Customs took a car that wasn't mine

lilywhites1982

Hi Guys,

Just to give you a background on this. I live in the middle of a town so don't need really need a car that much but I get a lend of my father in law's car every so often. This morning I was driving it to work and the customs stopped me and seized the car. The car (northern reg) is registered in my father in law's name who lives in Newry and I am a named driver on the insurance from my address in the south. All legal when I did it the insurance company.

When I explained this to the customs officer she wouldn't except and leaned into the car and took the keys out of my ignition saying that she was seizing the car?

Dunno what to do now without paying them thr 450 euro fine to get it back to my father in law?

cadaliac

At minimum - €450 to get it back.
The alternative is to leave it there and ask your Father in law to get it back with proof of ownership, address and cert of insurance with your name as a named driver.

peasant

If you are normally resident in the Republic, you are not allowed to drive a foreign registered car (regardless of what the insurance says or does) and in that case plain out of luck ...no other choice but to pay the fine, get the car across the border and leave it there.

EPM

^^^^what he said

faceman

peasant wrote: »

If you are normally resident in the Republic, you are not allowed to drive a foreign registered car (regardless of what the insurance says or does) and in that case plain out of luck ...no other choice but to pay the fine, get the car across the border and leave it there.

Thats interesting. My car once broken down when I was in NI and it needed to be left in to a garage (in NI) for a few days. I drove an NI hire car from NI to Dublin and used it for 2 days before driving back to return it and collect my own car.

So technically, could the gardai have seized the hire car?

craichoe

faceman wrote: »

Thats interesting. My car once broken down when I was in NI and it needed to be left in to a garage (in NI) for a few days. I drove an NI hire car from NI to Dublin and used it for 2 days before driving back to return it and collect my own car.

So technically, could the gardai have seized the hire car?

http://www.vrt.ie/vrtDetail.php?page=23

# It cannot be disposed of or hired out in the State.

Technically no, you can't Rent a car in Belfast and Drive it in the south as a Republic resident.

Exact same in the Netherlands, one of the lads I work with had his SIXT car siezed by the Douane as it was the second time he was caught driving a German Rental car over the border.

He had to pay the fine + a few extra days rental.

its a STUPID tax

smash

I'd get your father in law to get onto his solicitor!

didn't someone say in a another thread recently that they can't actually take a car any more?

Paulw

faceman wrote: »

So technically, could the gardai have seized the hire car?

No, the Gardai can't, but customs can.

Twin-go

So much for the free movement of goods a labour around the E.U.
This is a scandal. Need to get rid of this illegal Tax/Duty asap and get the customs looking at activities that cause real problems to the state.

smash

Twin-go wrote: »

So much for the free movement of goods a labour around the E.U.
This is a scandal. Need to get rid of this illegal Tax/Duty asap and get the customs looking at activities that cause real problems to the state.

Really, lets not go down this road again... it's not an illegal tax!

Cookie_Monster

craichoe wrote: »

http://www.vrt.ie/vrtDetail.php?page=23



Technically no, you can't Rent a car in Belfast and Drive it in the south as a Republic resident.

Exact same in the Netherlands, one of the lads I work with had his SIXT car siezed by the Douane as it was the second time he was caught driving a German Rental car over the border.

He had to pay the fine + a few extra days rental.

its a STUPID tax

So how does that work if you're hiring a car to drive around Europe? Since the hire companies will let you hire in A and drop back in B...

JHMEG

peasant wrote: »

If you are normally resident in the Republic, you are not allowed to drive a foreign registered car (regardless of what the insurance says or does) and in that case plain out of luck ...no other choice but to pay the fine, get the car across the border and leave it there.

Citizens Information wrote:

You must register your car and pay VRT by the end of the next working day following its arrival into Ireland.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/moving-country/moving-to-ireland/coming-to-live-in-ireland/importing_car_into_ireland#rules

If the Customs had evidence the car was being driven by a resident for longer than 24 hours then it's a fair assumption that the driver is the owner. If they didn't they shouldn't have seized it.

Bottom line is you can drive the car under the current rules, as long as you leave the state with it before the end of the next working day. This would appear to cover arriving on Friday and leaving by Monday morning.

Drummerboy08

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

So how does that work if you're hiring a car to drive around Europe? Since the hire companies will let you hire in A and drop back in B...

Alot of companies wont let you take the car from one country and leave it in another. I think as along as its in the same country, there's no problem where its dropped off.

Twin-go

steve06 wrote: »

Really, lets not go down this road again... it's not an illegal tax!

You're right but there are no reasonable reason for it to be still in place.
1, It is anticompetive
2, Its a double tax, you pay the VAT on the car then you pay VRT on the + VAT price (Should be cal. on the price less VAT)
3, the government are looking to harmonise road laws with the North will this mean they get VRT or we loose it?
4, It is prohivitive to the free movement of people in the EU.
5, It penalises the general public as commercial only pay minimal VRT of €50
6, Why are Customs Offers the patrol VRT and not the Revinue if it is not an import TAX?
7, As for the OPs situation. They should not be allowed to take a car if the owner is not present or if they do the should return it at no cost.

mickdw

if you had told them that it was the father in laws car and that he lives and normally operates the car in NI and that the car was going to be in this state for less that 24 hrs, then I dont think they could have taken it.
You probably told them..... I live here in republic, and I use it sometimes. This is not allowed as pointed out above.

Abelloid

lilywhites1982 wrote: »

Hi Guys,

Just to give you a background on this. I live in the middle of a town so don't need really need a car that much but I get a lend of my father in law's car every so often. This morning I was driving it to work and the customs stopped me and seized the car. The car (northern reg) is registered in my father in law's name who lives in Newry and I am a named driver on the insurance from my address in the south. All legal when I did it the insurance company.

When I explained this to the customs officer she wouldn't except and leaned into the car and took the keys out of my ignition saying that she was seizing the car?

Dunno what to do now without paying them thr 450 euro fine to get it back to my father in law?

How long did you borrow it for this time?

R.O.R

Twin-go wrote: »

Your right but there are no reasonable reason for it to be still in place.
1, It is anticompetive- Against what? All cars brought in to Ireland are subject to VRT.
2, Its a double tax, you pay the VAT on the car then you pay VRT on the + VAT price (Should be cal. on the price less VAT) - VRT is an arbitary amount which makes up the total cost of a car (OMSP). There is no VAT on VRT.
3, the government are looking to harmonise road laws with the North will this mean they get VRT or we loose it? - What has VRT got to do with road laws? It's a registration tax.
4, It is prohivitive to the free movement of people in the EU.- you can re-register your car in Ireland for free (or small fee) if you've owned it in your home country, how's that prohibitive to movement?
5, It penalises the general public as commercial only pay minimal VRT of €50 Anyone can buy a commercial vehicle to pay €50 VRT
6, Why are Customs Offers the patrol VRT and not the Revinue if it is not an import TAX? That's a good question
7, As for the OPs situation. They should not be allowed to take a car if the owner is not present or if they do the should return it at no cost. - The registered owner is the only person who should be able to stop them taking the car, if they can prove they are not resident in the state. I'd hazard a guess that around 100% of the cars being driven by ROI residents on NI plates are not correctly registered (exemption permitting) and therefore not being driven by the registered owner.

.

craichoe

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

So how does that work if you're hiring a car to drive around Europe? Since the hire companies will let you hire in A and drop back in B...

Thats your problem, you could be resident anywhere, its only if your RESIDENT in the Netherlands you can't drive a foreign registered car there, whether it be rented or not in the Netherlands.

If the car gets confiscated the onus is on you to know the rules

Anan1

Twin-go wrote: »

Your right but there are no reasonable reason for it to be still in place.
1, It is anticompetive
2, Its a double tax, you pay the VAT on the car then you pay VRT on the + VAT price (Should be cal. on the price less VAT)
3, the government are looking to harmonise road laws with the North will this mean they get VRT or we loose it?
4, It is prohivitive to the free movement of people in the EU.
5, It penalises the general public as commercial only pay minimal VRT of €50
6, Why are Customs Offers the patrol VRT and not the Revinue if it is not an import TAX?
7, As for the OPs situation. They should not be allowed to take a car if the owner is not present or if they do the should return it at no cost.

The legality of VRT has already been discussed to death here on more than one occasion, we won't be going down that road again. Thanks.:)

ardmacha

If the OP was driving to work and had done so the previous day then he was in breach and should just pay the fine and forget about wasting money on solicitors.

The only loophole would occur if he could say that he was driving it for his father in laws benefit rather than his own, e.g. he was going to the airport to pick up him. But going to his own work he has no excuse.

Terrontress

Are there exemptions in the legislation for mechanics who would reasonably have in their possession foreign registered vehicles which will stay in the state for more than twenty four hours.

Also, on the Emergency Services board, there are pictures of two Mondeos, painted as Garda vehicles, with Northern number plates. Obviously designed for use in the Republic as they are painted Garda but are film props. Should they be confiscated?

-Chris-

Terrontress wrote: »

Are there exemptions in the legislation for mechanics who would reasonably have in their possession foreign registered vehicles which will stay in the state for more than twenty four hours.

Garages have TAN numbers and trade plates that allow them to drive cars that don't have valid registration numbers or valid motor tax.

ardmacha

Are there exemptions in the legislation for mechanics who would reasonably have in their possession foreign registered vehicles which will stay in the state for more than twenty four hours.

Mechanics etc are specifically excluded as are chauffeurs etc as these people are not driving the cars for their own benefit but for the benefit of the owner of the vehicle.

Obviously designed for use in the Republic as they are painted Garda but are film props. Should they be confiscated?

These are essentially company cars, used for a short term project.

Terrontress

It just seems that there needs to be hundreds of exemptions for this legislation to work correctly or else there are a lot of people acting illegally. I'd like to see how the legislation is written or is most of it implied?

The notion of it being illegal for a resident to drive a car from another country just seems insane to me.

If someone crosses the border to sell a car, is someone test driving it breaking the law?

ardmacha

Its no different than any other tax. You cannot get a TV in Newry and watch it in your house in Dublin unless you have paid your TV licence.

There is no need for hundreds of exemptions, it is clear enough, you drive a car registered where you are normally resident. Many people do break the law and many get caught, like the OP. It is a major pain in the arse in a divided country.

c4cat

peasant wrote: »

If you are normally resident in the Republic, you are not allowed to drive a foreign registered car (regardless of what the insurance says or does) and in that case plain out of luck ...no other choice but to pay the fine, get the car across the border and leave it there.

So whats the situation if one lives in ROI and has a Job in the north for a NI company that does business in ROI and involves driving the company car in the ROI? When EU rules state we have free movement of labour and trade and its against EU law to do anything to hinder free trade and movement of labour.

I Know that one can get around the VRT if one lives in the ROI and sets up a company in NI and registers a vehicle in the name of the NI company, then one can be living in ROI using a NI company vehicle for business in the North and ROI legit and customs do not have a leg to stand on in getting any VRT out of you

Anan1

c4cat wrote: »

So whats the situation if one lives in ROI and has a Job in the north for a NI company that does business in ROI and involves driving the company car in the ROI? When EU rules state we have free movement of labour and trade and its against EU law to do anything to hinder free trade and movement of labour

Believe it or not, 'movement of labour' does not refer to being able to drive to work.;)

In any case, and as i've said before, we're not going down the road of arguing the legality of VRT.

PCPhoto

ardmacha wrote: »

Its no different than any other tax. You cannot get a TV in Newry and watch it in your house in Dublin unless you have paid your TV licence.

There is no need for hundreds of exemptions, it is clear enough, you drive a car registered where you are normally resident. Many people do break the law and many get caught, like the OP. It is a major pain in the arse in a divided country.

this makes no sense - its the same as saying you cant buy a TV in Dublin and watch it in your house in Dublin without paying a TV licence...... you cant buy a TV and store it in your house without being required to buy a TV licence !!!

as for the OP - it should be a case of your in-law going with correct documents claiming car back - proving its legally registered in North.

jhegarty

craichoe wrote: »

Exact same in the Netherlands, one of the lads I work with had his SIXT car siezed by the Douane as it was the second time he was caught driving a German Rental car over the border.

He had to pay the fine + a few extra days rental.

its a STUPID tax

That doesn't make sense unless he is a resident in the Netherlands.

robtri

-Chris- wrote: »

Garages have TAN numbers and trade plates that allow them to drive cars that don't have valid registration numbers or valid motor tax.

I don't think thats right, A TAN number and grage plates allows you to have and own foreign reg cars, BUT it does not allow you to drive them around....

Thats hows main dealers can have cars advertised for sale with yellow regs and not VRT yet.
But they have to stay at the premises, they are not supposed to be driven, if they are they can be confiscated.

-Chris-

robtri wrote: »

I don't think thats right, A TAN number and grage plates allows you to have and own foreign reg cars, BUT it does not allow you to drive them around....

Thats hows main dealers can have cars advertised for sale with yellow regs and not VRT yet.
But they have to stay at the premises, they are not supposed to be driven, if they are they can be confiscated.

They're allowed to drive them, not the same as driving them around (probably...).

What I mean is you may see mechanics or garages driving yellow plates (or no plates). It's perfectly fine if it's in the course of business.
They're not allowed to use those plates to take the car home or use it for social & domestic purposes.

robtri

-Chris- wrote: »

They're allowed to drive them, not the same as driving them around (probably...).

What I mean is you may see mechanics or garages driving yellow plates (or no plates). It's perfectly fine if it's in the course of business.
They're not allowed to use those plates to take the car home or use it for social & domestic purposes.

I don't believe it is fine, my understanding is that you can hold yellow reg cars on your premises without VRTing them, but they have to stay on your premises, they are not allowed to be driven on the public roads.... if they are on the public roads then they are liable for seizure......

alo1587

robtri wrote: »

I don't believe it is fine, my understanding is that you can hold yellow reg cars on your premises without VRTing them, but they have to stay on your premises, they are not allowed to be driven on the public roads.... if they are on the public roads then they are liable for seizure......

They can be used on public roads,but only in the course of business i.e. test drive etc. but must be showing trade plates while doing so (which can only be used between 6am and 10pm,stupid rule).The car cannot be used for social purposes,taking it home for a spin/to do the shopping etc.

craichoe

jhegarty wrote: »

That doesn't make sense unless he is a resident in the Netherlands.

He is a resident of the Netherlands on secondment to a company in Germany.

ardmacha

this makes no sense - its the same as saying you cant buy a TV in Dublin and watch it in your house in Dublin without paying a TV licence...... you cant buy a TV and store it in your house without being required to buy a TV licence !!!

It is only an analogy, if you buy a car in Dublin or Newry, the VRT has to be paid on it.

as for the OP - it should be a case of your in-law going with correct documents claiming car back - proving its legally registered in North.

The registration or insurance status of the car is not in question. The OP can probably get the car back, or at least his father in law can. But he will still have to pay the fine for driving it illegally.

But they have to stay at the premises, they are not supposed to be driven, if they are they can be confiscated.

If a tourist's car breaks down and goes to a garage, then the mechanic could drive it round the block to test it.

darragh o meara

ive been reading this with interest as i myself have had a car siezed by customs a few years back. I now work in revenue and work alongside an ex customs officer and had a conversation with him about this problem the OP has. His reply was that any citizen of the republic of ireland who is normally resident in the republic cannot drive a foriegn registered car in the republic without declaring vrt. He also said that customs officers rarely take foriegn reg cars if all the tax etc is up to date as there is a goosd channce that the car is legitimately owned in the uk. He also told me that the usual rule of thumb is to issue a warning first before siezure. They also note any sightings of foriegn cars and keep them on file in case they.re encounter again.

The customs lads are like yer man on the radio for the tv licience. We,ve heard all the excuses and none of them work

oh and by the way, watch out for vrt changes coming into effect this coming janruary.

daRobot

Omeara_darragh wrote: »

oh and by the way, watch out for vrt changes coming into effect this coming janruary.

Tell us more. What changes are these?

alo1587

Omeara_darragh wrote: »

ive been reading this with interest as i myself have had a car siezed by customs a few years back. I now work in revenue and work alongside an ex customs officer and had a conversation with him about this problem the OP has. His reply was that any citizen of the republic of ireland who is normally resident in the republic cannot drive a foriegn registered car in the republic without declaring vrt. He also said that customs officers rarely take foriegn reg cars if all the tax etc is up to date as there is a goosd channce that the car is legitimately owned in the uk. He also told me that the usual rule of thumb is to issue a warning first before siezure. They also note any sightings of foriegn cars and keep them on file in case they.re encounter again.

The customs lads are like yer man on the radio for the tv licience. We,ve heard all the excuses and none of them work

oh and by the way, watch out for vrt changes coming into effect this coming janruary.

Care to elaborate on the changes in January?? :)

tuxy

alo1587 wrote: »

Care to elaborate on the changes in January?? :)

No, just keep your eyes peeled. We will say now more

alo1587

tuxy wrote: »

No, just keep your eyes peeled. We will say now more

So vrt is being scrapped??!! YAAAAAAAAAAAY!!!!!!!!:D

Mr Benevolent

alo1587 wrote: »

So vrt is being scrapped??!! YAAAAAAAAAAAY!!!!!!!!:D

It'll be replaced by something else, believe me.

CiniO

c4cat wrote: »

So whats the situation if one lives in ROI and has a Job in the north for a NI company that does business in ROI and involves driving the company car in the ROI? When EU rules state we have free movement of labour and trade and its against EU law to do anything to hinder free trade and movement of labour.

I Know that one can get around the VRT if one lives in the ROI and sets up a company in NI and registers a vehicle in the name of the NI company, then one can be living in ROI using a NI company vehicle for business in the North and ROI legit and customs do not have a leg to stand on in getting any VRT out of you

Is this situation OK and legal then?

galwaytt

tuxy wrote: »

No, just keep your eyes peeled. We will say now more

Ok, so, if I was buying 911 (00-04), should I do it now, or after Jan 1...........??

TestTransmission

tuxy wrote: »

No, just keep your eyes peeled. We will say now more

How would a college student know?

darragh o meara

galwaytt wrote: »

Ok, so, if I was buying 911 (00-04), should I do it now, or after Jan 1...........??

if your able to buy a 911 of that year spending money on VRT shouldnt be an issue

Cant say about changes for Jan as they are not public knowledge yet but there will be changes a coming....

galwaytt

Omeara_darragh wrote: »

if your able to buy a 911 of that year spending money on VRT shouldnt be an issue

Cant say about changes for Jan as they are not public knowledge yet but there will be changes a coming....

Pardon my french, and not being personal, but that 'if you can...' type of statement is complete bollox.

I can buy a 911 for less than the price of a Focus. So, technically, what you should have said, is, 'if you can afford the price of a Focus then.....etc', in which case, anybody who can afford - anything -........etc etc.

As has been posted here before, the costs of running 'luxobarges' and similar, is less than the cost of a regular tin box. That doesn't mean I should run out and volunteer to line the coffers of NAMA with my hard-earned, just 'cos I want a particular item/badge/whatever. I quite sure some people spend more on cigs/drink than I do on 'supercars', and I'm entitled to pay as little tax as the next guy.

ardmacha

So whats the situation if one lives in ROI and has a Job in the north for a NI company that does business in ROI and involves driving the company car in the ROI?

There is provision for this, if you are coming and going to the North to some extent.

I Know that one can get around the VRT if one lives in the ROI and sets up a company in NI and registers a vehicle in the name of the NI company, then one can be living in ROI using a NI company vehicle for business in the North and ROI legit and customs do not have a leg to stand on in getting any VRT out of you

Well you'd have to using the car for legitimate business, setting up a company with no actual business wouldn't help.

Omeara_darragh

Omeara_darragh wrote: »

if your able to buy a 911 of that year spending money on VRT shouldnt be an issue

Thats rubbish tbh. Not being specific to a 911, Just because someone can afford to spend big money say 80k on a car does not mean they can afford to spend 120k on the car because of the vrt. So yes the VRT could well be an issue. Not everybody who drives expensive cars is completely loaded, they are very Well off obviously but not to the point where a 40k price difference means nothing.

darragh o meara

Ok firstly apologies. I meant it in a light hearted manner and didnt intend for it to be taken seriously at all. Sorry for any offence caused. As for reductions in VRT after Jan I dont honestly think that the government is in any sort of position to loose a cash cow such as VRT. Changes will be implemented in other areas from what I have been told. I cannot elaborate unforutnately but this information will no doubt be leaked at some stage in the near future but not by me.

And secondly I would be the first lad over to buy a 911 if I could afford one and chance my arm on the UK plates for as long as I could get away with it!!! I had my Focus RS on the road with UK plates for nearly 2 years with no hassle whatsoever as I myself do not agree with this illegal tax...

Esel

Omeara_darragh wrote: »

I had my Focus RS on the road with UK plates for nearly 2 years with no hassle whatsoever as I myself do not agree with this illegal tax...

Foot in mouth much?