Limerick Mayor calls for deportation of unemployed EU nationals

Tilt Gone

Too many people forget what Ireland was like not so long ago. A lot of you guys on here should pick up a history book or two.

You can tell a lot about somone, by how they treat a person who means nothing to him/her.

Liam Byrne

mike65 wrote: »

Like the idiot Mayor of Limerick I was having an ill-informed rant.

I didn't see the Mayor suggesting that all immigrants were criminals.

And there's nothing "ill-informed" about suggesting that unemployed people should go home.....it doesn't actually require any "information".

Of course, neither do ignorant, pathetic snide remarks, so there's some parallel.

Liam Byrne

dr.bollocko wrote: »

If you take issue with it please counter it with an argument of your own. I would also advise to circumvent the use of legalese in future.

What ?

Since when do you have to "counter" ignorant, pathetic generalisations and slander ?

If I posted "all blacks are XXXX" or "all gays are YYYYYY", then I'd be crucified and probably infracted. And rightly so.

JP Liz

THE Mayor of Limerick, Cllr Kevin Kiely, has called for the deportation of EU-nationals who have failed to secure employment since their arrival here.
"I'm calling for anybody who is living in the State and who can't afford to pay for themselves to be deported after three months. We are borrowing €400 million per week to maintain our own residents and we can't afford it," the outspoken politician said this Wednesday.

"During the good times it was grand but we can't afford the current situation unless the EU is willing to step in and pay for non-nationals," he said

The president of the Irish-Polish Cultural and Business Association, Pat O'Sullivan, has called on the Mayor to withdraw his comments. "I am shocked, I am taken aback by those comments and it is shocking and dangerous talk," he said.

"EU nationals have a legal right to be here and calling for them to be deported shows an extraordinary lack of understanding of our place in Europe and how the world views us as a people," he added.

Mayor Kiely has denied his comments amount to racism.

"I'm not racist but it is very simple, we can't continue to borrow €400 million a week and the Government has to pull a halt and say enough is enough unless the EU intervenes and pays some sort of a subvention," he insisted.

Today FM Matt Cooper on about this now

Mena

D-A-V-E wrote: »

i agree that the eu nationals should be payed if they were paying tax but non eu nationals that are claiming the dole should not be allowed anymore, its time we take care of our own first an foremost and put a cap on the amount of immigrants allowed in, like what they're starting to do in britain

So I've been paying my PRSI for nothing then? If I happened to lose my job you're saying I should just feck right off? Sure, I'll agree with this, but I want 10 years PRSI back with interest thanks. I accept cash.

dr.bollocko

Liam Byrne wrote: »

What ?

Since when do you have to "counter" ignorant, pathetic generalisations and slander ?

If I posted "all blacks are XXXX" or "all gays are YYYYYY", then I'd be crucified and probably infracted. And rightly so.

One comment was a tongue in cheek comment about a population of circa 50,000 odd in a city that has been demonised to an extent over a proportionately large number of criminal and otherwise antisocial acts. A bit of the old AH banter if you will.
It would not compare to all blacks are XXXX or all gays are YYYY which is, as you say, not on.
We're dragging this thread a bit OT so please PM me if you have anything else to say on the matter.

Aidric

"During the good times it was grand but we can't afford the current situation unless the EU is willing to step in and pay for non-nationals," he said

The usual convictionless rubbish from our public representatives. Reactionary populist policy instead of any modicum of foresight.

twanda

I don't see much wrong with his statement either, to be honest.
It's done here in Denmark, even though it's an EU country.
I had to have a job here before they would give me a residence permit. Otherwise I was only legally allowed stay for a few months.

I am also not entitled to the dole here until I have been paying €50 quid a month 'unemployment insurance' (separate to my income tax) for at least a year. That's the same for the Danes aswell.

ncmc

This is the most ridiculous statement I have ever heard. Take my sister in law who is foreign national. She has been living here and working here for the past 10 years. She is married to an Irish man and they have two children. Through no fault of her own, she was made redundant some time back and has been unable to get a new job. Should this woman be deported? What about her Irish children?

It is typical, knee jerk, populist nonsense. People who think this is a good idea need to think about the individual people we are talking about rather than bunching them all together with a 'they stole our jobs' label.

It seems to me that the Mayor, got a taste of publicity after his remarks yesterday and wants more of the same and is spouting any old rubbish to get it.

I have no problem with people who have worked hard in the past claiming the dole they are entitled to. I have more of a problem with the people who have been unemployed all through the Celtic Tiger (the vast majority of whom are Irish). I know several people who have been unemployed for 10 years or more and are still entitled to full dole. It is these people we need to be hitting.

Biro

twanda wrote: »

I don't see much wrong with his statement either, to be honest.
It's done here in Denmark, even though it's an EU country.
I had to have a job here before they would give me a residence permit. Otherwise I was only legally allowed stay for a few months.

I am also not entitled to the dole here until I have been paying €50 quid a month 'unemployment insurance' (separate to my income tax) for at least a year. That's the same for the Danes aswell.

Them Danish scum are so racist... :pac:

gaf1983

Fratton Fred wrote: »

so when I was unemployed last year, I should have been deported back to England, leaving my family in Ireland (unless he proposes deporting Irish dependants of non Irish Nationals as well) to fend for themselves.

He may need to make a bit of room because all the unemployed pikeys (sorry, we now have to call them "Caravan Utilising Nomadic Travellers) in England come from Limerick, still, at least he'll get his driveway tarmacked on the cheap....mister.

There may be one or two flaws in this eejits plan. Still, as long as he's got a job that's the main thing.

You've hit the nail on the head - he's just looking after his own job come next-election by spouting this populist scapegoating nonsense. As has been stated already in this thread, because of our commitments under EU legislation that we as a country signed up for, it's impossible to implement his plan anyway. He's just doing what all local councillors do all the time - spout hot air. Despite their hefty paycheques, their powers are still near useless.

Boskowski

conorhal wrote: »

...When you consider how generous out benefits are here compared to the UK it's not surprising that we are getting welfare tourism by spongers.

Funny how on this thread there seems to be a general consensus on 'how generous our benefits are'.
When on the other thread I call for them to be cut and 'good riddance to the laughable Christmas bonus' people barely seem to get by on these 'generous benefits' and I get hammered for saying this....

<tut> <tut>

walshb

Wasn't it Bertie's government that opened the doors to all the EU countries?

I think Britain&Ireland are the only two EU members with instant access to any person from the EU. Bertie and co opened the floodgates, so I guesss we are stuck with this arrangement for now.

segaBOY

Well if it wasn't people complaining about other EU nationals "taking our jobs" during boom times it's people complaining about them "taking our dole" now.

Will some people ever get over themselves ffs. The whole system needs to be reformed. And that should affect both Irish and other EU nationals instead of just scapegoating one particular section of society when it suits.

walshb

realcam wrote: »

Funny how on this thread there seems to be a general consensus on 'how generous our benefits are'.
When on the other thread I call for them to be cut and 'good riddance to the laughable Christmas bonus' people barely seem to get by on these 'generous benefits' and I get hammered for saying this....

<tut> <tut>

In comparison to the benefits and what's available to foreigners in other EU countries, they damn well are generous. I think this is the point.

Boskowski

Oh and on the subject...


...ah well, as if we didn't know already that the Irish voting system favours retards to gain office...

walshb

segaBOY wrote: »

Well if it wasn't people complaining about other EU nationals "taking our jobs" during boom times it's people complaining about them "taking our dole" now.

Will some people ever get over themselves ffs. The whole system needs to be reformed. And that should affect both Irish and other EU nationals instead of just scapegoating one particular section of society when it suits.

Hold it a second; are you honelstly comparing persons who are specifically COMING here to sponge and claim, to those BORN and bred here who are Irish citizens and are claiming? Now, not all are here simply to claim, but many are, and in this current climate, it's a disaster.

We have enough of our own claming and sponging without damn well oepning tha gates to the rest of the EU, and the world.

segaBOY

walshb wrote: »

Hold it a second; are you honelstly comparing persons who are specifically COMING here to sponge and claim, to those BORN and bred here who are Irish citizens and are claiming? Now, not all are here simply to claim, but many are, and in this current climate, it's a disaster.

Ok quote me if I'm wrong but can you come here, pay no PRSI and still claim benefits? Always thought some level of PRSI had to be paid by other EU nationals.

Liam Byrne

realcam wrote: »

Funny how on this thread there seems to be a general consensus on 'how generous our benefits are'.
When on the other thread I call for them to be cut and 'good riddance to the laughable Christmas bonus' people barely seem to get by on these 'generous benefits' and I get hammered for saying this....

Ah, don't fret, realcam; you can spout any rubbish and claim any ridiculous sweeping generalisation on this thread and not have to back it up with facts or proof or retract it !

Thankfully, some people have posted considered, factual posts, so there's no basis for me to be ignorant and generalise that "this thread is comprised of lies and bull****".......

As Mr Tayto says.....there's always one :rolleyes:

walshb

segaBOY wrote: »

Ok quote me if I'm wrong but can you come here, pay no PRSI and still claim benefits? Always thought some level of PRSI had to be paid by other EU nationals.

Look, there are people here who have never worked a single day on this island and they are getting hand outs. Whether it be free housing, medical cards etc. That cannot and should not be happening.

Now, I am not saying let them freeze to death on the streets or starve to death. But, the opening of the gates to ALL should never have been allowed.

Liam Byrne

walshb wrote: »

Look, there are people here who have never worked a single day on this island and they are getting hand outs.

100% true, and it needs to be stopped. Long overdue!

The fact is, though, that not all of those doing this are foreign.

walshb

Liam Byrne wrote: »

100% true, and it needs to be stopped. Long overdue!

The fact is, though, that not all of those doing this are foreign.

Yes, I know this. That's my whole point. We have enough Irish doing it without importing them in:)

netwhizkid

We can't deport EU citizens and like it not this is the future going forward. We should not apply the same freedoms to Bulgarians and Romanians as their economics and ours are totally incompatible, a weeks dole here is more than a good months wage there so we would be taken advantage of. What is needed is for all EU migrants to be allowed to claim back their stamps in Jobseekers Benefit and when that runs out, no more money, also stop paying Jobseekers Allowance, Rent Allowance, child payments etc. If they have the stamps up then yes, otherwise no. This is not exclusive to Eastern Europe there is a sh1tload of English over here on Welfare Tourism, quite often with dreadlocks (you know the type)!

Eastern Europeans have made good contributions to our economy and continue to do so, we can't turf them out now because we have fallen on hard times, Welfare tightening yes, Deportation no. Deport Non-EU nationals not working alright.

Liam Byrne

walshb wrote: »

Yes, I know this. That's my whole point. We have enough Iris doing it without importing them in:)

Not the point, really.

If there's one consistent approach across everyone like this, then fair enough.

As I said earlier, the same mayor suggested earlier in the week that all Irish unemployed should do "community work" in order to qualify for the dole.

So I see nothing wrong with allowing ANYONE to do this, regardless of their nationality.

I also see nothing wrong - in principle - with the Australian or Denmark or American model whereby if you're not contributing your out (not solely based on employment, though - if someone unemployed chips in teaching kids to play soccer or something, that's OK by me too, like I said).

All I said earlier was that the Mayor's comment IS NOT RACIST; I'll defend him from that; there's been more racist and objectionable comments on this thread than the mayor's comment itself.

BUT I never said it was a brilliant idea, particularly given that if every country did it and sent the Irish home, we'd probably sink.

gaf1983

walshb wrote: »

Wasn't it Bertie's government that opened the doors to all the EU countries?

I think Britain&Ireland are the only two EU members with instant access to any person from the EU. Bertie and co opened the floodgates, so I guesss we are stuck with this arrangement for now.

Sweden allowed workers from the accession states move here to work when they joined too. The other 12 EU countries got opt-outs from the free movement of labour clause, but this was only a temporary opt-out, I think it was supposed to last either 3 or 5 years can't remember which.

herya

Arsonist wrote: »

non irish on the dole should be the same amount their country pays. it would make them go home because they couldn't afford to stay here

Can the Irish in Spain claim their Irish dole when living and formerly working there? Honest question - I don't know?

How can a country be obliged to pay the dole if another country had collected this person's taxes? Unless the tax follows the person of course. In which case many countries would only be delighted to accept this solution - they'd collect a lot in Irish level taxes and pay out peanuts in their lower dole.

Crann na Beatha

This post has been deleted.

herya

walshb wrote: »

Hold it a second; are you honelstly comparing persons who are specifically COMING here to sponge and claim, to those BORN and bred here who are Irish citizens and are claiming? Now, not all are here simply to claim, but many are, and in this current climate, it's a disaster..

The mayor says nothing about people who "are coming here to sponge and claim" (which is welfare fraud and should obviously be dealt with), he'd deport everybody even if they had worked and contributed for ages only having been made redundant recently.

walshb

herya wrote: »

The mayor says nothing about people who "are coming here to sponge and claim" (which is welfare fraud and should obviously be dealt with), he'd deport everybody even if they had worked and contributed for ages only having been made redundant recently.

I know well what he said, he stopped short of saying a lot more I imagine.

I never said anything about fraud or illegal. They are being given this, they aren't all scamming it. Some are fraudulent and some are genuinely getting hand outs. I say NO to both. Take the 1000 Euro for any child under 6 from the EU. There is one legal shambles if ever I sw one.

Liam Byrne

Iolar wrote: »

I do agree with some of the mayors sentiments but to treat all foreign national people as the kind of dole cheats isnt very fair or accurate

And where, exactly, do people think he did this ?

Thread title does not say

"Limerick Mayor calls all foreign nationals dole cheats" or "Limerick Mayor calls for deportation of EU nationals"

It says : "Limerick Mayor calls for deportation of unemployed EU nationals"

Firstly, even the NewsTalk site that spawned that title says:

Councillor Kevin Kiely says anyone living here who ‘can’t afford to pay for themselves’ should be sent home after three months.

He did not use the emotive / judgemental word "deported", which is associated with wrongdoing and criminality. This is an editorial bias / screwup (delete as appropriate) by NewsTalk.

And while there is some overlap between the "unemployed EU nationals" subset and any hardworking immigrants who have only recently lost their jobs (and yes, that's slightly careless of him, leaving himself open to the current witch-hunt) the fact is that there is no racism or REALLY objectionable angle to his comment.

Are there better options ? Maybe.

But his comments are not that objectionable or racist.

herya

walshb wrote: »

I never said anything about fraud or illegal. They are being given this, they aren't scamming it. Some are fraudulent and some are genuinely getting hand outs. I say NO to both.

So what do you say to those who have been living here, working and paying taxes, starting families, and are now unemployed?

walshb

herya wrote: »

So what do you say to those who have been living here, working and paying taxes, starting families, and are now unemployed?

Hey, we are in the club, we signed up for this, so we have to accept this.
I may not agree with it, but I have to accept it. That's what The EU
is about

Crann na Beatha

This post has been deleted.

mike65

Would the Mayor break up a family if say one parent was a EU foreigner and was made redundent and then ran out of stamps. (soz if this has been cited as a possibility)

herya

Liam Byrne wrote: »

He did not use the emotive / judgemental word "deported", which is associated with wrongdoing and criminality. This is an editorial bias / screwup (delete as appropriate) by NewsTalk.

That's the first time I hear about "sending home" as an official procedure How is "sending home" different from "deportation" in legal terms? What is somebody's home is in Ireland?

The Pontiac

I really don't think Kevin Kiely is a racist, or his comments should be perceived as racist remarks. If they are, then I know a lot more racist people than I thought I did.

It's a difficult one tbh. It's a fact that many Eastern Europeans claiming the dole in Ireland have a better standard of living here than they would while working in their home country. Is this right? It doesn't give them much of an incentive to seek work at home, or in some other EU country for that matter. It doesn't help with their own economy either. A qualified Polish engineer would rather stay here on social welfare than return to Poland to seek work.

You have to be working here for at least two years before you can claim the dole anyway, so most of the 'EU Nationals' claiming social welfare here are people who came to work. Do we just tell them to leave? I'm not sure. What about the ones who purchased houses here? It's a difficult one, but it's one that needs to be debated at least. We do have some of the highest unemployment benefits in the EU. I don't think Mr Kiely's comments were racist at all.

Liam Byrne

mike65 wrote: »

Would the Mayor break up a family if say one parent was a EU foreigner and was made redundent and then ran out of stamps. (soz if this has been cited as a possibility)

Ah sure Mike, we're all "family" down here in Limerick, all one and the same..... :rolleyes:

herya wrote: »

How is "sending home" different from "deportation" in legal terms?

In legal terms, there may be no difference. In the public's eyes and the tabloid papers / "ring Joe Duffy" brigade, a HUGE difference, as one implies - at least in public perception - wrongdoing, while the other does not.

mike65

Whats especially annoying about this whole business is that some local runs for election to the council gets 878 votes and thinks that means he is the voice of the people.

gaf1983

Limerick 95fm report that Mayor Kiely sought to clarify his remarks today, you can hear what he had to say here:

http://www.live95fm.ie/news/news-item.aspx?arti_guid=ec85342a-ad44-4643-8673-c5cf85415d6f

Basically in the clip in the link he says "...these people, who have no intention of working here, defraud our very generous social welfare system."

Of course, any person, Irish or immigrant, who can work but have no intention of doing so yet claim jobseeker's benefit defrauds the system, it's not just foreigners who are at it and Kiely should be reminded of this fact.

You can hear Sinn Féin's Maurice Quinlivan's criticisms of his remarks here:

http://www.live95fm.ie/news/news-item.aspx?arti_guid=26eba071-6af4-4220-a435-a5a5a904cc74

<Ollie>

<Ollie> wrote: »

We do have some of the highest unemployment benefits in the EU.

I'm not sure that we do. I've heard case after case over the last few months of different European countries that will pay you a percentage of your wages for the first few months that you are unemployed.

Ireland's problem is that we reward both the people who can't be arsed (I'm not sure if I'd even be arsed working minimum wage if I was entitled to the dole. In fact I think between travel/lunch etc I'd come out worse in a job) exactly the same as people who've worked hard for the last 10/20 years and paid their taxes.

I laugh when I see graduates moaning that they won't take a cut in the dole because "They didn't cause the mess" etc. Young people with no commitments should NOT be getting 200+ euros a week for doing nothing.
I'm 24 btw, unemployed student - entitled to *zero*.
I get by on very little every week, I'd would seriously be SWIMMING IN IT if I had 200 euros into my pocket. That's a weekly shop and 2 good nights out..

There are so many benefits at the moment that the only peple losing out are those that are paid less that the average industrial wage ~ 33k and under. With rent allowance/medical cards/free travel etc etc these people have to ask themselves, why not just stay in bed tomorrow morning? It's crappy outside and I'm coming out with a lower standard of living than my nexdoor neighbour on the dole.

Morlar

gaf1983 wrote: »

Irish or immigrant, who can work but have no intention of doing so yet claim jobseeker's benefit defrauds the system, it's not just foreigners who are at it and Kiely should be reminded of this fact.

There is no sign whatsoever that he had forgotten that. The fact is we are stuck with the Irish ones - the question is can we also afford the overflow from the rest of the EU too ? Considering we are the targets for welfare tourism it is a valid question for him to be asking in my view.

gaf1983

mike65 wrote: »

Whats especially annoying about this whole business is that some local runs for election to the council gets 878 votes and thinks that means he is the voice of the people.

Isn't that how parliamentary democracies generally work? He received a mandate from 878 1st preference voters in Limerick City North last June, so isn't he entitled to feel he is the voice of those people at least?

herya

<Ollie> wrote: »

A qualified Polish engineer would rather stay here on social welfare than return to Poland to seek work.

How do you know that? Even if you completely disregard details like ambition, career building or prospects (we are talking professionals here after all) the dole in an expensive country won't win with a full engineer's pay in a cheap country.

dloob

Liam Byrne wrote: »

100% true, and it needs to be stopped. Long overdue!

The fact is, though, that not all of those doing this are foreign.

100% bollox, You have to have worked for two years before you can claim any dole.
You can't just hop on a plane to Ireland and head straight to the dole office.

herya

Liam Byrne wrote: »

In legal terms, there may be no difference. In the public's eyes and the tabloid papers / "ring Joe Duffy" brigade, a HUGE difference, as one implies - at least in public perception - wrongdoing, while the other does not.

So he put a spin on it, note the introduction of "home" to make it sound nicer - as I mentioned how do you know somebody's home is not here?
And they called it as it is in legal terms, how is this wrong?

Morlar

herya wrote: »

How do you know that? Even if you completely disregard details like ambition, career building or prospects (we are talking professionals here after all) the dole in an expensive country won't win with a full engineer's pay in a cheap country.

Not all Poles in Ireland are 'professionals' & not all professionals are exempt from making selfish decisions to stay on generous benefits rather than lose them by taking a lower paying job or return to their home country.

herya

Morlar wrote: »

Not all Poles in Ireland are 'professionals' & not all professionals are exempt from making selfish decisions to stay on generous benefits rather than lose them by taking a lower paying job or return to their home country.

I'm referring to the example of qualified engineer <Ollie> used. Especially with the benefit cuts expected and with the state of job market in Ireland vs Poland I wouldn't worry too much about the engineer dole spongers.

Liam Byrne

herya wrote: »

So he put a spin on it

You're assuming that he did....how do you know

herya wrote: »

as I mentioned how do you know somebody's home is not here?

I already said that if someone is contributing - whether voluntary or working - it shouldn't matter; they're not "sponging" then.

And - for the record - I'd apply the same rule to "our own". Chip in and we'll look after you; sit on your ass and we'll be cutting back.

herya wrote: »

And they called it as it is in legal terms, how is this wrong?

Because we're not in a court, and it led to confusion.

Do you go to a pet shop and ask for "a binding acquisition contract for a canine", or do you ask if you can buy a dog ?

Liam Byrne

dloob wrote: »

100% bollox, You have to have worked for two years before you can claim any dole.
You can't just hop on a plane to Ireland and head straight to the dole office.

Did you even read the post ? :rolleyes: I was making the point that the majority of those doing this ARE IRISH...your "hop on a plane" doesn't even apply!

Liam Byrne

mike65 wrote: »

Whats especially annoying about this whole business is that some local runs for election to the council gets 878 votes and thinks that means he is the voice of the people.

Yeah, it's amazing how some people reckon that 878 people or less represent a whole city....unfortunately some idiots do think that.