Limerick Mayor calls for deportation of unemployed EU nationals

The Pontiac

herya wrote: »

I've no clue but that's what he said: "if they can’t find employment that they should be returned to the country of their origin." Direct quote via the Irish Times. Other papers quote "they should be sent home", see the quote opening this thread. In my understanding the only procedure available is deportation.

Well, if they're not receiving the dole here it's inevitable they'll return to their home country or some other country to seek employment, and that's what I think he meant. I believe he didn't mean this literally, as I know a lot of people that speak like this. But if you believe he did, then there's not much I can do about that. He should have chosen his words more carefully as a politician alright.

herya

<Ollie> wrote: »

Well, if they're not receiving the dole here it's inevitable they'll return to their home country or some other country to seek employment, and that's what I think he meant. I believe he didn't mean this literally, as I know a lot of people that speak like this. But if you believe he did, then there's not much I can do about that. He should have chosen his words more carefully as a politician alright.

I appreciate that you're trying to make what he said more benign and reasonable. But he meant deportation, see another IT quote:

“I’m calling for anybody who is living in the State and who can’t afford to pay for themselves to be deported after three months,” he told the Limerick Leader.

herya

OK the mayor has backpedalled:
http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/Mayor-Kiely-clarifies-position.5821108.jp
and finally:
http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/Mayor-Sorry-I-got-it.5821065.jp

The Pontiac

herya wrote: »

I appreciate that you're trying to make what he said more benign and reasonable. But he meant deportation, see another IT quote:

I don't know much about the guy tbh.

A lot of the EU nationals claiming social welfare here had been working here for many years, and have set up lives for themselves. The minimum anyone should be living here and claiming should be two years. Is it right to send them packing? But we're such a small country, and can we really afford to pay them indefinitely, or should there be a cut off point? How many EU nationals stayed in the UK on £60 a week? Maybe our dole payments should be reduced after a certain period or something.

herya

<Ollie> wrote: »

A lot of the EU nationals claiming social welfare here have been working here for many years, and have set up lives for themselves. The minimum anyone should be living here and claiming should be two years. Is it right to send them packing? But we're such a small country, and can we really afford to pay them indefinitely, or should there be a cut off point? How many EU nationals stayed in the UK on £60 a week? Maybe our dole payments should be reduced after a certain period or something.

I agree with you on this, I think that Irish dole is too generous and some forms of it never run out, am I correct? Especially if you're young and living with the family you can live on it for years. A family of spongers can live on it their whole life.

But still I believe that plugging holes in the welfare system and flushing out spongers (regardless of their nationality) from their cosy sofas would bring savings and improve morals much more than checking passports and getting rid of feckin foreigners, willing to work or not.

JACK_the_LAD

i see nothing wrong with his proposal.

in any case they should receive whatever the going rate in their home country would be.

let them in, but count them i say!

Johnnnybravo

herya wrote: »

I agree with you on this, I think that Irish dole is too generous and some forms of it never run out, am I correct? Especially if you're young and living with the family you can live on it for years. A family of spongers can live on it their whole life.

But still I believe that plugging holes in the welfare system and flushing out spongers (regardless of their nationality) from their cosy sofas would bring savings and improve morals much more than checking passports and getting rid of feckin foreigners, willing to work or not.

Live off the dole then come back an tell me how generous it is :rolleyes:

SWL

herya wrote: »

I agree with you on this, I think that Irish dole is too generous and some forms of it never run out, am I correct? Especially if you're young and living with the family you can live on it for years. A family of spongers can live on it their whole life.

But still I believe that plugging holes in the welfare system and flushing out spongers (regardless of their nationality) from their cosy sofas would bring savings and improve morals much more than checking passports and getting rid of feckin foreigners, willing to work or not.

I think you need to look at things from both sides, you seem to want you bread buttered on both sides on this topic. You constantly refer to spongers regardless of nationality when no Irish person I know wants or respects welfare fraudsters of their own.

Ordinary Irish people who work hard pay their taxes feel "had" by just about everybody from governments to banks etc, this anger has worked its way down to welfare fraud, which includes foreigners, the majority are happy with the procedure in place to pay SW after the benchmarks has been meet, but there has and is fraud being perpetuated.

maybe foreign nationals are getting more media attention, if they are then its up to the foreign community to public show they disagree with this practice, instead of stating the EU law on there entitlement to be here (which is correct)

They need to show they disagree with it this has not happened in my experience. maybe there is resentment about the number of foreigners in the state to be fair Ireland has changed enormously in the last 10 years particularly in the last 5, yet 5 year in and there is no integration, prisoner numbers from accession countries are up, certainly more than from countries like France or Spain which has high number living here also, what I am trying to say it can often be about perception Ireland did welcome the accession states with open arms, that is now changing but foreigners must shoulder some of that responsibility not all but defiantly some, that hospitably was abused, and welfare fraud is part of that abuse. Everbody knows a minority of Irish people do it too and they are certainly not respected for it. Btw discussing this with Irish friends the majority so no even if it was possible to any “deportation” but certainly feel a rigid immigration policy needs to be discussed by political parties.

herya

Ordinary Irish people who work hard pay their taxes feel "had" by just about everybody from governments to banks etc, this anger has worked its way down to welfare fraud, which includes foreigners, the majority are happy with the procedure in place to pay SW after the benchmarks has been meet, but there has and is fraud being perpetuated.

I agree with you. Believe me I feel "had" too seeing as I'll be punished for saving (instead of buying property at peak) and seeing my taxes go God knows where and to whom. But how do you or "ordinary Irish people" make the jump from disagreeing with the welfare fraud or welfare lifestyle and thinking that getting rid of unemployed foreigners will solve it?

maybe foreign nationals are getting more media attention, if they are then its up to the foreign community to public show they disagree with this practice, instead of stating the EU law on there entitlement to be here (which is correct)

To disagree with more media attention? Constant disagreeing and complaining would work wonders for the reception of foreign community, right Maybe people just shouldn't suggest ignorant solutions in the first place?

Or do you mean disagreeing with the practice of welfare lifestyle/abuse? I honestly don't know anybody who supports it, myself being Polish and knowing many non-nationals. Somehow we all work qualified jobs though and don't rely on welfare. Even when I was briefly unemployed I didn't claim my JSB/JSA, I preferred to concentrate on looking for a new job which I found, better and better paid although it was hard indeed.

They need to show they disagree with it this has not happened in my experience. maybe there is resentment about the number of foreigners in the state to be fair Ireland has changed enormously in the last 10 years particularly in the last 5, yet 5 year in and there is no integration

I don't agree with the no integration claim but then again as a living and breathing non-national - as opposed to imaginary strawmen bred here on boards - I find my experience in Ireland has nothing to do with the myths propagated here, from living 6 to a bedroom to choosing Irish welfare over a qualified job in Poland. We integrate fine thank you, I could very well teach you a cupla focal or an advanced hornpipe.

I detest spongers and criminals just like everybody else and believe they should be dealt with. Some of them happen to be of the same nationality as me - what can I do about it apart from being a different example myself? I will however criticise any publicly stated solutions similar in their ingenuity to the idea that if after years of contribution I lose my job I'll be deported after three months, and so will be my French friend and my German friend. And that it will solve the problem of Irish recession and spiralling debt.

ven0m

marcsignal wrote: »

Certainly is, and i can testify to that personally. I was out of work in Germany for a while, and went to the social, and get this !

My GF was living in Munich and was selling her former house outside the city. After a 2 hour 'interview' to see if my paperwork was in order, the social agreed to give me 400Euro a month until I found a job, but because I was co-habiting with my GF (a German National) they considered us a couple, and they wanted us to refund the money I had been paid up to that point, back to the welfare, as soon as she had sold her house.

could you see that happening here ??

.

I had the same experience in the UK, & even the argument that my then other half was in her final year as a student there held no sway 'Sorry sir, repay or get prosecuted' & we didn't have a bean to our friggin name!

Ronando

Some numbers put on the whole issue. And a great Mayor Quimby quote:
A Modest Proposal for preventing the foreign people in Ireland from being a burden to the country

Punchline: net contribution to the Government finances over the past 12 months from Eastern Europeans = about €700m

I think they can stay!

topper75

Ronando wrote: »

Some numbers put on the whole issue. And a great Mayor Quimby quote:
A Modest Proposal for preventing the foreign people in Ireland from being a burden to the country

Punchline: net contribution to the Government finances over the past 12 months from Eastern Europeans = about €700m

I think they can stay!

LOL! Demagoguery almost cost us €700m. That is €700m we can ill afford to lose these days. There is no substitute for thinking. Some good research there.

herya

Ronando wrote: »

I think they can stay!

Big sigh of relief... I'll go put some money into the economy in my local tonight! :cool:

SWL

herya wrote: »

I agree with you. Believe me I feel "had" too seeing as I'll be punished for saving (instead of buying property at peak) and seeing my taxes go God knows where and to whom. But how do you or "ordinary Irish people" make the jump from disagreeing with the welfare fraud or welfare lifestyle and thinking that getting rid of unemployed foreigners will solve it?


To disagree with more media attention? Constant disagreeing and complaining would work wonders for the reception of foreign community, right Maybe people just shouldn't suggest ignorant solutions in the first place?

Or do you mean disagreeing with the practice of welfare lifestyle/abuse? I honestly don't know anybody who supports it, myself being Polish and knowing many non-nationals. Somehow we all work qualified jobs though and don't rely on welfare. Even when I was briefly unemployed I didn't claim my JSB/JSA, I preferred to concentrate on looking for a new job which I found, better and better paid although it was hard indeed.


I don't agree with the no integration claim but then again as a living and breathing non-national - as opposed to imaginary strawmen bred here on boards - I find my experience in Ireland has nothing to do with the myths propagated here, from living 6 to a bedroom to choosing Irish welfare over a qualified job in Poland. We integrate fine thank you, I could very well teach you a cupla focal or an advanced hornpipe.

I detest spongers and criminals just like everybody else and believe they should be dealt with. Some of them happen to be of the same nationality as me - what can I do about it apart from being a different example myself? I will however criticise any publicly stated solutions similar in their ingenuity to the idea that if after years of contribution I lose my job I'll be deported after three months, and so will be my French friend and my German friend. And that it will solve the problem of Irish recession and spiralling debt.

Firstly your personnel comment about me being a “straw man bred on boards” says more about you than me. I have stated openly I am a foreigner with an Irish parent, my email contains one of my names and can be verified, just because I don’t agree with the stance of most foreigners in Ireland i.e. victim hood because they have made no effort to integrate don’t not been my point are less valid so maybe keep to discussing the topic instead of being petulant. You may have integrated but then you must be in the minority, in my experience lots don’t bother, I could give example but it would be pointless you will disagree, I can also tell you how I have integrated with magnificent success if you like.

Again you want it buttered on both sides - the mayor was talking about people who haven’t contributed to the system, how they do it I don't know but that is what he is saying, not getting rid of unemployed foreigners, get rid of the ones who haven’t paid into the system. He was discussed getting people to work in the community while unemployed to boast their moral and benefit society. As a foreigner I agree with him on both counts.

I certainly didn’t say that unemployed foreigners should “be got rid of” that your interoperation which is incorrect.

My Irish is quite proficient thanks have contributed to Ireland as much as the next person, I am self employed and will receive nothing in welfare payments if I require it, by al means criticize his idea, but maybe propose something to save taxpayers money, it wont solve the recession but it is a start, and considering that all the borrowing is to pay for the Public Service and Welfare its an important first step, and one that has to take place. Its ok for me I can leave any time I like.
.

herya

SWL wrote: »

Firstly your personnel comment about me being a “straw man bred on boards” says more about you than me.

Please read this paragraph once again then because I wasn't referrring personally to you in any way, "imaginary strawmen bred on boards" refer to all those lovely stories of primitive Eastern Europeans renting a 2-bed house between a dozen and getting drunk on Lidl beer as their only entertainment. Oh and getting free cars once you arrive in the country.

I am worried to think my English is so bad as to be so misconstrued.

I have stated openly I am a foreigner with an Irish parent, my email contains one of my names and can be verified, just because I don’t agree with the stance of most foreigners in Ireland i.e. victim hood because they have made no effort to integrate don’t not been my point are less valid so maybe keep to discussing the topic instead of being petulant. You may have integrated but then you must be in the minority, in my experience lots don’t bother, I could give example but it would be pointless you will disagree, I can also tell you how I have integrated with magnificent success if you like.

I believe you all right. I'd still be interested to see how you prove this: "the stance of most foreigners in Ireland i.e. victim hood because they have made no effort to integrate". Based on statistics I believe that most immigrants do indeed work (i.e. must speak at least working English), interact with their colleagues, have friends, shop, go out etc etc. What kind of integration do you expect apart from this? What is that all Irish people do and the immigrants don't?

Again you want it buttered on both sides - the mayor was talking about people who haven’t contributed to the system, how they do it I don't know but that is what he is saying, not getting rid of unemployed foreigners, get rid of the ones who haven’t paid into the system. He was discussed getting people to work in the community while unemployed to boast their moral and benefit society. As a foreigner I agree with him on both counts.

He published several version of what he suggested, each milder than the previous one up until the final apology (after he was asked to resign over this). As the original website is down I can't check it for you now but it was widely reported as "people who can't pay for themselves should be sent home after three months", see the original post in this thread, and discussed accordingly.

I do agree wholeheartedly about eliminating benefits for people who do not contribute in any way, it's a long way to deportation though.

My Irish is quite proficient thanks have contributed to Ireland as much as the next person, I am self employed and will receive nothing in welfare payments if I require it, by al means criticize his idea, but maybe propose something to save taxpayers money.

It's been started already and it's a detailed screening of all welfare claims. They have brought substantial savings already and should continue on a large scale so that the welfare system is lean and efficient with no loopholes and no lifestyle incentives. That's all.

The Pontiac

The 'free movement of persons' EU law is greatly misunderstood here. For a EU citizen to work and/or reside in another EU state, certain conditions can be imposed on the citizen if the host nation wishes to do so.. One would think by reading this thread the all EU citizens have equal rights regardless of what EU country the person is living in. Even Willie O'Dea in his defence of The Lord Mayor gave the wrong impression, implying that it was against EU law for the proposed 'deportation' of EU nationals by The Mayor.

For stays of less than three months, the only requirement on Union citizens is that they possess a valid identity document or passport. The host Member State may require the persons concerned to register their presence in the country within a reasonable and non-discriminatory period of time.

Right of residence for more than six months
The right of residence for more than six months remains subject to certain conditions. Applicants must:

• either be engaged in economic activity (on an employed or self-employed basis);
• or have sufficient resources and sickness insurance to ensure that they do not become a burden on the social services of the host Member State during their stay. The Member States may not specify a minimum amount which they deem sufficient, but they must take account of personal circumstances;
• or be following vocational training as a student and have sufficient resources and sickness insurance to ensure that they do not become a burden on the social services of the host Member State during their stay;
• or be a family member of a Union citizen who falls into one of the above categories.

Right of permanent residence
Union citizens acquire the right of permanent residence in the host Member State after a five-year period of uninterrupted legal residence, provided that an expulsion decision has not been enforced against them. This right of permanent residence is no longer subject to any conditions. The same rule applies to family members who are not nationals of a Member State and who have lived with a Union citizen for five years. The right of permanent residence is lost only in the event of more than two successive years' absence from the host Member State.
Union citizens who so request receive a document certifying their right to permanent residence. The Member States issue to third country family members permanent residence permits which are valid indefinitely and renewable automatically every ten years no later than six months after the application is made. Citizens can use any form of evidence generally accepted in the host Member State to prove that they have been continuously resident.