EU set to give Ireland until 2014 to meet its budget deficit target

murphaph

seangal wrote: »

And who give the irish people a education to allow them to create wealth

Plenty of people without an education have built successful companies and plenty of educated people are on the dole. An education is wonderful and everyone should have the opportunity to get one, but to say an education "allows" Irish people to create wealth is too far.

seangal wrote: »

Who keep there health in check
who keeps them safe

See my posts above. We need doctors, nurses and police but they DO NOT generate wealth. We don't expect them to!

seangal wrote: »

with out a public sector we would have no people creating wealth

Wrong. The 'Public Sector' as we know it didn't exist a couple of hundred years ago yet the United Kingdom became the richest country on earth. No NHS, no organised police force etc. The chinese have limited access to the things you list yet are generating massive wealth for their country.

The best wealth/ resource we have/ had in ireland was our young educated workforce created my i hard working public sector[/QUOTE]
The public sector is there to support the private sector but in Ireland it is perversely the other way around!

NewDubliner

murphaph wrote: »

Wrong. The 'Public Sector' as we know it didn't exist a couple of hundred years ago yet the United Kingdom became the richest country on earth. No NHS, no organised police force etc. The chinese have limited access to the things you list yet are generating massive wealth for their country.

Didn't they become rich at that time by keeping the lower classes down and by aggressively exploiting other countries resources? Isn't that what more or less what the Chinese are doing now?

I assume you'll be volunteering to be one of the drone workers, locked in a factory, sleeiping with the machinery? Or will you be doing the 'junior oligarch' interview?

MaceFace

murphaph wrote: »

Plenty of people without an education have built successful companies and plenty of educated people are on the dole. An education is wonderful and everyone should have the opportunity to get one, but to say an education "allows" Irish people to create wealth is too far.


See my posts above. We need doctors, nurses and police but they DO NOT generate wealth. We don't expect them to!


Wrong. The 'Public Sector' as we know it didn't exist a couple of hundred years ago yet the United Kingdom became the richest country on earth. No NHS, no organised police force etc. The chinese have limited access to the things you list yet are generating massive wealth for their country.

The best wealth/ resource we have/ had in ireland was our young educated workforce created my i hard working public sector

The public sector is there to support the private sector but in Ireland it is perversely the other way around![/QUOTE]

What point are you trying to make - is this about who generates wealth or not?

The private sector is not there to support the public sector. Get a grip. The public sector is no different than the private sector but the unions have the masses rallied and the difference is that their employer can't just pull the plug and leave the country.
Don't make out that this country is any different than most other countries in the world.

Absurdum

murphaph wrote: »

Plenty of people without an education have built successful companies

Name one.

RealityCheck

seangal wrote: »

And who give the irish people a education to allow them to create wealth
Who keep there health in check
who keeps them safe
with out a public sector we would have no people creating wealth
The best wealth/ resource we have/ had in ireland was our young educated workforce created my i hard working public sector

I have to say you are missing the point. No one can discredit what the public sector do in the line of action. It is case of the private sector not being able to support the public sector. In days gone by it was'nt a problem as so much wealth was being created in the private sector that we could afford to have a well staffed and well funded public sector. The money has dried up and we must cut pay, numbers and conditions across the public sector because there is nothing there to support the status quo. People can talk about public sector bashing all they like, but the reality is we have no alternative, the numbers dont add up . Times are tough.

stereo_steve

Absurdum wrote: »

Name one.

Depends what you mean by no education really? No third level? No Junior Cert, No leaving?


Far too many with out third level to mention, here's a few ...

Bill Gates,
Michael Dell,
Paul Allen,
Richard Branson,

Absurdum

stereo_steve wrote: »

Depends what you mean by no education really? No third level? No Junior Cert, No leaving?


Far too many with out third level to mention, here's a few ...

Bill Gates,
Michael Dell,
Paul Allen,
Richard Branson,

Sorry, I meant in an Irish context, as per

Plenty of people without an education have built successful companies and plenty of educated people are on the dole. An education is wonderful and everyone should have the opportunity to get one, but to say an education "allows" Irish people to create wealth is too far.

And any education at all, since even junior infants class requires teachers.

jetfiremuck

Ideally the Gov should be revenue neutral.that is if they have a surplus over and above what it costs to operate the country then they have taxed too much and should reduce or reffund the tax payers who paid in.. The Gov can and will never do without, remember its the only entity thru the revenue commission that forces you to pay income tax or face prison/ fines if you refuse. The public sector are a cost of delivering services to the country. ie TV3 can survive without gov support whereas RTE need our licence fees and it still is losing money. Look at how effective Mr Binman is compared to the county councils regarding bin collection as an example

Absurdum

jetfiremuck wrote: »

Look at how effective Mr Binman is compared to the county councils regarding bin collection as an example

they are hardly a shining example of private sector wholesomeness

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0710/1224250387532.html

http://www.nationalist.ie/the/Mr-Binman-strike-escalates-as.5463336.jp?articlepage=2

P. Breathnach

jetfiremuck wrote: »

Ideally the Gov should be revenue neutral...

Back to economics class for you!

That attitude, which Charlie McCreevy in particular seemed to have, is one of the reasons why we got into the mess we are in. When things are overheating, as our property market did, the government should cool things down by taking money out of the market by taxation; when things need a boost, such surpluses are available to stoke the fires.

jetfiremuck

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Back to economics class for you!

That attitude, which Charlie McCreevy in particular seemed to have, is one of the reasons why we got into the mess we are in. When things are overheating, as our property market did, the government should cool things down by taking money out of the market by taxation; when things need a boost, such surpluses are available to stoke the fires.

Wrong. Lower interest rates from europe fuelled the availibilty of cheaper money re mortgages credit card rates and car loans. The Gov didnt lower tax rates or vat rates during that time, in fact the coffers were overflowing. Fast forward... where is all that money gone. Hospitals are still as bad as ever just as an example

P. Breathnach

jetfiremuck wrote: »

Wrong. Lower interest rates from europe fuelled the availibilty of cheaper money re mortgages credit card rates and car loans. The Gov didnt lower tax rates or vat rates during that time, in fact the coffers were overflowing. Fast forward... where is all that money gone. Hospitals are still as bad as ever just as an example

Not wrong.

The government did not budget for a surplus when it was the proper thing to do. Good strategic tax policies could have taken some of the heat out of the property market. Stamp duty was the worst kind of tax for many reasons (not just that it was an unreliable income flow, as we now see too clearly). It was generally funded by borrowing cheap European money, and so had insufficient impact on property values.

jetfiremuck

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Not wrong.

The government did not budget for a surplus when it was the proper thing to do. Good strategic tax policies could have taken some of the heat out of the property market. Stamp duty was the worst kind of tax for many reasons (not just that it was an unreliable income flow, as we now see too clearly). It was generally funded by borrowing cheap European money, and so had insufficient impact on property values.

Still wrong. The Gov makes policies on projected income/ actual income. They had more than enough coming in to the coffers to meet all the needs to run the country. Stamp duty is one of the many areas of income,like Vrt, Travel tax, etc. Stamp Duty was also rolled into the 100 percent mortgages that most people got anyway. Low down payments, Bank of Scotland having rates lower than the 3 main banks creating competition, looser lending criteria all contributed Most of these taxes are applied simply as a source of revenue without in my opinion any flexibility to alter quickly to changing market conditions the recent vat increase that is driving shoppers north as an example. .Lets assume that income tax rates, and just vat rates were lower due to prudent Gov spending that money that would be left in the economy(in peoples pockets) and in circulation would have shielded us somewhat from where we are now. Look at how low interest rates are at the minute and still no sign of life

P. Breathnach

jetfiremuck wrote: »

Still wrong. The Gov makes policies on projected income/ actual income. They had more than enough coming in to the coffers to meet all the needs to run the country. Stamp duty is one of the many areas of income,like Vrt, Travel tax, etc. Stamp Duty was also rolled into the 100 percent mortgages that most people got anyway. Low down payments, Bank of Scotland having rates lower than the 3 main banks creating competition, looser lending criteria all contributed Most of these taxes are applied simply as a source of revenue without in my opinion any flexibility to alter quickly to changing market conditions the recent vat increase that is driving shoppers north as an example. .Lets assume that income tax rates, and just vat rates were lower due to prudent Gov spending that money that would be left in the economy(in peoples pockets) and in circulation would have shielded us somewhat from where we are now. Look at how low interest rates are at the minute and still no sign of life

I don't understand what you are getting at, but I rather suspect that I'm not missing much if you think a 0.5% VAT increase was a significant factor in boosting cross-border shopping.

jetfiremuck

Its the perception to people that .5% vat increase ignored the fact that people feel that they are being ripped off now even more... Look at how Tesco reacted with price decreases, product line changes. I understand where you are coming from too and many people have practical ways to fix problems. My feeling is to do something anything to try to get it going whatever it takes.

seangal

murphaph wrote: »

Plenty of people without an education have built successful companies and plenty of educated people are on the dole. An education is wonderful and everyone should have the opportunity to get one, but to say an education "allows" Irish people to create wealth is too far.


See my posts above. We need doctors, nurses and police but they DO NOT generate wealth. We don't expect them to!


Wrong. The 'Public Sector' as we know it didn't exist a couple of hundred years ago yet the United Kingdom became the richest country on earth. No NHS, no organised police force etc. The chinese have limited access to the things you list yet are generating massive wealth for their country.

The best wealth/ resource we have/ had in ireland was our young educated workforce created my i hard working public sector

The public sector is there to support the private sector but in Ireland it is perversely the other way around![/quote]
murphaph that sums you up
delighted to see that you think the uK Is a county to look up to even worse china
Irelad had a boom because of our educated work force
Go ask any multinational why thery came to ireland in the late 1990 or early 2000
be greatfull for the fine education that our young people get for free or we could go down your routes and stop paying taxes and have our youth pay for education like the rich are doing

seangal

MaceFace wrote: »

The public sector is there to support the private sector but in Ireland it is perversely the other way around!

What point are you trying to make - is this about who generates wealth or not?

The private sector is not there to support the public sector. Get a grip. The public sector is no different than the private sector but the unions have the masses rallied and the difference is that their employer can't just pull the plug and leave the country.
Don't make out that this country is any different than most other countries in the world.[/quote]


well said
i think we know what murphaph is looking for when he look up to china and UK and his views
public sector is here to support the IRISH PEOPLE be it private or public sector and dont try a split our people in half

murphaph

seangal wrote: »

public sector is here to support the IRISH PEOPLE be it private or public sector and dont try a split our people in half

Strange that the HSE amongst others are all going to down tools (cancel operations etc. presumably) in a show of support for those paying their wages and those who used to pay their wages but have since lost their jobs.

NO PRIVATE SECTOR TAXES = NO PUBLIC SECTOR WAGES, got it?

P. Breathnach

murphaph wrote: »

... NO PRIVATE SECTOR TAXES = NO PUBLIC SECTOR WAGES, got it?

And no public sector services = no private sector activity.

The word you need is "interdependence".

ei.sdraob

P. Breathnach wrote: »

And no public sector services = no private sector activity.

The word you need is "interdependence".

other OECD countries seem to do quite well with smaller PS sector pay

cuts to a fat PS != completely terminating PS

thats a rather clever tactic there trying to make the two equal

ironically the only ones terminating the PS are the PS strikers themselves by walking out of their jobs

P. Breathnach

ei.sdraob wrote: »

other OECD countries seem to do quite well with smaller PS sector pay

cuts to a fat PS != completely terminating PS

thats a rather clever tactic there trying to make the two equal

ironically the only ones terminating the PS are the PS strikers themselves by walking out of their jobs

Don't read into my post things I never said.

jimmmy

P. Breathnach wrote: »

The word you need is "interdependence".

The fat cats in the public sector are interdependent on government borrowing in order to fund their 300 dollar hairdoos in Florida, the first class trans-Atlantic flights and the climousine connections between the terminals at Heathrow ?

murphaph

P. Breathnach wrote: »

And no public sector services = no private sector activity.

That's wrong of course. The private sector existed long before governments even existed

As I've already said. In a modern society we need a public sector, but they are paid for with private sector money. Seangal started this argument by saying that his public sector wages were keeping the private sector afloat-it is perverse to even suggest it tbh but I fear that many public servants believe they do the same.

hobochris

Just out of curiosity, what happens if Ireland doesn't meet its budget deficit target in the EU allocated time frame?

jimmmy

hobochris wrote: »

Just out of curiosity, what happens if Ireland doesn't meet its budget deficit target in the EU allocated time frame?

The government cheques will bounce ( wishful thinking ) .:D:rolleyes:

murphaph

hobochris wrote: »

Just out of curiosity, what happens if Ireland doesn't meet its budget deficit target in the EU allocated time frame?

I'd imagine the ECB would cut back lending and then when international investors see that they'll follow suite, leaving Ireland up sh!t creek without a paddle. At the moment we're only up sh!t creek.

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

The fat cats in the public sector are interdependent on government borrowing in order to fund their 300 dollar hairdoos in Florida, the first class trans-Atlantic flights and the climousine connections between the terminals at Heathrow ?

You pique my curiosity, jimmmy. Do you want to participate in discussion, or do you simply want to take swipes at the public sector?

gurramok

The EU are definitely pushing this hard with no leeway. Perhaps the unions should become anti-EU
http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/83644bn-must-be-slashed-in-the-budget-says-eu-1940206.html

The report says the Government should proceed with its €16bn budget correction even if the economy performs better than expected, so as to achieve the 3pc figure sooner.

"For Ireland, the commission recommends that the Government specifies consoli- dation measures in the Budget for 2010 in line with the package announced in the April supplementary Budget, and ensures an average annual structural budgetary adjustment of two percentage points of GDP over the period 2010-2014," it says. It also recommends budget surpluses after that, so as to reduce the size of the national debt towards the EU target level of 60pc of GDP.

"The Government should accelerate the reduction in the deficit if economic or budgetary conditions turn out to be better than currently expected and seize every opportunity, beyond the structural adjustment, to accelerate the reduction of gross debt towards the 60pc of GDP reference value," it says. On Tuesday economists at consultants Ernst & Young said Ireland's 3pc target was unlikely to be reached before 2017, even if the Government sticks to its plan. But Mr Almunia said the extra year should be enough time to bring the deficit into line.

So, its a hardline even if the deficit improves a little bit from normal growth. Many yrs of pain ahead!

jimmmy

Mr. Breathnack, you are correct, nobody is allowed mention the wastes in govt spending, such as the one billion budget FAS had, and whatever little extravanges there were or are, even during virtually full employmment days of the "Celtic Tiger". Not even the people who paid hundreds of thousands of euro in taxes to fund these govt employees( I did ).

To get back to the thread, yes, the EC ( as far as I understand it ) want govt spending cut by a minimum of 4 billion this year + 4 billion the following year. They would prefer if we borrowed only 3% but I believe its in double digits now.

RealityCheck

murphaph wrote: »

I'd imagine the ECB would cut back lending and then when international investors see that they'll follow suite, leaving Ireland up sh!t creek without a paddle. At the moment we're only up sh!t creek.

If the wheels start to come off our plan before then, we'll be seeing that well within the timeframe. 2010 will tell a lot. If we cant gain control of our defecit in the next few months that will happen sooner rather than later.