GAME OF THRONES [Book and TV Discussion (US Pace)]

ancapailldorcha

Nearly finished ADWD, is there any similar series to GoT that might be worth waiting in the lead up to Winds of Winter.

Sleepy

Not similar but I don't know anyone who's read both who disliked Brandon Sanderson's Mystborn.

Paddy Samurai

For anyone interested...........


http://georgerrmartin.com/if-sample.html

clashburke

Sleepy wrote: »

Not similar but I don't know anyone who's read both who disliked Brandon Sanderson's Mystborn.

got mistborn for Christmas. Thought they where brilliant!! Defiantly worth a read..
I also though Dwarves by Markus Hertz was good as well, not the same as either mistborn or ASOIAF, but good none the less.

sin0city

clashburke wrote: »

got mistborn for Christmas. Thought they where brilliant!! Defiantly worth a read..
I also though Dwarves by Markus Hertz was good as well, not the same as either mistborn or ASOIAF, but good none the less.

Must give Mistborn a shot so.

I'd also recommend Robin Hobb's books, the Farseer Trilogy and the Liveship Traders. Brilliant writer and definitely an influence on some of GRRM's stuff.

Is it still looking like 2014 for Winds of Winter?

Dades

sin0city wrote: »

Is it still looking like 2014 for Winds of Winter?

At the earliest I'd say!

sin0city

Dades wrote: »

At the earliest I'd say!

Hate to say it but there's a fair possibility he'll pull a Robert Jordan on it and die before he finishes the books. Not the healthiest looking lad and he's getting on.

ixoy

sin0city wrote: »

Hate to say it but there's a fair possibility he'll pull a Robert Jordan on it and die before he finishes the books. Not the healthiest looking lad and he's getting on.

And he's also signed a two year deal with HBO including developing a new series. More distractions!

fitz

ixoy wrote: »

And he's also signed a two year deal with HBO including developing a new series. More distractions!

I'm with Neil Gaiman on the "GRRM is not your b*tch" stance, but as a reader of his stuff, it's frustrating as hell that he seems to spend so much time on other projects, and is now taking on more.

It would suck if the Jordan situation repeated itself.
Obviously at a human level, it'd be terribly sad to see such a talent die, but if he were to die before he got to complete his masterwork, it'd be a tragedy.
Especially considering he doesn't have notes and is on record as saying ASOIAF would die with him in that event.

I wonder though...after the huge backlash over progress on ADWD, will GRRM do a Bowie with the next book...out of the blue, when no-one is expecting it to be done anywhere near as quickly, and with little in the way of ongoing progress reports, will he announce just that it's done...
I certainly hope so.

JohnK

fitz wrote: »

Especially considering he doesn't have notes and is on record as saying ASOIAF would die with him in that event.

I thought he had given the producers of the show a set of notes detailing how he sees it all ending so they wouldnt be a million miles apart when the show catches up to the books?

fitz

JohnK wrote: »

I thought he had given the producers of the show a set of notes detailing how he sees it all ending so they wouldnt be a million miles apart when the show catches up to the books?

He's told them how it ends, but basically, they'd be on their own in terms of coming up with how to get there, cause he hasn't written any of that. He's more or less winging it.

I'd hoped the pressure of staying ahead of the TV show would keep him focused on getting the books out, but it's too soon to tell really.

You can't rush the creative process, and he can't work on it every waking hour, I just hope he's not taking on things that eat into the times he could be working on ASOIAF.

sin0city

I just really hope we don't end up watching the conclusion of such an epic saga on television. Not that I've anything against the series, I hear it's really good and I will watch it, but hopefully after I've read it.

clashburke

fitz wrote: »

He's told them how it ends, but basically, they'd be on their own in terms of coming up with how to get there, cause he hasn't written any of that. He's more or less winging it.

I'd hoped the pressure of staying ahead of the TV show would keep him focused on getting the books out, but it's too soon to tell really.

You can't rush the creative process, and he can't work on it every waking hour, I just hope he's not taking on things that eat into the times he could be working on ASOIAF.

he has given detailed notes on all that he knows will happen, that the end the major players left and the main points in between. Still a lot to fill in mind but he also has boxes and boxes of notes that he has been writing for years!! stay positive:)

fitz

clashburke wrote: »

he has given detailed notes on all that he knows will happen, that the end the major players left and the main points in between. Still a lot to fill in mind but he also has boxes and boxes of notes that he has been writing for years!! stay positive:)

He has stated definitively that if he dies before he finishes writing, the series of books dies with him. There will be no Jordan/Sanderson style situation where someone else finishes it from his notes.

So, while I know the writing will take however long it takes, I'll be really disappointed if we never get to read his conclusion to the series.

Personally, new creative projects are always exciting, but if I was him, I'd be deprioritising everything else to get my magnum opus finished. I would think the prospect of not getting a chance to complete such a work would be terrifying tbh.

Nody

fitz wrote: »

He has stated definitively that if he dies before he finishes writing, the series of books dies with him. There will be no Jordan/Sanderson style situation where someone else finishes it from his notes.

They "finished" dune from 30 pages (then again the personal note at the end of the last proper book still touches me); I'm quite certain it will be "finished" as well though obviously not with the same level of detail and flaire as we'd be used to.

fitz

Nody wrote: »

They "finished" dune from 30 pages (then again the personal note at the end of the last proper book still touches me); I'm quite certain it will be "finished" as well though obviously not with the same level of detail and flaire as we'd be used to.

I really can't see his wife (who's decision it will be) going against the wishes he's no doubt written in to his will. If he keels over, that's the end of the books.
He's said this multiple times, why would anyone believe otherwise?

sin0city

fitz wrote: »

I really can't see his wife (who's decision it will be) going against the wishes he's no doubt written in to his will. If he keels over, that's the end of the books.
He's said this multiple times, why would anyone believe otherwise?

Just the books? I mean has he given HBO license to continue should he die without completing the books?

Trojan

GRRM and Scott Lynch got together to talk about effective procrastination techniques.

fitz

sin0city wrote: »

Just the books? I mean has he given HBO license to continue should he die without completing the books?

Far as I've read, the HBO guys know how he wants to end the story in the books, so that if the worst happens, they can finish, but how they get there could be quite different.

There are so many subplots/characters that won't be in the TV show...there would be a lot left unresolved if the books weren't finished.

TheIrishGrover

Trojan wrote: »

GRRM and Scott Lynch got together to talk about effective procrastination techniques.

I thought they put that off until next year?

Reekwind

fitz wrote:

I'm with Neil Gaiman on the "GRRM is not your b*tch" stance, but as a reader of his stuff, it's frustrating as hell that he seems to spend so much time on other projects, and is now taking on more.

I'm going to be slightly controversial and suggest that the problem isn't distractions but the self-indulgent writing itself. Jordan wouldn't have left WoT unfinished if he hadn't been writing such meandering and inconsequential books. GRRM isn't quite at that point but the books could be a lot leaner without sacrificing much of the plot (I'm looking at you, Feast for Crows). GRRM needs a strong editor not to chain him to the desk but to tell him to cut out the unnecessary material

Tenger

Reekwind wrote: »

I'm going to be slightly controversial and suggest that the problem isn't distractions but the self-indulgent writing itself. Jordan wouldn't have left WoT unfinished if he hadn't been writing such meandering and inconsequential books............GRRM needs a strong editor not to chain him to the desk but to tell him to cut out the unnecessary material

Dear God yes......I am stubbornly awaiting the end of WoT, but my heart left the series about 4 books ago. I think it was book 8 or 9 that was 1000 pages long and advanced the story exactly 1 month.....what a waste. Jordan meandered all over the place and kept diverting from the actual core plot.

clashburke

Reekwind wrote: »

I'm going to be slightly controversial and suggest that the problem isn't distractions but the self-indulgent writing itself. Jordan wouldn't have left WoT unfinished if he hadn't been writing such meandering and inconsequential books. GRRM isn't quite at that point but the books could be a lot leaner without sacrificing much of the plot (I'm looking at you, Feast for Crows). GRRM needs a strong editor not to chain him to the desk but to tell him to cut out the unnecessary material

ASOIAF is selling too well for an editor to have so much control over GRRM... Its like he says if some thing is going well the ball is in your court time/plot wise. If rating/sales etc. are falling the editors can push more

Reekwind

Yep. And that's the curse of success

I remember an undoubtedly apocryphal story of a young editor who was complaining at a literary party about the decline in quality of Stephen King's books, with the obvious suggestion that he could do better. Only it turned out that King's UK editor was at the same party and she promptly tore him apart by pointing out that if our young gun actually did take a hatchet to King's next novel it would result in either:
a) Sales remaining the same, or marginingly increasing. The legions of King's fans would by the book without really caring about the quality
Or
b) The book was a flop. Which can happen

In the first scenario the editor is an irrelevancy but in the second, who would get the blame? The editor and his over-zealous editing of course. So moral of the story: don't tamper with the golden goose or you'll get the blame when things go wrong. The same unfortunately applies to GRRM as well

Nody

Tenger wrote: »

Dear God yes......I am stubbornly awaiting the end of WoT, but my heart left the series about 4 books ago. I think it was book 8 or 9 that was 1000 pages long and advanced the story exactly 1 month.....what a waste. Jordan meandered all over the place and kept diverting from the actual core plot.

So agree; I gave up after that book and now I'm only completing it (via audio book) for the time already spent and not bothering when the books are released.

Trojan

Tenger wrote: »

Dear God yes......I am stubbornly awaiting the end of WoT, but my heart left the series about 4 books ago. I think it was book 8 or 9 that was 1000 pages long and advanced the story exactly 1 month.....what a waste. Jordan meandered all over the place and kept diverting from the actual core plot.

Nody wrote: »

So agree; I gave up after that book and now I'm only completing it (via audio book) for the time already spent and not bothering when the books are released.

Let me help you avoid reading the gawdawful book 10. Here's what happens:

Egwene moves army to TarValon, gets captured.

All joking aside, that's all you need to move from book 9 to book 11 without missing anything of significance.

Tenger

Don't get me wrong.....I have read all book up to now. But my heart just wasn't in it.

I could go out and buy aMoL today, but I am so unbothered that I can wait for the ebook in May. Something to read while on holidays.

Dan_Solo

As someone who has watched the series but not read any of the books, I've got to say I couldn't give a fig whether GRRM wrote a single word of what I see on screen. It's good fun to watch, but brain is entirely in neutral and I wouldn't notice a bit of difference if the coffee runner wrote the script for the next 10 series.
This isn't to say the books might be the best thing ever, just I don't think it makes much difference to the series.

GerB40

Dan_Solo wrote: »

As someone who has watched the series but not read any of the books, I've got to say I couldn't give a fig whether GRRM wrote a single word of what I see on screen. It's good fun to watch, but brain is entirely in neutral and I wouldn't notice a bit of difference if the coffee runner wrote the script for the next 10 series.
This isn't to say the books might be the best thing ever, just I don't think it makes much difference to the series.

Everything that happens in the series was written by GRRM so of course it makes a difference..

TheIrishGrover

Dan_Solo wrote: »

As someone who has watched the series but not read any of the books, I've got to say I couldn't give a fig whether GRRM wrote a single word of what I see on screen. It's good fun to watch, but brain is entirely in neutral and I wouldn't notice a bit of difference if the coffee runner wrote the script for the next 10 series.
This isn't to say the books might be the best thing ever, just I don't think it makes much difference to the series.

In neutral? then, yeah, you obviously haven't read the books. Not that they are a chore to read it's just that the story is so HUGE and there are so many characters and storylines that it's sometimes hard to get your head around them all. *

As for Martin's input into the series? I'd say it's huge. He was originally a TV writer remember, so he knows how to structure a story. But if Martin doesn't finish the books then the TV writers can do what they want. There are things coming up in the next few series that would NEVER have been done on the show if there were no books behind them. They must be done on the show because leaving them out would send the books and the series down totally different paths. But the paths the books go down would never have have been attempted if it was just a TV show

* I must reread them myself as I've only read them once and I'm sure I missed a boatload

Dades

I disagree about GRRM requiring a good editor.

At the rate he puts out new books in the series, you have to savour every one. I'm more interested in the journey rather than the destination. He can be as verbose as he likes, afaic.

ixoy

I wonder if his passion for writing the books is waning a little bit. Aside from Wild Cards, he's got the TV production and associated tours as well as developing a new show for HBO. I imagine he's the wealthiest fantasy genre writer now (JK aside) so he doesn't even need the money. All it comes down to is how much effort he wants to put in.. and is it there?

sin0city

Dades wrote: »

I disagree about GRRM requiring a good editor.

At the rate he puts out new books in the series, you have savour every one. I'm more interested in the journey rather than the destination. He can be as verbose as he likes, afaic.

I agree. I really enjoy the meandering plot lines, lore and side stories. I'm crazy pedantic about flipping back through the books to see where he's mentioned certain characters/places before.

Even if you're not into that at all, I still think the books would lose a lot if stories like the knight of the laughing tree and characters like Asha and Theon Greyjoy and that lunatic Damphair were omitted for the sake of a more streamlined plot. For me, its scope and intricacy is central to why it's such a great story and why I want him to finish the books. You just can't have that kind of scale and character development on television.

sin0city

ixoy wrote: »

I wonder if his passion for writing the books is waning a little bit. Aside from Wild Cards, he's got the TV production and associated tours as well as developing a new show for HBO. I imagine he's the wealthiest fantasy genre writer now (JK aside) so he doesn't even need the money. All it comes down to is how much effort he wants to put in.. and is it there?

I'm sure he wants to finish the books but I'd also imagine that he wants to enjoy his success. What we consider distractions are likely what he considers having fun.

Sleepy

Dades wrote: »

I disagree about GRRM requiring a good editor.

At the rate he puts out new books in the series, you have savour every one. I'm more interested in the journey rather than the destination. He can be as verbose as he likes, afaic.

Ah, I'm not so sure. I think the quality of the prose has deteriorated a little in the later books. It seems the editors are giving him more leeway than they might a less successful author. Were I his editor I'd certainly have taken him to task over a lot of the repeated use of bad phrases "nuncle", "nipples on a breastplate" etc.

Dan_Solo

GerB40 wrote: »

Everything that happens in the series was written by GRRM so of course it makes a difference..

Well, like, sheesh, obviously it would be different.
Thought it was pretty obvious I was saying it would make little difference to the quality of the story or my enjoyment of the series. I'm not saying anything about the books as I haven't read them, but what I see on screen could be any generic "fantasy", though obviously at the human-centric relatively magic-free end of the spectrum.

Sleepy

Dan, what you're failing to take into account is that this series was actually born out of the frustration of being a TV writer. GRRM got so sick of writing to budgets and the constraints of TV writing e.g. casting that he wrote this epic as an "unfilmable" piece of fantasy. Were this in the hands of most TV writers, many of the big shock moments wouldn't be in it as most TV writers don't get to kill off their leading man in the first season.

Yes, someone else could finish it off if needed but it couldn't be the same. Even as it stands the series is diverging from the books on certain things (characters being changed, merged, written out altogether).

If you think Game of Thrones is "generic" fantasy, you've not read/watched much fantasy!

Reekwind

Sleepy wrote: »

Dan, what you're failing to take into account is that this series was actually born out of the frustration of being a TV writer. GRRM got so sick of writing to budgets and the constraints of TV writing e.g. casting that he wrote this epic as an "unfilmable" piece of fantasy

And, perhaps ironically, I think that the TV series has benefited from having these constraints. It's produced a more intimate character-driven narrative that does move along at a decent pace. But the bigger changes will come when we get to the later books when there is a lot of bloat that can be cut away

Were this in the hands of most TV writers, many of the big shock moments wouldn't be in it as most TV writers don't get to kill off their leading man in the first season.

Obviously those working for HBO do...

Trojan

Sleepy wrote: »

most TV writers don't get to kill off their leading man in the first season

Unless he's played by Sean Bean and we all know he's toast before the curtain raises.

Trojan

ixoy wrote: »

I imagine he's the wealthiest fantasy genre writer now so he doesn't even need the money. All it comes down to is how much effort he wants to put in..

I hear Brandon Sanderson is at a bit of a loose end now...

Sleepy

Reekwind wrote: »

And, perhaps ironically, I think that the TV series has benefited from having these constraints. It's produced a more intimate character-driven narrative that does move along at a decent pace. But the bigger changes will come when we get to the later books when there is a lot of bloat that can be cut away

I'm not so sure, I think some of the changes have been for the best but there's so much stuff in the "bloat" of the later books that I think it'd be a shame to lose... I'm not so sure the current approach has done a huge amount for some of the characterisation either: yes, Robb's role has increased substantially but Jon's character hasn't been done any favours by it.

Obviously those working for HBO do...

To be fair, HBO aren't anything like the networks GRRM would have been writing for and, as a big fan of much of their other output, they don't shy away from killing off major characters, it's one of the benefits of their being a subscription rather than ratings based channel.

Reekwind

Sleepy wrote: »

I'm not so sure, I think some of the changes have been for the best but there's so much stuff in the "bloat" of the later books that I think it'd be a shame to lose... I'm not so sure the current approach has done a huge amount for some of the characterisation either: yes, Robb's role has increased substantially but Jon's character hasn't been done any favours by it

Generally I think the writers have done quite well; the portrayal of Jamie and Cersei, for example, is remarkably well done given that we don't see into their heads until the third book. So while a sense of 'epicness' may have been lost, I don't think that the core story or characters has been harmed

What we don't have are the history lessons on every house (both literal and metaphorical) or valley. We, hopefully, won't have the meandering of later books. I mean, be honest, how much of Feast for Crows do you think will actually make it onto the TV? Strip out the history and condense the plot and you could probably summarise the whole book across two episodes. Even with content from ADWD spliced in

Some people love this stuff but personally I see great value in keeping a plot relatively lean and spending the time with characterisation and dialogue (both thankfully cheap for TV)

Dan_Solo

Sleepy wrote: »

Dan, what you're failing to take into account is that this series was actually born out of the frustration of being a TV writer. GRRM got so sick of writing to budgets and the constraints of TV writing e.g. casting that he wrote this epic as an "unfilmable" piece of fantasy. Were this in the hands of most TV writers, many of the big shock moments wouldn't be in it as most TV writers don't get to kill off their leading man in the first season.

No relevance really. Whatever he thought were the constraints of budgets and CGI in the early 1990s, it has no bearing on whether what he wrote was generic or not. Why would it?

Sleepy wrote: »

Yes, someone else could finish it off if needed but it couldn't be the same. Even as it stands the series is diverging from the books on certain things (characters being changed, merged, written out altogether).

Sure, it wouldn't be the same. That isn't to say it wouldn't be just as good. I know it's great when "your" author gets a series or movie, but what I see on screen isn't anything special. How many live action swords and sorcery TV series do you have to compare it to? Wizards And Warriors?

Sleepy wrote: »

If you think Game of Thrones is "generic" fantasy, you've not read/watched much fantasy!

And if you think it isn't generic you haven't exactly been around the fantasy block either mate.
Nothing here that hasn't been covered by anybody from Lieber, Gygax or a host other in spades. Northern earthy barbarians versus sneaky southern city types with some semi-extinct dragons and Mongolian nomads thrown in... nope, every bit of it 100% groundbreaking!

sin0city

Of course it wouldn't be as good if someone else finished it. Sorry, but it's just twaddle to suggest otherwise. It is his series from his imagination.

As to whether it's generic or not, it's only generic in so much as all high fantasy is generic. That's like saying a crime writer is writing generic novels. In any event, without having read the books your opinion on the series is half baked. It's like judging Tolkien's work on the movies alone.

Nody

sin0city wrote: »

Of course it wouldn't be as good if someone else finished it. Sorry, but it's just twaddle to suggest otherwise. It is his series from his imagination.

As to whether it's generic or not, it's only generic in so much as all high fantasy is generic. That's like saying a crime writer is writing generic novels. In any event, without having read the books your opinion on the series is half baked. It's like judging Tolkien's work on the movies alone.

Are you trying to tell me that Legolas is not snowboarding on a shield in the books?! :eek:

As a side note I had a discussion with a youth a few years ago who read Tolkien after seeing the movies and complained how the books were "wrong" because they did not include what happened in the movies...

sin0city

Nody wrote: »

Are you trying to tell me that Legolas is not snowboarding on a shield in the books?! :eek:

As a side note I had a discussion with a youth a few years ago who read Tolkien after seeing the movies and complained how the books were "wrong" because they did not include what happened in the movies...

Trying...to...restrain myself...from launching into an elitist sounding diatribe. They didn't even have Tom Bombadil ffs.

Reekwind

sin0city wrote: »

Of course it wouldn't be as good if someone else finished it. Sorry, but it's just twaddle to suggest otherwise. It is his series from his imagination

But Westeros is no longer his exclusive property. You could argue that the books would suffer if written by anyone other than GRRM but the TV series is already its own creature. The show has diverged from the source novels in small, but increasing, ways and it's far from absurd to suggest that the writers can create a great narrative that does the (potentially) unfinished series justice

Trying...to...restrain myself...from launching into an elitist sounding diatribe. They didn't even have Tom Bombadil ffs.

A classic example of where cutting is good. Whatever flaws the LOTR films may have had, the absence of Tom Bombadil was not amongst them

What works in print (and I don't believe that Bombadil ever did) does not necessarily translate well on the screen. The author of the adoption has to decide what to keep, what to ditch and where to improvise so that the essence of the original work, not the details, crosses across to the new medium satisfactorily. That's what determines whether an adoption is great or not, not the retention of minor subplots or specifics

sin0city

Reekwind wrote: »

But Westeros is no longer his exclusive property. You could argue that the books would suffer if written by anyone other than GRRM but the TV series is already its own creature. The show has diverged from the source novels in small, but increasing, ways and it's far from absurd to suggest that the writers can create a great narrative that does the (potentially) unfinished series justice

A classic example of where cutting is good. Whatever flaws the LOTR films may have had, the absence of Tom Bombadil was not amongst them

What works in print (and I don't believe that Bombadil ever did) does not necessarily translate well on the screen. The author of the adoption has to decide what to keep, what to ditch and where to improvise so that the essence of the original work, not the details, crosses across to the new medium satisfactorily. That's what determines whether an adoption is great or not, not the retention of minor subplots or specifics

Fair point regarding the completion of the television series.

As regards Tom, I was replying to the books being "wrong" and understand why he wasn't in the movies. It was an example of how much is lost when books are adapted.

I cannot believe you have no love for Tom Bombadil in the books and like LOTR. He is one of the best characters in the trilogy in my opinion.

Reekwind

sin0city wrote: »

I cannot believe you have no love for Tom Bombadil in the books and like LOTR. He is one of the best characters in the trilogy in my opinion.

I'd hate Tom if that didn't mean wasting any more time thinking about him. But that's not the point

You might love Bombadil, you may hate him but I don't believe that anyone would seriously contest that the insertion of 15-30min of hobbits dancing in the woods would have enriched the films. Again, it's a case of the film having to be evaluated on its own merits, as opposed to how it differs from the books

sin0city

Reekwind wrote: »

I'd hate Tom if that didn't mean wasting any more time thinking about him. But that's not the point

You might love Bombadil, you may hate him but I don't believe that anyone would seriously contest that the insertion of 15-30min of hobbits dancing in the woods would have enriched the films. Again, it's a case of the film having to be evaluated on its own merits, as opposed to how it differs from the books

Alright, steady on about Tom! What's not to like? He is funny, happy, mysterious and ridiculously powerful. He is a part of middle earth and yet removed from it and he plays with the ring like it's a toy. You might want to read some non-fiction if you hate Tom Bombadil. He embodies a lot of what is great about fiction/fantasy.

I get what you're saying about judging the films on their own merits but I don't think a movie/television adaptation of a book is ever judged solely on its own merits. You can't sever the movie from its source and in reality people always talk about which they thought was better and how they compare.