EU set to give Ireland until 2014 to meet its budget deficit target

murphaph

RealityCheck wrote: »

If the wheels start to come off our plan before then, we'll be seeing that well within the timeframe. 2010 will tell a lot. If we cant gain control of our defecit in the next few months that will happen sooner rather than later.

I fear you're right. Cuts in welfare and public sector pay and plenty of them as well as increasing the numbers in the tax net are the order of the day for the foreseeable.

Flex

seangal wrote: »

but not all prices are going down
like it still cost me €60 euro to go a doctor
we are still being ripped of my private sector here and they have slashed jobs to protect profit
IBEC survey show that just 8% of private sector have take pay cut
100% of public sector have take pay cut so maybe it is time the other 92% take a cut to make us more competitive

Does that total figure of 8% of the private sector who have taken a paycut include people who have lost significant income by being put on 3 day weeks, week-on-week-off, unpaid temporary redundancy, etc. and of course the 300,000+ people who have lost their jobs?

RealityCheck

Flex wrote: »

Does that total figure of 8% of the private sector who have taken a paycut include people who have lost significant income by being put on 3 day weeks, week-on-week-off, unpaid temporary redundancy, etc. and of course the 300,000+ people who have lost their jobs?

Some people fail to see the crux of the problem. The revenue the government were getting from the private sector has imploded (mostly construction) and hence we have to make cuts in expenditure. This shows the perilous situation that the private sector is in, which in the past contributed significantly to the state coffers and the public sector.
The fact that the figures dont add up supports the idea that the private sector is in a poor state. This is not an issue of public vs private sector. We are in this together. Both sectors of the economy are linked and rely on each other.

Flex

RealityCheck wrote: »

Some people fail to see the crux of the problem. The revenue the government were getting from the private sector has imploded (mostly construction) and hence we have to make cuts in expenditure. This shows the perilous situation that the private sector is in, which in the past contributed significantly to the state coffers and the public sector.
The fact that the figures dont add up supports the idea that the private sector is in a poor state. This is not an issue of public vs private sector. We are in this together. Both sectors of the economy are linked and rely on each other.

I dont think you got the point of my post. I know the private sector is in a terrible state. Its easy to see from whats been happening to my friends and family, as well as myself.

I was trying to counter a point made by someone who seems to think that things arent that bad at all. What I keep hearing from the public sector is "Raise everyones taxes, that way we all suffer, its not fair the public sector makes all the sacrifices, etc", while the private sector is being hammered. It just goes to show how out of touch with things people are that they believe taking a pay cut is the ultimate consequence of this recession (rather than losing their job).

And as Murphaph has correctly pointed out, the public sector doesnt contribute to the economic wealth of a society. The fact of the matter is that the country would likely benefit from more public servants being made unemployed. Ill try give a short example; Public Servant 1 has a takes €800 home each week, if he was on the dole, however, he would only be taking €204 a week from the government. Saving for the government = €596 a week. Taxes paid by the public service arent 'revenue' for the government, its just a reduction in the government loss.

By the way, Id happily pay a much much much larger % of my salary in tax and all that if it meant that the economy could start recovering and my job could feel secure, as would just about every other friend/family member I know in the private sector. We all should pull our weight to sort things out, however, as if things remain as is and higher taxes are brought in it will be

Private Sector; Pay cuts, Job losses, Terrible job security/uncertainty, Higher taxes.
Public Sector; Higher taxes.

RealityCheck

Flex wrote: »

I dont think you got the point of my post. I know the private sector is in a terrible state. Its easy to see from whats been happening to my friends and family, as well as myself.

I was trying to counter a point made by someone who seems to think that things arent that bad at all. What I keep hearing from the public sector is "Raise everyones taxes, that way we all suffer, its not fair the public sector makes all the sacrifices, etc", while the private sector is being hammered. It just goes to show how out of touch with things people are that they believe taking a pay cut is the ultimate consequence of this recession (rather than losing their job).

And as Murphaph has correctly pointed out, the public sector doesnt contribute to the economic wealth of a society. The fact of the matter is that the country would likely benefit from more public servants being made unemployed. Ill try give a short example; Public Servant 1 has a takes €800 home each week, if he was on the dole, however, he would only be taking €204 a week from the government. Saving for the government = €596 a week. Taxes paid by the public service arent 'revenue' for the government, its just a reduction in the government loss.

By the way, Id happily pay a much much much larger % of my salary in tax and all that if it meant that the economy could start recovering and my job could feel secure, as would just about every other friend/family member I know in the private sector. We all should pull our weight to sort things out, however, as if things remain as is and higher taxes are brought in it will be

Private Sector; Pay cuts, Job losses, Terrible job security/uncertainty, Higher taxes.
Public Sector; Higher taxes.

I have to say I agree. I was running on a slight tangeant but it was just another way of looking at things.

MaceFace

Flex wrote: »

I dont think you got the point of my post. I know the private sector is in a terrible state. Its easy to see from whats been happening to my friends and family, as well as myself.

I was trying to counter a point made by someone who seems to think that things arent that bad at all. What I keep hearing from the public sector is "Raise everyones taxes, that way we all suffer, its not fair the public sector makes all the sacrifices, etc", while the private sector is being hammered. It just goes to show how out of touch with things people are that they believe taking a pay cut is the ultimate consequence of this recession (rather than losing their job).

And as Murphaph has correctly pointed out, the public sector doesnt contribute to the economic wealth of a society. The fact of the matter is that the country would likely benefit from more public servants being made unemployed. Ill try give a short example; Public Servant 1 has a takes €800 home each week, if he was on the dole, however, he would only be taking €204 a week from the government. Saving for the government = €596 a week. Taxes paid by the public service arent 'revenue' for the government, its just a reduction in the government loss.

By the way, Id happily pay a much much much larger % of my salary in tax and all that if it meant that the economy could start recovering and my job could feel secure, as would just about every other friend/family member I know in the private sector. We all should pull our weight to sort things out, however, as if things remain as is and higher taxes are brought in it will be

Private Sector; Pay cuts, Job losses, Terrible job security/uncertainty, Higher taxes.
Public Sector; Higher taxes.

More bashing just for the sake of it. Why not balance your argument by going into the details of the social aspect of what will happen if we lay off a load of people from the public sector?

irish_bob

MaceFace wrote: »

More bashing just for the sake of it. Why not balance your argument by going into the details of the social aspect of what will happen if we lay off a load of people from the public sector?

figures can be fuzzy and hard to quantify when you get into things like measuring the social aspect , the term VULNERABLE seems to cover half the country right now or baschically anyone who considers themselves vulnerable

P. Breathnach

Flex wrote: »

... And as Murphaph has correctly pointed out, the public sector doesnt contribute to the economic wealth of a society...

Just try running a business without public services.

jimmmy

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Just try running a business without public services.

As poorrr auld Mr. Cowen sobs + offers as an excuse to the EU / IMF
" Just try running a country with the highest known paid public services in the world ". No wonder he likes his pints, its enough to drive a man to de drink, poor fella.

murphaph

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Just try running a business without public services.

People run businesses all over the world in countries with literally no public services.

It is actually possible you know!

murphaph

MaceFace wrote: »

More bashing just for the sake of it. Why not balance your argument by going into the details of the social aspect of what will happen if we lay off a load of people from the public sector?

Scraping the bottom of the barrel for an argument if you have to resort to the "social impact" retort. He made a good clear post, which was all well thought out and you replied with nothing.

He pointed out that in the private sector hardship means; job loss, pay cut, short time, statutory redundancy payment, increased taxes

In the public sector it just means increased taxes. He also said he'd happily pay a load more in tax if it went somewhere meaningful. I presume he means NOT into the salaries of the public sector which are way too high for a country 25bn in the red, annually!

jetfiremuck

I dont see the logic of anyone accepting or willing to pay higher taxes in order to help us out of this mess. What has happened over the years is that people are willing to pay higher taxes to Gov who are for the most part inept for that feeling (security) that the Gov will look after them in times of crisis. Thats not the way it should be. Gov is needed to run the country not control it. We are turning into a welfare state where everyone that pays in feels entitled whether they deserve it or not. Human nature being what it is" its hard to wean people off the tit" Public servants.teachers are all in guaranteed pensionable jobs. There is no safety net for private sector unless they fund it thru work or separate plans.

MaceFace

murphaph wrote: »

Scraping the bottom of the barrel for an argument if you have to resort to the "social impact" retort. He made a good clear post, which was all well thought out and you replied with nothing.

No - I replied that you can't just go on about how financially better off we will be if we make redudancies in the public sector.
There is major reform of the public sector needed but do people not realise that we can't just slash and burn by letting people go. Services will be affected and while people might not care, they certainly will when they come to rely on those services.
So, don't just look at the finances, a country is not a private company who is out to make profits.

murphaph wrote: »

He pointed out that in the private sector hardship means; job loss, pay cut, short time, statutory redundancy payment, increased taxes

In the public sector it just means increased taxes. He also said he'd happily pay a load more in tax if it went somewhere meaningful. I presume he means NOT into the salaries of the public sector which are way too high for a country 25bn in the red, annually!

I am in the private sector and I know exactly what "we" have to go through, but I also know that the PS had a 7.5% avg pay cut this year and will probably have another 7.5% in December.
Are many in the PS overpaid - YES. Do many of them have large debts that they will be struggling to pay with another pay cut and the cut in child welfare? Yes.

I am not defending the PS in anyway, more attacking those that only choose to see one side of the argument and insist on keeping the divide up between those in the public sector and those in the private sector.

I bet you one thing - those that are complaining about the public sector - if you worked there, you would be striking as well.

seangal

Flex wrote: »

Does that total figure of 8% of the private sector who have taken a paycut include people who have lost significant income by being put on 3 day weeks, week-on-week-off, unpaid temporary redundancy, etc. and of course the 300,000+ people who have lost their jobs?

ASK IBEC that question

P. Breathnach

murphaph wrote: »

People run businesses all over the world in countries with literally no public services.

It is actually possible you know!

Where? What sort of businesses?

seangal

RealityCheck wrote: »

Some people fail to see the crux of the problem. The revenue the government were getting from the private sector has imploded (mostly construction) and hence we have to make cuts in expenditure. This shows the perilous situation that the private sector is in, which in the past contributed significantly to the state coffers and the public sector.
The fact that the figures dont add up supports the idea that the private sector is in a poor state. This is not an issue of public vs private sector. We are in this together. Both sectors of the economy are linked and rely on each other.

yes we are in this togeather
but you dont see the public sector giving out about the private sector
You see all the media giving out about the private sector
You have people on this bashing the public sector because they listen to everything they hear in the media
would the private sector like to be tarred with the same brush as the banker and builder are
There is waste in the public sector yes but look at how the private sector had ripped off the every day shopper in this country for the last 10 years
When we bought in the euro they used it to ripp us off even more
shame on them all and there greed

irish_bob

seangal wrote: »

yes we are in this togeather
but you dont see the public sector giving out about the private sector
You see all the media giving out about the private sector
You have people on this bashing the public sector because they listen to everything they hear in the media
would the private sector like to be tarred with the same brush as the banker and builder are
There is waste in the public sector yes but look at how the private sector had ripped off the every day shopper in this country for the last 10 years
When we bought in the euro they used it to ripp us off even more
shame on them all and there greed

any post which comes out with the inane line PEOPLE ONLY BELIEVE WHAT THEY HEARD IN THE MEDIA ABOUT THE PS , is immedietly rendered useless

time for the unions to come out with a new slogan

murphaph

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Where? What sort of businesses?

In developing countries mostly, where the public service doesn't really exist. People still make things and buy and sell things from each other in such countries without the need for rubber stamps.

In a modern society of course it is preferable to have things regulated to a degree, however if everything really collapsed the private sector would continue to function (albeit without regulation), without public servants.

Can you not see that?

murphaph

seangal wrote: »

but you dont see the public sector giving out about the private sector

would the private sector like to be tarred with the same brush as the banker and builder are

At least one or two public sector workers on here do exactly the above. To them, private sector = banks and developers and retailers and nothing else. They forget about minimum wage Mary in the factory on the nightshift or pennyless Paul working in the 24Hour garage on the corner for €8.65 an hour and believe all those in the private sector are receiving NAMA bailouts lol!

Idbatterim

just read that of the €4 billion adjustment this year, 2 billions alone will go on interest! I have to admit, Im loving this! I hope to god, that things here completely implode, not for the majority of hard workers or newly unemployed but for alot of the other leeches in the PS on SW and Politicians! This deflationary situation over the course of a few years will be alot more damaging than just taking an axe to everything, but there is no way it will be done or would be accepted!

Idbatterim

regarding the ignorant comment about the private sector charging rip off proces for years! the main reason is the ridiculous cost of running business here! alot of them controlled by the Goverment!

RealityCheck

seangal wrote: »

ASK IBEC that question

IBEC dont represent all of the private sector :rolleyes:.

seangal

Flex wrote: »

I dont think you got the point of my post. I know the private sector is in a terrible state. Its easy to see from whats been happening to my friends and family, as well as myself.

I was trying to counter a point made by someone who seems to think that things arent that bad at all. What I keep hearing from the public sector is "Raise everyones taxes, that way we all suffer, its not fair the public sector makes all the sacrifices, etc", while the private sector is being hammered. It just goes to show how out of touch with things people are that they believe taking a pay cut is the ultimate consequence of this recession (rather than losing their job).

And as Murphaph has correctly pointed out, the public sector doesnt contribute to the economic wealth of a society. The fact of the matter is that the country would likely benefit from more public servants being made unemployed. Ill try give a short example; Public Servant 1 has a takes €800 home each week, if he was on the dole, however, he would only be taking €204 a week from the government. Saving for the government = €596 a week. Taxes paid by the public service arent 'revenue' for the government, its just a reduction in the government loss.

By the way, Id happily pay a much much much larger % of my salary in tax and all that if it meant that the economy could start recovering and my job could feel secure, as would just about every other friend/family member I know in the private sector. We all should pull our weight to sort things out, however, as if things remain as is and higher taxes are brought in it will be

Private Sector; Pay cuts, Job losses, Terrible job security/uncertainty, Higher taxes.
Public Sector; Higher taxes.

such a load of crap
doing u understand anything
a) most public sector take home between 300 and 600 a week so the saving would be between 100 and 400 euro
b) they would have to pay some for of pay off
c) they would then get all there health service free
d) there would get there rent or mortgage relief
e) and god know how many more like back to school allowance ect
use you brain there is nothing to be gained by putting people on the dole

seangal

jimmmy wrote: »

As poorrr auld Mr. Cowen sobs + offers as an excuse to the EU / IMF
" Just try running a country with the highest known paid public services in the world ". No wonder he likes his pints, its enough to drive a man to de drink, poor fella.

they might be a bit over paid but we have about 1 public sector employee per 15 people the uk has 1 per 10 people

RealityCheck

Idbatterim wrote: »

just read that of the €4 billion adjustment this year, 2 billions alone will go on interest! I have to admit, Im loving this! I hope to god, that things here completely implode, not for the majority of hard workers or newly unemployed but for alot of the other leeches in the PS on SW and Politicians! This deflationary situation over the course of a few years will be alot more damaging than just taking an axe to everything, but there is no way it will be done or would be accepted!

I think with recent developments that is inevitable. The scale of the problem is massive, but of course not all of us realise that. It won't be long until they are shown straight.

murphaph

seangal wrote: »

such a load of crap
doing u understand anything
a) most public sector take home between 300 and 600 a week so the saving would be between 100 and 400 euro
b) they would have to pay some for of pay off
c) they would then get all there health service free
d) there would get there rent or mortgage relief
e) and god know how many more like back to school allowance ect
use you brain there is nothing to be gained by putting people on the dole

Are you a public or civil servant?

P. Breathnach

murphaph wrote: »

In developing countries mostly, where the public service doesn't really exist. People still make things and buy and sell things from each other in such countries without the need for rubber stamps.

In a modern society of course it is preferable to have things regulated to a degree, however if everything really collapsed the private sector would continue to function (albeit without regulation), without public servants.

Can you not see that?

So we can sell handmade rugs to one another?

One of the first things in development is the creation of public services -- a legal system, a communications system, an education system, physical infrastructure, and many other things.

seangal

murphaph wrote: »

Are you a public or civil servant?

i think you know i am public sector

RealityCheck

seangal wrote: »

such a load of crap
doing u understand anything
a) most public sector take home between 300 and 600 a week so the saving would be between 100 and 400 euro
b) they would have to pay some for of pay off
c) they would then get all there health service free
d) there would get there rent or mortgage relief
e) and god know how many more like back to school allowance ect
use you brain there is nothing to be gained by putting people on the dole

There is more to be gained in that, than paying people borrowed money.
Also, if you consider the effect that lower wages in the PS will have across the board, our competitiveness will improve enabling us to offer those who end up on the dole, jobs in the private sector in the future.

seangal

it look like we are heading for strike so if we have 10 day of strike over the next year that will save allmost a billion so there is the saving