EU set to give Ireland until 2014 to meet its budget deficit target

seangal

seangal wrote: »

IBEC survey show that just 8% of private sector have take pay cut
100% of public sector have take pay cut so maybe it is time the other 92% take a cut to make us more competitive

What % of the private sector lost their jobs ? Would you be in favour of that % being rolled out in the public sector ? The 100% who took a paycut, what was that ? Surely you're not referring to the pension levy are you ? That's not a pay cut.

seangal

seangal wrote: »

point is we have to keep money in circulation
if we take 16 billion out over the next 3 years that has to to lead to lower sales of goods / services ect and has to lead to longer dole que.

If we keep borrowing we will have a dole queue for a longer time and in the end this money has to be paid back with interest so the taxes you need to pay for it are going to suck even more life out of the economy than cutbacks now will. So by not cutting you will have not only a longer dole queue but over a longer time.

irish_bob

seangal wrote: »

point is we have to keep money in circulation
if we take 16 billion out over the next 3 years that has to to lead to lower sales of goods / services ect and has to lead to longer dole que.

not if the cost of goods and services fall in price , this country needs deflation but high wages and wellfare are holding it back

irish_bob

seangal wrote: »

but not all prices are going down
like it still cost me €60 euro to go a doctor
we are still being ripped of my private sector here and they have slashed jobs to protect profit
IBEC survey show that just 8% of private sector have take pay cut
100% of public sector have take pay cut so maybe it is time the other 92% take a cut to make us more competitive

the public sector all work for the one employer , thier are thousands of employers in the private sector , you hardly expect them all to enforce collective pay cuts on mass for the sole purpose of showing unity with the public sector

ryanair have showed increased profits this year , they are hardly going to cut thier staffs wages , constrast this with almost every car sales business in the country ( 80% drop in business ) and im pretty sure those working in this area saw substantial pay cuts , its not comparing like with like , expecting universal pay cuts in the private sector just because thier has been an across the board pay cut in the public sector and besides , wages in the public sector even after the pension levy are still way ahead of the private sector on average and thier has been a quater of a million job losses in the private sector compared to something like 3000 temporary staff let go in the public , the private sector has seen the lions share of pain from this rescession so far , no one could possibly deny this

as for the costs of goods in the south compared to the north , thier a multple of reasons why this is the case

weak sterling
much higher minimum wages in the south
much higher local authority rates in the south ( which go towards paying ps worker btw ) which retailers have to pay
higher vat
higher energy costs due to average esb staff earning 90 k per anum
its simply not a level playing pitch , every single pound spent up north goes towards making the uk richer and goes towards building hospitals and roads for those who live in the uk , it takes from this country and reduces our capacity to build hospitals or roads etc , its short term thinking

murphaph

seangal wrote: »

well if we dont get the wages we dont have it to spend to keep you in a job
The way you are talking you would think that the 21 billion the public sector gets is just put in the bank.
I provide a service to the state i get paid for it and i spend it in the private sector to keep them in jobs

You fundamentally fail to grasp how export driven market economies work. Public sector workers (while required, don't get me wrong) do NOT (in 99% of the case) generate a penny of wealth for Ireland. ONLY the exporting of goods and services generates wealth for the nation. This ALL comes from the private sector.

If you think that public sector workers spending their borrowed (from the ECB) wages in private sector shops keeps the Irish economy afloat then you're worse than those who believed the building boom was sustainable. Dear oh dear.

Head The Wall

murphaph wrote: »

You fundamentally fail to grasp how export driven market economies work. Public sector workers (while required, don't get me wrong) do NOT (in 99% of the case) generate a penny of wealth for Ireland. ONLY the exporting of goods and services generates wealth for the nation. This ALL comes from the private sector.

If you think that public sector workers spending their borrowed (from the ECB) wages in private sector shops keeps the Irish economy afloat then you're worse than those who believed the building boom was sustainable. Dear oh dear.

Seangal you havn't a clue.

Public sector are only one fifth roughly of the workforce so you are only a small market share of what drives the private Sector and you go on about the price of a Doctors visit like only PS people pay it. We don't get a discount just because we work in the private sector, if you can believe it we have to pay the same prices as you.

Government driven services e.g rates, healthcare etc are the main prices that have not gone down but up in the last year, why is that?

It could be to pay their own bills (PS pay/pensions, social and capital spending)

Absurdum

irish_bob wrote: »

higher energy costs due to average esb staff earning 90 k per anum

try looking at the real reasons , deregulation and fossil fuel dependence :rolleyes:

murphaph

Absurdum wrote: »

try looking at the real reasons , deregulation and fossil fuel dependence :rolleyes:

Cost of oil has fallen with the recession (as it almost always does)

NewDubliner

murphaph wrote: »

Cost of oil has fallen with the recession (as it almost always does)

Heard of hedging?

Oil is going back up in price and will become expensive due to demand from the BRICs and under-investment.

murphaph

Do you think ESB staff are overpaid compared to their counterparts in the rest of Europe, including Northern Ireland?

irish_bob

Absurdum wrote: »

try looking at the real reasons , deregulation and fossil fuel dependence :rolleyes:

so oil is cheaper in the north , is it

Absurdum

irish_bob wrote: »

so oil is cheaper in the north , is it

Did I say it was? Fossil fuel dependence isn't all about oil prices.

jetfiremuck

What people don't realize is that the weak us dollar is keeping oil prices low at the minute. As you all well know the tax and budget components on the basic crude price is being absorbed by the gov. If the euro starts to weaken fuel prices will escalate bringing inflation with it. Pressure on wages etc.

dresden8

irish_bob wrote: »

thousands of employers in the private sector , you hardly expect them all to enforce collective pay cuts on mass for the sole purpose of showing unity with the public sector

, the private sector has seen the lions share of pain from this rescession so far , no one could possibly deny this

You make the point that the private sector are not one homogenous group and then you claim they are a homogenous group for the purpose of "pain".

Some of the private sector are doing very well out of the recession.

All public servants have taken a cut in take home pay.

MaceFace

dresden8 wrote: »

You make the point that the private sector are not one homogenous group and then you claim they are a homogenous group for the purpose of "pain".

Some of the private sector are doing very well out of the recession.

All public servants have taken a cut in take home pay.

I have a serious question - what percentage of the public service receieved increments over the last 12 months and what was the average?

MaceFace

murphaph wrote: »

You fundamentally fail to grasp how export driven market economies work. Public sector workers (while required, don't get me wrong) do NOT (in 99% of the case) generate a penny of wealth for Ireland. ONLY the exporting of goods and services generates wealth for the nation. This ALL comes from the private sector.

IMHO you are simply wrong. Fire the public sector tomorrow and see how much wealth is created.
I don't know what you are trying to imply with this argument.

dresden8

MaceFace wrote: »

I have a serious question - what percentage of the public service receieved increments over the last 12 months and what was the average?

Increments were not as large as the pension levy.

Not all public servants got an increment.

What percentage of the private sector have received a pay cut?

What percentage of the private sector have received a pay rise?

What percentage of the private sector still receive their bonuses?

How much is paid to the private sector off the books? What is the real average private sector pay, we know what the public sector is, jimmmy spams it all over the board.

murphaph

dresden8 wrote: »

All public servants have taken a cut in take home pay.

What do you expect when your employer has to borrow 25 billion a year to stay afloat?

MrMicra

MaceFace wrote: »

IMHO you are simply wrong. Fire the public sector tomorrow and see how much wealth is created.
I don't know what you are trying to imply with this argument.

We should obviously close the Department of Foreign Affairs and stop the pensions of the civil servants who negotiated this extension. This is calculated treason and the deliberate destruction of the Irish race.

murphaph

MaceFace wrote: »

IMHO you are simply wrong. Fire the public sector tomorrow and see how much wealth is created.
I don't know what you are trying to imply with this argument.

How does Ireland Inc. get money?
-It exports goods and services
Does the public sector export anything itself?
-no

Public sector staff are there to serve the private sector and the rest of the public sector. They are required in a modern economy (to educate, nurse, protect people etc.) but do NOT generate the wealth. They are paid from the endeavours of private industry. It's the same the world over.

MaceFace

murphaph wrote: »

How does Ireland Inc. get money?
-It exports goods and services
Does the public sector export anything itself?
-no

Public sector staff are there to serve the private sector and the rest of the public sector. They are required in a modern economy (to educate, nurse, protect people etc.) but do NOT generate the wealth. They are paid from the endeavours of private industry. It's the same the world over.

So you are claiming that only industries that export are generating wealth for this country?
Only a tiny proportion of the private sector are involved in exports so what about these?

ei.sdraob

MaceFace wrote: »

So you are claiming that only industries that export are generating wealth for this country?
Only a tiny proportion of the private sector are involved in exports so what about these?

figures?



we had 25% involved in construction (houses you cant export) fueling the domestic market and that went bust spectacularly

RealityCheck

Public sector v private sector bla bla bla :rolleyes:.

We are bankrupt people. With this sort of s*** its no wonder we are so screwed :mad:.

murphaph

MaceFace wrote: »

So you are claiming that only industries that export are generating wealth for this country?

Yes. Ireland has demonstrated with aplomb that you CANNOT generate wealth for the nation by buying and selling things internally! Did you not see what happened with house building when we tried that???

MaceFace wrote: »

Only a tiny proportion of the private sector are involved in exports so what about these?

I would strongly disagree with your assertion that only a tiny proportion of the private sector are involved in exports. Where do you think your wages come from? The Central Bank's printing presses in Sandyford?

Anyhow, that part of the private sector not involved in exports (shop assistants, GPs, etc.) fulfill a role similar to the public sector in that they service the export led economy. People working in factories exporting goods to earn wealth for Ireland Inc. need to buy food from shop assistants to eat and need nurses when they are sick. Neither sector (domestic retail) or healthcare makes one cent in income for Ireland Inc. but they are still required. The difference between the shop assistant and the nurse is that the shop assistant will get the bullet if his/her employer isn't able t make ends meet, whereas you seem to want the nurses employer to keep borrowing her salary ad infinitum??

eoinbn

MaceFace wrote: »

So you are claiming that only industries that export are generating wealth for this country?
Only a tiny proportion of the private sector are involved in exports so what about these?

Our exports are huge, and are far in excess of our imports- well over €100bn a year in exports, while our imports are below €100bn.

There is unneccessary public sector bashing here, but also a lack of understanding from some PS workers. The private sector is directly responsible for generating the wealth, while the PS is indirectly responsible. For example if our teachers decided to pack up and leave the sort-term consequences for our economy wouldn't really be that bad(the government could just hire A LOT of 'babysitters'!), but in the medium to long term our economy would be in ruins.

mrgaa1

eoinbn wrote: »

Our exports are huge, and are far in excess of our imports- well over €100bn a year in exports, while our imports are below €100bn.

There is unneccessary public sector bashing here, but also a lack of understanding from some PS workers. The private sector is directly responsible for generating the wealth, while the PS is indirectly responsible. For example if our teachers decided to pack up and leave the sort-term consequences for our economy wouldn't really be that bad(the government could just hire A LOT of 'babysitters'!), but in the medium to long term our economy would be in ruins.

so would it not then be fair to say that the private sector generated HUGE tax income for the government which it then in turned fueled a HUGE public spend increase. Therefore as the HUGE tax income does not exist anymore so the HUGE public spend must decrease.
The private sector may have generated the income for the government - who spent it and what was it spent on?
The public sector is heavily bloated with far too many workers, too many workers earning more than what they should be and a lot of inefficiencies exist. Time to face reality.

MaceFace

murphaph wrote: »

Yes. Ireland has demonstrated with aplomb that you CANNOT generate wealth for the nation by buying and selling things internally! Did you not see what happened with house building when we tried that???


I would strongly disagree with your assertion that only a tiny proportion of the private sector are involved in exports. Where do you think your wages come from? The Central Bank's printing presses in Sandyford?

Anyhow, that part of the private sector not involved in exports (shop assistants, GPs, etc.) fulfill a role similar to the public sector in that they service the export led economy. People working in factories exporting goods to earn wealth for Ireland Inc. need to buy food from shop assistants to eat and need nurses when they are sick. Neither sector (domestic retail) or healthcare makes one cent in income for Ireland Inc. but they are still required. The difference between the shop assistant and the nurse is that the shop assistant will get the bullet if his/her employer isn't able t make ends meet, whereas you seem to want the nurses employer to keep borrowing her salary ad infinitum??

I agree with the first part but my point is that just because you don't generate wealth for a country does not make you an impoortant part of society. Who cares if the public sector provide wealth?

BTW: That highlighted part - you assume wrong. I want to see wages across the economy to be brought back to realistic levels and that includes in Public Sector.

I am sick of the labelling of anyone in the public sector as overpaid workers who do nothing and those in the private sector as millionaires with weekly bonuses.

irish_bob

mrgaa1 wrote: »

so would it not then be fair to say that the private sector generated HUGE tax income for the government which it then in turned fueled a HUGE public spend increase. Therefore as the HUGE tax income does not exist anymore so the HUGE public spend must decrease.
The private sector may have generated the income for the government - who spent it and what was it spent on?
The public sector is heavily bloated with far too many workers, too many workers earning more than what they should be and a lot of inefficiencies exist. Time to face reality.

property developers and those builders who worked for them generated the revenue which allowed bertie to make our public sector the highest paid in the eu , it was not conventional income tax receipts which funded the level of spending in the public sector and it wont be income tax receipts which funds it now so thier has to be cuts

seangal

RoverJames wrote: »

What % of the private sector lost their jobs ? Would you be in favour of that % being rolled out in the public sector ? The 100% who took a paycut, what was that ? Surely you're not referring to the pension levy are you ? That's not a pay cut.

If it is not a pay cut what is it???
But one thing for sure it is not going in to my pension and before you go on and on we are paying 2/3 of the cost of our pension

seangal

murphaph wrote: »

You fundamentally fail to grasp how export driven market economies work. Public sector workers (while required, don't get me wrong) do NOT (in 99% of the case) generate a penny of wealth for Ireland. ONLY the exporting of goods and services generates wealth for the nation. This ALL comes from the private sector.

If you think that public sector workers spending their borrowed (from the ECB) wages in private sector shops keeps the Irish economy afloat then you're worse than those who believed the building boom was sustainable. Dear oh dear.

And who give the irish people a education to allow them to create wealth
Who keep there health in check
who keeps them safe
with out a public sector we would have no people creating wealth
The best wealth/ resource we have/ had in ireland was our young educated workforce created my i hard working public sector