Denmark paying immigrants to go home

johnathan woss

Dr_Phil wrote: »

Why Poland again? Is this some sort of obsession on Boards, pure ignorance or simply lack of knowledge of other european countries?

No offence, I'm just curious.

Why so sensitive ?

How about you insert *any EU country* for Poland and answer my questions ?

Nodin

johnathan woss wrote: »

Why so sensitive ?

How about you insert *any EU country* for Poland and answer my questions ?

What exactly is the point of going through all the EU countries?
Do you wait till you see a system you like and then say 'Look!!! They do it that way, so we're wrong to do it our way !!!!!!!'?

Dr_Phil

johnathan woss wrote: »

Why so sensitive ?

Sensitive? Not at all. Just curious as I said. Honestly I couldn't care less what you think about Poland... Just repetitiveness of this narrowminded scheme Problems=Immigration=Foreigners=Non Nationals=Eastern Europe=Poland is quite dull and ... seems a bit stupid to me.

johnathan woss

I used Poland as an example because the Polish are the largest group from the accession states that are here. That seems a logical thing to do to me.

Anyway, can anybody clarify how much the Polish government would contribute in my example ?

opo

deadhead13 wrote: »

There is only one Irish political party I know of that would support such a move here - the Immigration Control Platform. Their candidate didn't exactly get a resounding mandate in the local elections.

What kind of a mandate do you think the loony tunes RAR style candidates would get if they even had the bottle to put their policies and people to public vote?

PaulieD

Dr_Phil wrote: »

Why Poland again? Is this some sort of obsession on Boards, pure ignorance or simply lack of knowledge of other european countries?

No offence, I'm just curious.

Curious> Its the sheer number of Poles who have landed on our shores over the past five year.

In a small ickle island like Ireland, its kind of noticeable. :rolleyes:

Liam Byrne

starbelgrade wrote: »

I wish someone would pay me to leave Ireland.

No such luck; the Fianna Failure version is that they pay the banks with your money so that you can't afford to leave.....EVER!!!!!

Dr_Phil

PaulieD wrote: »

Curious> Its the sheer number of Poles who have landed on our shores over the past five year.

In a small ickle island like Ireland, its kind of noticeable. :rolleyes:

Kind of noticable is that 90% people wouldn't have a damn clue of what EE country the person is from. As an average, for 3/4/5 eastern europeans I'm passing by on the street only 1 speeks Polish - the rest seem to be from Slovakia, Romania, Lithuania, etc. I understand that they are all "Polish" and that's why I asked if isn't it a bit ignorant to brand them all Polish. Same with the opposite (which - believe me - happens on regular basis in EE countries):

- "I live in Dublin, Ireland"
- "And how are you getting on there in England?"

But fair enough, I asked and got the answer that makes sense. Cheers.

deadhead13

opo wrote: »

What kind of a mandate do you think the loony tunes RAR style candidates would get if they even had the bottle to put their policies and people to public vote?

I don't know, who are the "loony tunes RAR style candidates"?

opo

deadhead13 wrote: »

I don't know, who are the "loony tunes RAR style candidates"?

To condense - racism obsessed - open borders advocates.

PCDave

I really get annoyed when I hear stories on the radio of social welfare fraud which, in my opinion, makes a lot of Irish people tar all immigrants,unfairly, with the same brush. I have absolutely no problem with someone coming to Ireland to work, what i do have a problem with is someone over here for our fantastic social welfare system. If our social welfare system worked aswell as our revenue system works could you imagine the amount of money we'd save.
I never understood why they don't clamp down on social welfare fraud as hard as they do on tax evasion.It's really just a case of trying to get as much as you can from the social welfare by hook or by crrok and if youre caught then "what the heck, we gave it a go anyway".
I'm from Tralee and know of a case where a single mother of multiple children was given an ex-bank managers house as her free social welfare house,I mean guys, where are we going when we are at this stage.
I don't care what anyone says, it is not everyone's constitutional right to a free house.How about you don't move out of home and move in with your boyfriend, how about you pratcice birth control and not get pregnant? Any woman can get pregnant by accident, I totally accept that but if it is constantly happening to you then I'm sorry, you're responsible, not the irish tax payer, I have enough to be paying for without your family too.
I'm married and have one kid and my wife an I have to think of the costs of having a second child.We have mortgage and bills to pay like everyone on the the social welfare excpet we have to go out and work our 50 hours a week in order to make ends meet.
SF were protesting on the streets of Tralee last Saturday handing out flyers on how unfair it was that people on long term unemployment are being hard done by, by not getting the "double" payment for Christmas week.I thought to myself, if they put half as much effort into finding a job as they do protesting then they might be better off.
I think people should be told when signing on that they have 1 year to find a job and after that they are cut off,there is absolutely no incentives to going back to work. If people were asked to join teams to tidy the town for the tidy towns competition or some other worth while activity they may have more respect for the place in which they live. Why is it so absurd that people should have to work to earn their dole payments?

Nodin

opo wrote: »

To condense - racism obsessed - open borders advocates.

Really? - You wouldn't have a link to their policies would you?

opo

Nodin wrote: »

Really? - You wouldn't have a link to their policies would you?

None that you can't find.

Nodin

opo wrote: »

None that you can't find.

I can't find anything about "open borders" so obviously you're one up on me. Would you care to link to it?

opo

Nodin wrote: »

I can't find anything about "open borders" so obviously you're one up on me. Would you care to link to it?

Yes dear.

KindOfIrish

PaulieD wrote: »

Right...... back to the real world.

Does Ireland have an infinite capacity to absorb immigrants? In your opinion, how many more of my brothers and sisters should be allowed enter the Irish state?

Polish, Latvians, Lithuanians etc are not really immigrants. They are all Europeans as we are. They just moving around Europe and have unquestionable right to do it (as we Irish have).
As those from outside EU there are not so many of them here compare to another EU countries.
Regards social welfare fraud: 70% cases contributed by our "brothers and sisters" from the North in the border counties!

K-9

KindOfIrish wrote: »

Regards social welfare fraud: 70% cases contributed by our "brothers and sisters" from the North in the border counties!

Not sure about 70% but there is a lot of it going on in Border areas.

Customs and Revenue where setting up checkpoints a few months back on people leaving SW offices and crossing the border. It was a win, win situation for them as the same Northerners claiming SW in the South usually drive Northern cars! So, if they claimed they lived in the South, VRT please!

PaulieD

KindOfIrish wrote: »

Polish, Latvians, Lithuanians etc are not really immigrants.

They are economic migrants.

KindOfIrish wrote: »

They are all Europeans as we are.

True, but they are still economic migrants. They are not Irish citizens.

KindOfIrish wrote: »

They just moving around Europe and have unquestionable right to do it (as we Irish have).

No, no they do not have unquestionable right to do it. Germany and Austria still imposes restrictions on the accession states citizens.

KindOfIrish wrote: »

As those from outside EU there are not so many of them here compare to another EU countries.

Not true.

KindOfIrish wrote: »

Regards social welfare fraud: 70% cases contributed by our "brothers and sisters" from the North in the border counties!

You will provide a link, wont you KindOfIrish? I kind of dont believe you.

starbelgrade

johnathan woss wrote: »

starbelgrade I'll ask a question that you may feel easier to answer;

what do you think is an ideal population for Ireland (the Republic) ?

I could pick a figure, but it would be irrelevant. My point is not that immigration should not be controlled - or in the very least, discussed. My point is that it should be done so without bringing into the debate who is or who is not "sponging" off the state. That is a different debate altogether.

If you want to skew it even further by introducing an "ideal population" for the Republic - where do you stop? Do you limit families to the number of children they have?

Or do you debate the real issues?

PaulieD

Ireland seems to be doing the same.

A spokeswoman told the Observer this weekend that the scheme will only apply to non-EU nationals living in the Republic and would involve the department spending almost €600,000 this year to pay for immigrants and their families to return to nations outside the European Union.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/nov/15/ireland-pay-immigrants-go-home

I wish them a safe journey home. Lets hope we close the door, to unskilled immigrants wishing to enter the state too. However this paragraph caught my eye, especially the text in bold.....




However, according to the Republic's central statistics office, about 18% of Ireland's inhabitants are now non-nationals.
Most of them are from eastern Europe, China, Brazil and west Africa or are British citizens who have settled on the island.
Some academics, such as Dr Bryan Fanning of University College Dublin, estimate that the real figure is more than 20%, meaning Ireland's "foreign" citizens make up over one fifth of the Republic's entire population.

djpbarry

PaulieD wrote: »

Ireland seems to be doing the same.

A spokeswoman told the Observer this weekend that the scheme will only apply to non-EU nationals living in the Republic and would involve the department spending almost €600,000 this year to pay for immigrants and their families to return to nations outside the European Union.

They seem to be referring to the Voluntary Repatriation Scheme? That's nothing new?

PaulieD wrote: »

However, according to the Republic's central statistics office, about 18% of Ireland's inhabitants are now non-nationals.

I'd love to see their source for that claim. Using the 2006 census as a basis and incorporating CSO's population and migration estimates since then puts the non-Irish contingent at about 12%. We should probably prevent Irish people from emigrating so that figure doesn't get any higher, eh?

PaulieD

djpbarry wrote: »

They seem to be referring to the Voluntary Repatriation Scheme? That's nothing new?

I am awaiting the Irish media to pick up and report on the scheme to see whats what.

djpbarry wrote: »

I'd love to see their source for that claim.

The CSO.

djpbarry wrote: »

Using the 2006 census as a basis and incorporating CSO's population and migration estimates since then puts the non-Irish contingent at about 12%.

That was grossly inaccurate and the census was three years ago.

djpbarry wrote: »

We should probably prevent Irish people from emigrating so that figure doesn't get any higher, eh?

70,000 foreigners acquired PPS numbers this year so far. Time to shut up shop so Irish citizens will not be forced to search abroad for employment.

djpbarry

PaulieD wrote: »

I am awaiting the Irish media to pick up and report on the scheme to see whats what.

I’m guessing the Irish media haven’t “picked up” on the scheme because it’s not exactly news. The voluntary repatriation programme has been in operation since at least 2001.

PaulieD wrote: »

The CSO.

Funny that – the CSO was my source too. I don’t see any way of cooking their figures that gives a non-national contingent of 18%. Perhaps you could enlighten?

PaulieD wrote: »

That was grossly inaccurate and the census was three years ago.

What was grossly inaccurate? Figures published by the CSO? The same CSO that has been cited in your article?

PaulieD wrote: »

70,000 foreigners acquired PPS numbers this year so far.

And yet the number of non-Irish nationals in the labour force is declining rapidly. Hmm....

K-9

djpbarry wrote: »

I’m guessing the Irish media haven’t “picked up” on the scheme because it’s not exactly news. The voluntary repatriation programme has been in operation since at least 2001.
Funny that – the CSO was my source too. I don’t see any way of cooking their figures that gives a non-national contingent of 18%. Perhaps you could enlighten?
What was grossly inaccurate? Figures published by the CSO? The same CSO that has been cited in your article?
And yet the number of non-Irish nationals in the labour force is declining rapidly. Hmm....

Look, apparently 40% of SW claims are from immigrants because some man wrote a letter into the Sunday Business Post!

You couldn't make it up!

O'Morris

djpbarry wrote:

They seem to be referring to the Voluntary Repatriation Scheme? That's nothing new?

It seems to be a new scheme. The article in the observer says the Department of Justice is "opening an EU-funded project to persuade foreign workers and asylum seekers to return to their country of origin."

djpbarry wrote:

We should probably prevent Irish people from emigrating so that figure doesn't get any higher, eh?

We could do that or maybe we could make an effort to try to reduce the numbers of jobseekers entering the country and encourage unemployed non-nationals to return home?

djpbarry wrote:

What was grossly inaccurate? Figures published by the CSO? The same CSO that has been cited in your article?

The CSO wasn't the only source cited in the article. The article also cited Dr Bryan Fanning of UCD who estimates that the non-national figure could be higher than 20%.

djpbarry wrote:

And yet the number of non-Irish nationals in the labour force is declining rapidly. Hmm....

Do you have a source with the most recent figures on this?

djpbarry

O'Morris wrote: »

It seems to be a new scheme. The article in the observer says the Department of Justice is "opening an EU-funded project to persuade foreign workers and asylum seekers to return to their country of origin."

In which case, information on this new scheme should be readily available on the website of the Department of Justice, one would have thought.

O'Morris wrote: »

We could do that or maybe we could make an effort to try to reduce the numbers of jobseekers entering the country and encourage unemployed non-nationals to return home?

I’ve asked this before, on this thread and several others, but I don’t believe I’ve ever received a response; what is the point in spending time and money (money that we cannot afford) regulating something that is quite clearly regulating itself? Can anyone demonstrate that paying immigrants to return home will benefit us economically in the long run?

O'Morris wrote: »

The CSO wasn't the only source cited in the article. The article also cited Dr Bryan Fanning of UCD who estimates that the non-national figure could be higher than 20%.

Well, considering the interpretation of CSO figures is wildly inaccurate (probably deliberately so) I have no reason to believe that Dr. Fanning has been accurately quoted. In fact, he hasn’t been quoted at all.

O'Morris wrote: »

Do you have a source with the most recent figures on this?

The latest QNHS shows that the number of non-Irish nationals in the labour force has declined by just over 7% in 12 months. The non-Irish contingent of the work force stands at approximately 12.6%, some way short of the 18% referred to be the Guardian.

O'Morris

djpbarry wrote:

I’ve asked this before, on this thread and several others, but I don’t believe I’ve ever received a response; what is the point in spending time and money (money that we cannot afford) regulating something that is quite clearly regulating itself?

Immigration is not regulating itself. If immigration was regulating itself we should expect to see levels of immigration across Europe negatively correlated with levels of unemployment. Ireland has among the highest levels of unemployment in Europe - do we have among the lowest levels of immigration in Europe? If immigration was regulating itself why have tens of thousands of foreigners applied for PPS numbers to work here so far this year even though we have hundreds of thousands of people out of work and we have thousands of Irish people leaving the country because they can't find work here?

Along with the "soft-landing" to the housing boom and the self-regulating finance sector, the claim that immigration was self-regulating and that immigrants would stop coming here once the jobs dried up has been shown to be false.

djpbarry wrote:

Can anyone demonstrate that paying immigrants to return home will benefit us economically in the long run?

I can't demonstrate that paying immigrants to return home will benefit us economically but I can demonstrate that reducing the number of jobseekers entering the country will help us to reduce unemployment.

djpbarry wrote:

Well, considering the interpretation of CSO figures is wildly inaccurate (probably deliberately so) I have no reason to believe that Dr. Fanning has been accurately quoted.

The Guardian and Observer are liberal newspapers who generally take a pro-immigration line. I find it very hard to believe that they would either deliberately or mistakenly misrepresent two separate and reputable sources to try and show that Ireland's non-national population is much higher than it is.

joseph brand

PaulieD wrote: »

Curious> Its the sheer number of Poles who have landed on our shores over the past five year.

In a small ickle island like Ireland, its kind of noticeable. :rolleyes:

I remember hearing a figure of 400,000 Polish here at one stage. (The Herald even brought in a Polski section to cater for the influx).

Anyway, I hate that you cant mention 'The Elephant in The Room' without seeming like you're discriminating. That is a massive amount for a small Island of around 4 million, if even?? You can't argue with the figures.

Also, the attack on Jimmy Doyle by three young foreign nationals from Latvia and Lithuania which resulted in his death and hospitalisation of his cousin, in Gorey Co. Wexford.

This really does nothing for hard working immigrants.

I just wanna praise the hard working Chinese who are here for decades and don't seem to be collecting the dole or getting involved in crime. That's how it's done. :D

herya

joseph brand wrote: »

I remember hearing a figure of 400,000 Polish here at one stage. (The Herald even brought in a Polski section to cater for the influx).

It's ca 150k now for all accession states, and the Herald supplement is history

joseph brand wrote: »

Also, the attack on Jimmy Doyle by three young foreign nationals from Latvia and Lithuania which resulted in his death and hospitalisation of his cousin, in Gorey Co. Wexford.

I'm genuinely curious what is the rate of crimes committed by non-nationals and does it match the 12-20% (whatever it is) figure of foreigners to native Irish citizens? I'm not attacking you btw, just asking.

O'Morris

herya wrote: »

I'm genuinely curious what is the rate of crimes committed by non-nationals and does it match the 12-20% (whatever it is) figure of foreigners to native Irish citizens? I'm not attacking you btw, just asking.

According to this, non-nationals make up around 30% of our prison population.