Denmark paying immigrants to go home

herya

O'Morris wrote: »

According to this, non-nationals make up around 30% of our prison population.

Very interesting. I wonder what's the reason for the disproportion? Do you have any stats split by the nature of the crime, the length of incarceration etc?

djpbarry

O'Morris wrote: »

Immigration is not regulating itself.

Isn’t it? Immigration is falling and emigration is rising, are they not? Is that purely a coincidence, or may it have something to do with our current economic malaise?

O'Morris wrote: »

Along with the "soft-landing" to the housing boom and the self-regulating finance sector, the claim that immigration was self-regulating and that immigrants would stop coming here once the jobs dried up has been shown to be false.

I don’t recall anyone saying that immigration would stop completely. What was said was that immigration would fall. And it has fallen. It currently stands at a similar level to that observed at the beginning of the decade and it is expected to fall further next year. Meanwhile, emigration is rising to the sort of levels witnessed in the late 80’s.

O'Morris wrote: »

I can't demonstrate that paying immigrants to return home will benefit us economically...

So where’s the benefit?

O'Morris wrote: »

... but I can demonstrate that reducing the number of jobseekers entering the country will help us to reduce unemployment.

I’m not convinced of that at all (less people = less consumers), but anyway, the number of people entering the country is reducing.

O'Morris wrote: »

The Guardian and Observer are liberal newspapers who generally take a pro-immigration line. I find it very hard to believe that they would either deliberately or mistakenly misrepresent two separate and reputable sources to try and show that Ireland's non-national population is much higher than it is.

I don’t really care what the reputation of the publication is – the figures published by the CSO do not substantiate their claim.

djpbarry

O'Morris wrote: »

According to this, non-nationals make up around 30% of our prison population.

More bull****. According to the Irish Prison Service Annual Report of 2008, Irish nationals make up almost 90% of the prison population in this country.

herya

djpbarry wrote: »

More bull****. According to the Irish Prison Service Annual Report of 2008, Irish nationals make up almost 90% of the prison population in this country.

Oh. How come they got 30% out of it then?

PaulieD

joseph brand wrote: »

Also, the attack on Jimmy Doyle by three young foreign nationals from Latvia and Lithuania which resulted in his death and hospitalisation of his cousin, in Gorey Co. Wexford.

That tragedy should not be used to back up ones point in an immigration debate. Have some respect for the deceased.

O'Morris

djpbarry wrote:

Isn’t it?

No, it isn't. If immigration was regulating itself we would expect to see immigration rates across Europe negatively correlated with the unemployment rates. Ireland has among the highest levels of unemployment in Europe, do we have among the lowest levels of immigration in Europe?

Tens of thousands of foreign jobseekers have applied for PPS numbers to work in this country since the start of the year even though we have hundreds of thousands of people out of work and we have thousands of Irish people leaving the country because they can't find work. And yet you expect me to believe that immigration is regulating itself?

djpbarry wrote:

So where’s the benefit?

The benefit is in getting unemployed people back into work. The fewer people there are in the country competing for jobs the more likely that people on the dole will be able to get their hands on those jobs. A reduction in the size of the welfare bill will lead to a reduction in the size of the budget deficit. As well as that, Irish people employed in this country are more likely than foreigners to spend their disposable income in this country.

djpbarry wrote:

I don’t really care what the reputation of the publication is – the figures published by the CSO do not substantiate their claim.

The figures published by the CSO that you're referring to have to do with the size of the labour force. The figures mentioned in the Observer article relate to the size of overall population. The labour force figures do not include the number of dependents who are not part of the labour.

djpbarry wrote:

More bull****. According to the Irish Prison Service Annual Report of 2008, Irish nationals make up almost 90% of the prison population in this country.

Are you sure you're not confusing the Irish Prison Service Annual Report with the census? According to the article I linked to:

FIGURES contained in the most recent Irish Prison Service Report show that the number of non-Irish prisoners incarcerated is a staggering 30 per cent of the entire prison population. Between 2005 and 2006 this rose by 5 per cent.

In the last census the figure for non-Irish nationals held in our jails was only 10 per cent -- yet foreign nationals now make up almost a third of our prison population.

herya

O'Morris wrote: »

Are you sure you're not confusing the Irish Prison Service Annual Report with the census? According to the article I linked to:

I checked the original report, available here:
http://www.irishprisons.ie/documents/IPSannualreport2008e_000.pdf

It says:

As regards nationality, Irish nationals accounted for 89.8% of the total number of persons in custody under sentence on the 5th December 2008.

I still don't know where 30% comes from...

Edited: OK I know now. 30% comes from committal stats - 70.3% committals are Irish, it's actually an increase of 19.1% with regard to previous year.

Committal stats, however, include short term immigation related committals (73% spent less than 8 days in custody) of which there were 1034 out of 13557 committals (10928 persons) total.

KindOfIrish

djpbarry wrote: »

More bull****. According to the Irish Prison Service Annual Report of 2008, Irish nationals make up almost 90% of the prison population in this country.

I'm sure that another 9% are UK nationals. And just 1 % from outside the isles.

herya

KindOfIrish wrote: »

I'm sure that another 9% are UK nationals. And just 1 % from outside the isles.

Actually UK is 2.4%, other EU 3.9%, Africa 2%, other continents are under 1%. That's under sentence stats.

djpbarry

O'Morris wrote: »

If immigration was regulating itself we would expect to see immigration rates across Europe negatively correlated with the unemployment rates.

I think it’s more accurate to say that relative unemployment will influence migration. For example, if unemployment is lower in the UK than in Ireland, it is likely that net migration will take place from Ireland to the UK. If unemployment is lower in Ireland, then the opposite will likely be true.

O'Morris wrote: »

Ireland has among the highest levels of unemployment in Europe, do we have among the lowest levels of immigration in Europe?

Why are you looking at immigration in isolation? You yourself said that “we have thousands of Irish people leaving the country because they can't find work here”. So unemployment (or more broadly, the health of the economy) influences emigration, but not immigration? Do you not accept that immigration is falling and emigration is rising at present? Is it not reasonable to conclude that this is likely a result of our current economic situation?

O'Morris wrote: »

Tens of thousands of foreign jobseekers have applied for PPS numbers to work in this country since the start of the year...

How many entered the workforce? How many are still here?

O'Morris wrote: »

The benefit is in getting unemployed people back into work. The fewer people there are in the country competing for jobs the more likely that people on the dole will be able to get their hands on those jobs.

That’s a little simplistic – the fewer people there are in the country, the fewer people there are to create jobs, either directly or indirectly.

O'Morris wrote: »

A reduction in the size of the welfare bill will lead to a reduction in the size of the budget deficit.

Wait now – how much is your new regulatory system going to cost us?

O'Morris wrote: »

The figures published by the CSO that you're referring to have to do with the size of the labour force.

Nope – I’m going by the population and migration estimates, using the census figures as a baseline.

O'Morris wrote: »

Are you sure you're not confusing the Irish Prison Service Annual Report with the census?

Yes, I'm sure.

Nodin

opo wrote: »

Yes dear.

So you're just making a claim with no foundation in reality then....

O'Morris wrote:

According to this, non-nationals make up around 30% of our prison population. .

That's been gone over and disproved before. I would hope you weren't the one who was involved in the previous discussion.

opo

Nodin wrote: »

So you're just making a claim with no foundation in reality then....

What are you banging on about now?

PaulieD

KindOfIrish wrote: »

I'm sure that another 9% are UK nationals. And just 1 % from outside the isles.

Yeah, just like you were sure that 70% of welfare fraud was committed by those residing in Northern Ireland? :rolleyes:

Nodin

opo wrote: »

What are you banging on about now?

Your failure to substantiate your claim re "RAR".

opo

Nodin wrote: »

Your failure to substantiate your claim re "RAR".

:eek:

PaulieD

Nodin wrote: »

Your failure to substantiate your claim re "RAR".

There chanting of "No Nations, No Borders, No Deportations" kinda gives the game away. Member yourself, Nod?

Nodin

PaulieD wrote: »

There chanting of "No Nations, No Borders, No Deportations" kinda gives the game away. Member yourself, Nod?

Theres nothing on their site about it, at all, and anecdotes don't really cut it. I presumed there was some interview he was referring to, but no, its just the usual hyperbole.

Why would I ask about evidence for their policies if I was a member? Or is that just the employment of the usual 'if not x, must equal y' "logic"?

Neamhshuntasach

Overheal wrote: »

Oh nothing too controversial. Just nothing diplomatic. If you get me. Authority figures can be very gruff people, that and the foot long list of material I need to supply for my visas (proof of address proof of income proof of savings (you need to provide a bank statement proving you have at least 3k Euro available), Proof of Enrollment, proof of Educational Attendance By percentage of Days in session vs. Days missed, 2 forms of ID, etc. etc.) and those are just the ones I can remember. Proof of Address, being the most abstractly annoying document on earth; especially when trying to attend college and you have no mailed bills in your name. Thats on top of the attitude the officers give you.

Then of course in that same year Paypal EU froze my account and all my funds for 6 weeks because apparently getting paid monthly from the US is viewed as potential fraud. Finding a scanner to provide 2 forms of ID to them,(and the proof of address) was quite the adventure in itself. Youd figure paypal would be quicker about processing that sort of shyte. But no, apparently 6 weeks is the going rate.

edit: Oh, and proof of Private Health Insurance. I'll think of more..

The fact that I had lived there 7 of the previous 7 years counted for feck all because it was all as a Student.

I had to jump through the same hoops when i went to the US. Actually worse. I never got issued with my social security number for 6 weeks so i couldn't work and ended up eating into my savings and had to change residence as i couldn't afford the one i was in. Of course changing address was a nightmare paperwork wise. And going home or just crossing back from Mexico into San Diego i always seemed to catach an immigration officer on their worst day.

I won't even go into the process of obtaining the visa in the first place. Interviews, documents, proof of this and that.

Immigration issues are just a pain in the arse everywhere. Especially when moving long term.

PaulieD

Nodin wrote: »

Theres nothing on their site about it, at all, and anecdotes don't really cut it. I presumed there was some interview he was referring to, but no, its just the usual hyperbole.

Why would I ask about evidence for their policies if I was a member? Or is that just the employment of the usual 'if not x, must equal y' "logic"?

They are out in force today in Westmoreland Street. Go for a wander and ask them yourself.

opo

PaulieD wrote: »

They are out in force today in Westmoreland Street. Go for a wander and ask them yourself.

+1

God knows, it might break the monotony for them - of just standing there being ignored by almost everyone else.

PaulieD

opo wrote: »

+1

God knows, it might break the monotony for them - of just standing there being ignored by almost everyone else.

They are quite amusing, you should stop and chat with them sometime. I highly recommend it.

opo

PaulieD wrote: »

They are quite amusing, you should stop and chat with them sometime. I highly recommend it.

:eek:

What would I talk about?

Without knowing their "policies", as Nodin implies, It would be extremely difficult to know what they actually stand for or why they are there

To be as confused (and as self-righteous) as Nodin is not a pleasant thought.

Nodin

opo wrote: »

:eek:



To be as confused (and as self-righteous) as Nodin is not a pleasant thought.

O I'm not confused at all, at all. You made a claim, I found no evidence of it and - when requested - you (who one would presume would know of some) couldn't produce any. Pointing out that you can't back up your claim is not being self righteous. If I am 'guilty' of something, it's of stating the obvious.

bonkey

Enough of the personal remarks, lads

opo

Nodin wrote: »

O I'm not confused at all, at all. You made a claim, I found no evidence of it and - when requested - you (who one would presume would know of some) couldn't produce any. Pointing out that you can't back up your claim is not being self righteous. If I am 'guilty' of something, it's of stating the obvious.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

I think you are spreading yourself a bit thin and losing track of what is being said. I don't indulge those that choose their own subthreads or take statements out of context or embellish statements to mean something other than what was originally said or meant. If you have a point to make - then feel free to make it. Stop appointing yourself overlord of every thread you go near. Leave that to those who have earned it.

Nodin

opo wrote: »

I have no idea what you are talking about.

An update then.

opo wrote:

To condense - racism obsessed - open borders advocates.

Nodin wrote:

Really? - You wouldn't have a link to their policies would you?

opo wrote:

None that you can't find.

Nodin wrote:

I can't find anything about "open borders" so obviously you're one up on me. Would you care to link to it?

opo wrote:

Yes dear.

Nodin wrote:

So you're just making a claim with no foundation in reality then....

opo wrote:

What are you banging on about now? ....

Clear enough?

opo wrote:

Stop appointing yourself overlord of every thread you go near.....

The report post function is on the bottom left.

opo

Nodin wrote: »

An update then.















Clear enough?



The report post function is on the bottom left.

What are you banging on about now?

You have made no reference to the points I made.

If you feel you must continue to report posts then go right ahead.

AlekSmart

Oddly enough I had occassion to meet with that doyenne of the Immigration scene,Áine o Chonaill in North Earl Street last year.

The bould Áine had been "advised" by Gardai to move away from the GPO portico as her presence was causing "upset" to a selection of other representative groups who were touting their wares there also.

Anyway,in the course of a ten minute conversation with her,I found her to be very lucid and composed about her beliefs and her opinions on where the current policy was taking us.

At no point did I find her to be as Looney as she had often been portrayed in the mainstream media nor did she make any attempt to harrangue or force her views upon me.

My brush with ÁoC was recalled recently when I paused to view the Residents against Racism table on College Green.

To be honest I found Áine o C`s reasoning to be at least as cogent and worthy of reasoned debate as anything I saw on the RaR platform.

Just my 2c worth....


PS. Did I notice some of the RaR people protesting outside Barnardo`s fur shoppe some time back....?

opo

AlekSmart wrote: »

Oddly enough I had occassion to meet with that doyenne of the Immigration scene,Áine o Chonaill in North Earl Street last year.

The bould Áine had been "advised" by Gardai to move away from the GPO portico as her presence was causing "upset" to a selection of other representative groups who were touting their wares there also.

Anyway,in the course of a ten minute conversation with her,I found her to be very lucid and composed about her beliefs and her opinions on where the current policy was taking us.

At no point did I find her to be as Looney as she had often been portrayed in the mainstream media nor did she make any attempt to harrangue or force her views upon me.

My brush with ÁoC was recalled recently when I paused to view the Residents against Racism table on College Green.

To be honest I found Áine o C`s reasoning to be at least as cogent and worthy of reasoned debate as anything I saw on the RaR platform.

Just my 2c worth....


PS. Did I notice some of the RaR people protesting outside Barnardo`s fur shoppe some time back....?

I would go further and say that nothing that ÁoC advocates is expressed without a possibility of concrete translation into policy.

This is where nodin loses the plot as he appears more at ease with the fact that RAR style abstractions have little or nothing that can be translated into meaningful policy and/or debate never mind a political platform.

Which is why they would not even dream of seeking electoral support.

oscarBravo

opo wrote: »

What are you banging on about now?

You have made no reference to the points I made.

If you feel you must continue to report posts then go right ahead.

opo, if you have nothing to contribute to the discussion, don't post.