is a seperate debate entirely from the immigration debate.

Quite right. Too many times immigrants and benefit fraud are equated. Look at Fas, TDs expenses, Nama and the banks, CIE, and several other cozy cartels that exist in Ireland and then people can start on the benefit system. its just an excuse to begrudge people benefits just because the are non national. Like any system its not perfect it will have its fraudulent claimants etc but the most I will bet are bono fide .

K-9 · 14-11-2009 12:43am

PaulieD wrote: »

Theres more to social welfare payments than JA/JB.

I read Richard Lyons article were he claims the eastern europeans have been a benefit to the economy. His figures are wrong.

42,465 x 204 x 52= 450,468,720 euro. So hes a good 100 million off for for starters.

How about Mr Lyons gives the full facts. He fails to include the cost of child benefit, housing allowances, medical card, back to school allowance, education grants etc. Rather conveinent that.

Also, remember that the eastern europeans employed could easily be replaced by Irish people on the dole so you would have to add in the cost of paying the dole to the same number of Irish for each and every eastern european employed. They are costing the state a tidy sum.

Yep, the same payments Irish people get.

You now not only want to stop Immigrants claiming, you also want to sack Immigrant workers.

PaulieD · 14-11-2009 1:20am

K-9 wrote: »

You now not only want to stop Immigrants claiming, you also want to sack Immigrant workers.

Please stop putting words in my mouth.

Nodin · 14-11-2009 1:31am

PaulieD wrote: »

Please stop putting words in my mouth.

Anyone just has to look at your sig to see whats driving you, I'm afraid.

K-9 · 14-11-2009 1:56am

PaulieD wrote: »

Please stop putting words in my mouth.

You see Immigrant workers as costing the taxpayer money. Sending them home is the obvious solution as they'll claim too much if they go on SW.

PaulieD · 14-11-2009 2:05am

Nodin wrote: »

Anyone just has to look at your sig to see whats driving you, I'm afraid.

Which I already explained to you.....

Nodin wrote: »

You see Immigrant workers as costing the taxpayer money. Sending them home is the obvious solution as they'll claim too much if they go on SW.

No, a moratoriumm on immigration for the for see able future would be an obvious solution. Too obvious, it seems.

starbelgrade · 14-11-2009 2:05am

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Quite right. Too many times immigrants and benefit fraud are equated. Look at Fas, TDs expenses, Nama and the banks, CIE, and several other cozy cartels that exist in Ireland and then people can start on the benefit system. its just an excuse to begrudge people benefits just because the are non national. Like any system its not perfect it will have its fraudulent claimants etc but the most I will bet are bono fide .

Yep - but it's a whole lot easier to blame Johnny Foreigner.

PaulieD · 14-11-2009 2:07am

starbelgrade wrote: »

Yep - but it's a whole lot easier to blame Johnny Foreigner.

Nama, Fas, mass immigration all the same to me. The same people are getting screwed over by them all, the average Irish worker.

starbelgrade · 14-11-2009 2:15am

PaulieD wrote: »

Nama, Fas, mass immigration all the same to me. The same people are getting screwed over by them all, the average Irish worker.

And what makes up the average Irish worker these days? The Nigerian taximan? The Polish pump attendant? The Latvian doorman? Or the male white, overpaid banker? Sometimes you got to realise that diversity is something not to be feared, opressed or hated.. the world is full of people who are your brothers & sisters. Some less well off, some better off.. but it's not the people that you should hate - it is the systems & the politics that inform your hatred that should be addressed.

K-9 · 14-11-2009 2:20am

PaulieD wrote: »

Nama, Fas, mass immigration all the same to me. The same people are getting screwed over by them all, the average Irish worker.

Benchmarking and Unions as well.

PaulieD · 14-11-2009 2:22am

starbelgrade wrote: »

the world is full of people who are your brothers & sisters. Some less well off, some better off.. but it's not the people that you should hate - it is the systems & the politics that inform your hatred that should be addressed.

Right...... back to the real world.

Does Ireland have an infinite capacity to absorb immigrants? In your opinion, how many more of my brothers and sisters should be allowed enter the Irish state?

starbelgrade · 14-11-2009 2:25am

PaulieD wrote: »

Right...... back to the real world.

Does Ireland have an infinite capacity to absorb immigrants? In your opinion, how many more of my brothers and sisters should be allowed enter the Irish state?

How long is a piece of string?

PaulieD · 14-11-2009 2:27am

starbelgrade wrote: »

How long is a piece of string?

Please give me a ball park figure to my question.

starbelgrade · 14-11-2009 2:35am

PaulieD wrote: »

Please give me a ball park figure to my question.

3 metres. Of string.

johnathan woss · 14-11-2009 3:35am

starbelgrade I'll ask a question that you may feel easier to answer;

what do you think is an ideal population for Ireland (the Republic) ?

deadhead13 · 14-11-2009 3:48am

There is only one Irish political party I know of that would support such a move here - the Immigration Control Platform. Their candidate didn't exactly get a resounding mandate in the local elections.

OldJay · 14-11-2009 10:12am

PaulieD wrote: »

Nama, Fas, mass immigration all the same to me. The same people are getting screwed over by them all, the average Irish worker.

The average Irish worker? If someone who has settled here works, pays taxes, sends their children to school in the community etc . . . just when do you give them the illustrious title of "the average Irish worker"?

OldJay · 14-11-2009 10:49am

PaulieD wrote: »

Nama, Fas, mass immigration all the same to me

Thats your problem, particularly with melodramatic 'qualifications' such as "mass" when discussing immigration.

djpbarry · 14-11-2009 10:54am

johnathan woss wrote: »

Does this mean that the oft-quoted on here "fact" that immigrants have to have been working for 2 years in ireland in order to get the full dole is false?

You need two years’ worth of social security ‘credits’, yes, but you can transfer contributions earned abroad. In such an event, the country in which those credits were earned makes a proportional contribution to your social welfare.

djpbarry · 14-11-2009 10:56am

PaulieD wrote: »

Also, remember that the eastern europeans employed could easily be replaced by Irish people on the dole…

Really? Well then, I shall inform my Bulgarian colleague immediately that her services are no longer required as you are aware of someone on the dole who is better equipped to conduct research into HPV gene expression than she is. Could you please forward the contact details of the relevant individual?

PaulieD wrote: »

Each and every opinion poll carried out since 2005 has shown that the majority of Irish people want further restrictions put on immigration.

Further restrictions were applied earlier this year – it is now even more difficult than before for non-EU/EEA nationals to secure a work permit.

PaulieD wrote: »

It doesnt surprise you that 62% of Nigerians are unemployed?

No, it doesn’t, because it’s not true.

PaulieD wrote: »

No, a moratoriumm on immigration for the for see able future would be an obvious solution. Too obvious, it seems.

Just what we need to inspire confidence in our economy and demonstrate to the business leaders of the world that Ireland is well and truly open for business!

PaulieD wrote: »

Does Ireland have an infinite capacity to absorb immigrants?

No. Which is probably why we are experiencing net emigration at present.

Any chance you could answer some of my earlier questions?

johnathan woss · 14-11-2009 11:50am

djpbarry wrote: »

You need two years’ worth of social security ‘credits’, yes, but you can transfer contributions earned abroad. In such an event, the country in which those credits were earned makes a proportional contribution to your social welfare.

Ok so how does it work if a person works for 23 months in poland, 1 month here and is then sacked.
They would receive the Irish social welfare payment, yes?

I doubt very very much that the Polish government would pay 23/24 of the Irish social welfare payment in this hypothetical scenario, so how does it work?

Would the Polish government contribute to this hypothetical person's child benefits and other benefits ?

Dr_Phil · 14-11-2009 12:03pm

johnathan woss wrote: »

Ok so how does it work if a person works for 23 months in poland

Why Poland again? Is this some sort of obsession on Boards, pure ignorance or simply lack of knowledge of other european countries?

No offence, I'm just curious.

Denmark paying immigrants to go home

Comments