"Irish franchise for Premier League?" [Mod Note: See Post #1]

DSB

drkpower wrote: »

Give me a break!:D

"rugby teams just aren't as passionately supported as football teams"; What are you talking about...?!! Do you have a table of 'most paasionately supported sports'? And what relevance is it to this debate?

Try and actually address the issue rather than making generic points about the extraordinary pasion you supposedly have for football. And try not to be clouded by your obvious emotion on this issue, you will come to a more sober conclusion....;)

And forgive me if I dont take lectures in 'support' from those who 'follow' teams from various areas in the UK merely by virtue of who was poplular in 1985 or who their big brother supported....! I'll take the passion of a Leinster or Munster supporter over that any day.

I actually support Shels but how and ever. And what do you mean address the issue? Do you want me to discuss it as regards to how successful it would be? Because in this country I imagine it would be successful,but that doesn't change a thing.

drkpower

DSB wrote: »

I actually support Shels but how and ever. And what do you mean address the issue? Do you want me to discuss it as regards to how successful it would be? Because in this country I imagine it would be successful,but that doesn't change a thing.

I mean address the issue as to objectively why it is wrong. And not with entirley subjective arguments like 'football is soooo passionate', 'it is sooo much more 'followed' than other sports' or 'its just wrong'. That is not an argument, its just your own views and prejudices.

Walsh

It's the ENGLISH Premier League for a reason. (Waits for the Swansea/Cardfiff smart remark)

wicklowdub

Irish people are event junkies, it would get support for the first 8-9 games but die a death once the team gets relegated. Not that is ever going to happen in the first place, Its a lot handier for them to get a team from Glasgow and they dont want to share the tv money with them.

We would be better of getting an American Football franchise than a PL one, at least there would be nice women dancing on the pitch and you could get a beer and nachos!

DSB

drkpower wrote: »

I mean address the issue as to objectively why it is wrong. And not with entirley subjective arguments like 'football is soooo passionate', 'it is sooo much more 'followed' than other sports' or 'its just wrong'. That is not an argument, its just your own views and prejudices.

Its hardly an opinion, even the smallest smidgen of research would show you how passionate football fans are about their clubs, yes I'm sure its the same for some people with rugby and other sports too, but I don't think its near the same. History is everything, and the true supporters of a club will always be fascinated by that. Of course you'll come out with a 'well history has to start somewhere', but in this case there is no need for that to start, there are 6 senior football clubs in Dublin already. If people prefer to support English Premiership teams, that is fine, but there is no need to start something fake and plastic over here, just to make it so some people can have the best of both worlds. There has been Dublin clubs since the 19th century, there are clubs in the Premiership who have been around since the 19th century. Football is a beautiful thing, and there is no need to soil it even further so that event junkies like you can have all their preferences catered to.

drkpower

Walsh wrote: »

It's the ENGLISH Premier League for a reason. (Waits for the Swansea/Cardfiff smart remark)

Swansea and Cardiff arent in the Premier League....?:rolleyes:

But if the English PL admit Scottish teams and if Welsh teams are entitled to be promoted into it, it is no longer the English Pl. So, then we can join. Sorted.

DSB

drkpower wrote: »

Swansea and Cardiff arent in the Premier League....?:rolleyes:

But if the English PL admit Scottish teams and if Welsh teams are entitled to be promoted into it, it is no longer the English Pl. So, then we can join. Sorted.

Just because we could, doesn't mean we should.

drkpower

DSB wrote: »

Of course you'll come out with a 'well history has to start somewhere', but in this case there is no need for that to start, there are 6 senior football clubs in Dublin already. If people prefer to support English Premiership teams, that is fine, but there is no need to start something fake and plastic over here, just to make it so some people can have the best of both worlds. There has been Dublin clubs since the 19th century, there are clubs in the Premiership who have been around since the 19th century. Football is a beautiful thing, and there is no need to soil it even further so that event junkies like you can have all their preferences catered to.

Ok, here are some facts:
1. There is a 'need', in that there is a market for it; as you admitted yourself, it would probably work.
2. The 6 senior clubs in Dublin do not provide top tier level of football; LoI is an inferior product.
3. The public wants a top tier product as evidenced by PL merchandising and SkySPorts take-up.
4. There is nothing fake or plastic about the Magners or Heineken, nor about the fans and players of Leinster & Munster. Pre-1995, while Munster/Leinster, have some history, they were more like representative sides than actual clubs. In 10-15 years, the support for these teams has grown exponentially in rugby, which was always the poor relation in Irish sport.

So, using facts rather than "football is a beautiful thing" rubbish and "event junkies" perjorativism, it is clear that a Dublin FC is a good thing. I can see you are threatened because you support the LoI and Dublin FC may harm it. But the LoI had its chance, many chances, and it failed. There is no reason to suspect it will rise from where ithas fallen.

Foxx92

I laughed the whole way through the 11 pages. The fact that some people are actually into this idea is hillarious. Some people saying they'd go to matches for this EPL idea yet they wouldn't cross the road for a LOI match.

Ireland will never be able to support any team playing week in week out. Event junkies, sheep, etc.

Johnny Utah

Walsh wrote: »

It's the ENGLISH Premier League for a reason. (Waits for the Swansea/Cardfiff smart remark)

There was a robbery at the Liberty Stadium trophy room recently. They took absolutley everything. The police are looking for two men with a black and white carpet!:D

DSB

drkpower wrote: »

Ok, here are some facts:
1. There is a 'need', in that there is a market for it; as you admitted yourself, it would probably work.
2. The 6 senior clubs in Dublin do not provide top tier level of football; LoI is an inferior product.
3. The public wants a top tier product as evidenced by PL merchandising and SkySPorts take-up.
4. There is nothing fake or plastic about the Magners or Heineken, nor about the fans and players of Leinster & Munster. Pre-1995, while Munster/Leinster, have some history, they were more like representative sides than actual clubs. In 10-15 years, the support for these teams has grown exponentially in rugby, which was always the poor relation in Irish sport.

So, using facts rather than "football is a beautiful thing" rubbish and "event junkies" perjorativism, it is clear that a Dublin FC is a good thing. I can see you are threatened because you support the LoI and Dublin FC may harm it. But the LoI had its chance, many chances, and it failed. There is no reason to suspect it will rise from where ithas fallen.

Well its grand, this won't actually ever happen, and you can continue to look as foolish as you do now.

Foxx92

But the LoI had its chance, many chances, and it failed. There is no reason to suspect it will rise from where ithas fallen.

I may remember this quote for (if the EPL idea goes ahead, which it really wont) the Dub FC matches against Stoke when just a few thousand show up. And the next year when the novelty factor has worn off and the Irish once again show their true colours.

Walsh

drkpower wrote: »

But the LoI had its chance, many chances, and it failed. There is no reason to suspect it will rise from where ithas fallen.

When was this chance? Irish people give nothing a chance as you can see with anything thats ever happened, going off topic but what happened to who wants to be a millionaire, irish people just slagged it cause it was half as good as the english one so it never progressed, nothing ever progresses in this country.

drkpower

DSB wrote: »

Well its grand, this won't actually ever happen, and you can continue to look as foolish as you do now.

Well that's told me.....:rolleyes:

Who knows the future; but it is likely to happen eventually, its just a matter of time. The product is key; and people want the product.

drkpower

Walsh wrote: »

When was this chance? Irish people give nothing a chance as you can see with anything thats ever happened, going off topic but what happened to who wants to be a millionaire, irish people just slagged it cause it was half as good as the english one so it never progressed, nothing ever progresses in this country.

Eh, the LoI has been around for the best part of 100 years.....!:eek:

Who wants to be a Millionaire had a season or two. Good analogy, though....;)

DSB

drkpower wrote: »

Well that's told me.....:rolleyes:

Who knows the future; but it is likely to happen eventually, its just a matter of time. The product is key; and people want the product.

Actual football fans do not. And this includes some English EPL fans, people like you who'd dive onto anything marketed properly would go for this, but thankfully there are real football people employed to make sure something like this doesn't happen.

Walsh

Great analogy actually, everything in this country falls to bits because Irish people hold their standards too high. I've seen pictures of league of ireland football pre sky era and the crowds were up into the 30 and 40 thousands...

drkpower

DSB wrote: »

Actual football fans do not. And this includes some English EPL fans, people like you who'd dive onto anything marketed properly would go for this, but thankfully there are real football people employed to make sure something like this doesn't happen.

"Actual fans"; who are they?
And if Dublin FC came about tomorrow and my kids started following them aged 8 or so, would they not be "actual fans" by the time they are 18?
What is the definition of an actual fan?
You seem to have some respect for Irish fans of English teams. Are they more of an "actual fan" than my kid who may support Dublin FC?

Walsh

Well for instance drkpower i don't consider you a fan as such, more like a customer who wants to invest in a product.

drkpower

Walsh wrote: »

Great analogy actually, everything in this country falls to bits because Irish people hold their standards too high. I've seen pictures of league of ireland football pre sky era and the crowds were up into the 30 and 40 thousands...

Im not sure about 30 and 40K....
Ive seen photos of people pouring out of churches in the 60s and 70s.....
Its c hanged times; we are where we are.

DSB

drkpower wrote: »

"Actual fans"; who are they?
And if Dublin FC came about tomorrow and my kids started following them aged 8 or so, would they not be "actual fans" by the time they are 18?
What is the definition of an actual fan?
You seem to have some respect for Irish fans of English teams. Are they more of an "actual fan" than my kid who may support Dublin FC?

I don't have much respect for the support of English teams by Irish people to be honest. Very little altogether, but I do consider it a much more preferable scenario than the one you are proposing. And I deem it impossible to be an actual fan of a franchise as opposed to a football club.

If you would like the difference between a franchise and a football club. Football clubs were set up for sporting reasons, and still may be in areas where football isn't really there. Franchises are set up to be products, for people like yourself, who have no real interest in being an actual supporter, but like all the glitz that gos along with it.

drkpower

Walsh wrote: »

Well for instance drkpower i don't consider you a fan as such, more like a customer who wants to invest in a product.

And you have made that assessment from what information?
Does it just apply to footballl?
Does it apply to international football?

Do you usually make such judgments after hearing no more than a few sentences from someone?

Walsh

drkpower wrote: »

Im not sure about 30 and 40K....
Ive seen photos of people pouring out of churches in the 60s and 70s.....
Its c hanged times; we are where we are.

Well I am sure, and yes times really have changed because Irish people want to be English all of a sudden.

drkpower

DSB wrote: »

I don't have much respect for the support of English teams by Irish people to be honest. Very little altogether, but I do consider it a much more preferable scenario than the one you are proposing. And I deem it impossible to be an actual fan of a franchise as opposed to a football club.

If you would like the difference between a franchise and a football club. Football clubs were set up for sporting reasons, and still may be in areas where football isn't really there. Franchises are set up to be products, for people like yourself, who have no real interest in being an actual supporter, but like all the glitz that gos along with it.

Well, football doesnt really exist here. LoI isnt the same as top quality football.

Obviously Im a lost cause to you but, tell me, if my kids supported Dublin FC from a very young age, would they be "actual fans"?

drkpower

Walsh wrote: »

Well I am sure, and yes times really have changed because Irish people want to be English all of a sudden.

Yawn....
Sure isnt football an English game....
Lets not go down that bigotted and bitter road.

Walsh

drkpower wrote: »

Well, football doesnt really exist here. LoI isnt the same as top quality football.

Obviously Im a lost cause to you but, tell me, if my kids supported Dublin FC from a very young age, would they be "actual fans"?

Football doesn't exist here?

Football doesn't exist to you here because Andy Gray isn't on the telly glamorizing every single pass made in the match. I'm sure football here would grow unbelieveably if it was on Sky Sports. Bandwagons and all that.

invincibleirish

drkpower wrote: »

Well that's told me.....:rolleyes:

Who knows the future; but it is likely to happen eventually, its just a matter of time. The product is key; and people want the product.

You've drenched your posts with market research and marketing language but i think you ignore the very obvious deficiency in your viewpoint.

Any move by the PL to bring in clubs from other leagues (like the SPL) or establish franchises in foreign cities would break all established conventions and cause all kinds of uproar which would dwarf anything the PL has had to face so far. The FA, the FAI, UEFA & FIFA would all be against it as would the UK popular press, the public and political concerns.

In short there would be a lot of hurdles to clear to see PL football played on Irish soil. Thats a lot of hassle just to see some non SKY TOP 4 PL football, which in itself can be as poor for the average customer as anything they might imagine LoI football to be.

DSB

drkpower wrote: »

Well, football doesnt really exist here. LoI isnt the same as top quality football.

Obviously Im a lost cause to you but, tell me, if my kids supported Dublin FC from a very young age, would they be "actual fans"?

Quality is irrelevant, football exists here, just not to consumers like you who view it as a product, and no I've already stated its impossible to be an actual fan of a franchise.

drkpower

Walsh wrote: »

Football doesn't exist here?

Football doesn't exist to you here because Andy Gray isn't on the telly glamorizing every single pass made in the match. I'm sure football here would grow unbelieveably if it was on Sky Sports. Bandwagons and all that.

Football at the top level doesnt exist; I dont want to see poor quality fare. Just like I dont want to watch the lower leagues if English footballl or the AIL in rugby. Like most things I enjoy, I want to watch the best, not something that is far below the best.

You can call me a consumer, if that makes you feel better.
Just like i can wonder why you want to support something that is objectively far poorer than the alternatives. But I wont; Ill lave you to the LoI while I watch Dublin FC v Arsenal at the soon to be built 50000 Nike Arena.....:rolleyes:

DSB

drkpower wrote: »

Football at the top level doesnt exist; I dont want to see poor quality fare. Just like I dont want to watch the lower leagues if English footballl or the AIL in rugby. Like most things I enjoy, I want to watch the best, not something that is far below the best.

You can call me a consumer, if that makes you feel better.
Just like i can wonder why you want to support something that is objectively far poorer than the alternatives. But I wont; Ill lave you to the LoI while I watch Dublin FC v Arsenal at the soon to be built 50000 Nike Arena.....:rolleyes:

In your dreams you can:D

drkpower

invincibleirish wrote: »

You've drenched your posts with market research and marketing language but i think you ignore the very obvious deficiency in your viewpoint.
.

There are two issues here:
1. Will it happen
2. Should it happen

Your arguments are predominantly about 1. You may be right. PErsonally I feel that eventually commercial concerns will win out and there will be a Dublin FC in either a UK/Irl or a European League. But its all speculation really.

Walsh

drkpower wrote: »

Football at the top level doesnt exist; I dont want to see poor quality fare. Just like I dont want to watch the lower leagues if English footballl or the AIL in rugby. Like most things I enjoy, I want to watch the best, not something that is far below the best.

You can call me a consumer, if that makes you feel better.
Just like i can wonder why you want to support something that is objectively far poorer than the alternatives. But I wont; Ill lave you to the LoI while I watch Dublin FC v Arsenal at the soon to be built 50000 Nike Arena.....:rolleyes:

The league of Ireland will never progress if people dont pay in to grounds to watch the football, there is no money and there never will be if people dont get off their arses and support their local team. Oh and the last be, you can do that, i'll be the one laughing at you paying 60 euro every week to watch your team get slaughtered.

Iron Hide

drkpower wrote: »

Give me a break!:D

"rugby teams just aren't as passionately supported as football teams"; What are you talking about...?!! Do you have a table of 'most paasionately supported sports'? And what relevance is it to this debate?

Try and actually address the issue rather than making generic points about the extraordinary pasion you supposedly have for football. And try not to be clouded by your obvious emotion on this issue, you will come to a more sober conclusion....;)

And forgive me if I dont take lectures in 'support' from those who 'follow' teams from various areas in the UK merely by virtue of who was poplular in 1985 or who their big brother supported....! I'll take the passion of a Leinster or Munster supporter over that any day.

See Heineken Cup Semi-Final '06 and '09, and Finals '06, '08 and '09 for further details...

drkpower

DSB wrote: »

Quality is irrelevant, football exists here, just not to consumers like you who view it as a product, and no I've already stated its impossible to be an actual fan of a franchise.

Quality is irrelevent......!! Fair enough; I wholeheartedly disagree.

Its impossible to be an actual fan of a franchise; Ok; so my kids grow up only knowing that Dublin FC are a club down the road; they go to their games every Saturday; they have pictures of the players on the wall, they have Dublin FC duvets; they cry when Dublin FC lose; they celebrate when they win; they lose girlfriends because they insist on going to the match with the lads every Saturday; when Dublin FC get relegayed, they feel physically ill and are depressed for a year; they get theri own kids involved with Dublin FC; they go as a family; they watch Dublin FC win the Eurpoean Cup in 2055; when my kid dies, his kids drape hios coffin with the Dublin FC colours and tell stories of how their Da loved Dublin FC, was loyal to them through thick and thin......

Ah, but neither my kid or his kids are "actual fans" because Dublin FC started as a franchise .

What utter rubbish. Pathetic.

DSB

drkpower wrote: »

Quality is irrelevent......!! Fair enough; I wholeheartedly disagree.

Its impossible to be an actual fan of a franchise; Ok; so my kids grow up only knowing that Dublin FC are a club down the road; they go to their games every Saturday; they have pictures of the players on the wall, they have Dublin FC duvets; they cry when Dublin FC lose; they celebrate when they win; they lose girlfriends because they insist on going to the match with the lads every Saturday; when Dublin FC get relegayed, they feel physically ill and are depressed for a year; they get theri own kids involved with Dublin FC; they go as a family; they watch Dublin FC win the Eurpoean Cup in 2055; when my kid dies, his kids drape hios coffin with the Dublin FC colours and tell stories of how their Da loved Dublin FC, was loyal to them through thick and thin......

Ah, but neither my kid or his kids are "actual fans" because Dublin FC started as a franchise .

What utter rubbish. Pathetic.

What do you mean 'started as a franchise'? Once a franchise, always a franchise.

DSB

Red Storm wrote: »

See Heineken Cup Semi-Final '06 and '09, and Finals '06, '08 and '09 for further details...

It is really easy to be a passionate supporter for big games though.

drkpower

Walsh wrote: »

The league of Ireland will never progress if people dont pay in to grounds to watch the football, there is no money and there never will be if people dont get off their arses and support their local team. Oh and the last be, you can do that, i'll be the one laughing at you paying 60 euro every week to watch your team get slaughtered.

Let me make this clear; if LoI was genuinely viable and could become similar in quality to, for instance, Scotland (similar enough in population to the island), I would support it and would go against this plan (for Dublin FC) to provide the room within which the LoI could breathe.

But, the LoI hasnt been able to show any signs of this revival. It is simply fanciful to believe it will happen.. So, the choice is to go against Dublin FC to prop up a dead duck or accept reality and move on..

drkpower

DSB wrote: »

What do you mean 'started as a franchise'? Once a franchise, always a franchise.

Do you know what a franchise is?

Walsh

drkpower wrote: »

Let me make this clear; if LoI was genuinely viable and could become similar in quality to, for instance, Scotland

More ignorance, the irish league would probably at that standard already but setanta spice 2 well supported teams up and its all gravy, take out celtic and rangers, what do you have?

Derry City 5 - 1 Gretna.

DSB

drkpower wrote: »

Do you know what a franchise is?

Yes. Do you know what supporting a football club is?

drkpower

DSB wrote: »

Yes. Do you know what supporting a football club is?

Humour me; Im interested to know what you consider a franchise to be considering that this is your criteria for determinuing what a 'actual fan' is?

Kenteach

Capello has the English playing a more attractive and better quality game than the Irish team. Do we desert our inferior 'product' and start following the English team (after all they are made up of players from clubs that Irish people cream themselves over every week?)
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, my own is that if you trawl around different sports and different leagues looking for the best quality, your not a supporter, your a consumer. The quality argument is lazy. As many people followed English teams in the 80's and early 90's, when the English product was far from the best quality.

drkpower

Walsh wrote: »

More ignorance, the irish league would probably at that standard already but setanta spice 2 well supported teams up and its all gravy, take out celtic and rangers, what do you have?

Derry City 5 - 1 Gretna.

Haha.
You cant just take out teams to make your point.
Why not take out a few more!!:D

Try and stick to the facts.

DSB

drkpower wrote: »

Humour me; Im interested to know what you consider a franchise to be considering that this is your criteria for determinuing what a 'actual fan' is?

Well I presume you're talking about the McDonalds, Burger King type franchise right?

DSB

drkpower wrote: »

Haha.
You cant just take out teams to make your point.
Why not take out a few more!!:D

Try and stick to the facts.

The point is that those 2 teams greatly distort a standard that is otherwise similar enough to the LOI Premier.

Iron Hide

DSB wrote: »

Well I presume you're talking about the McDonalds, Burger King type franchise right?

Or the way things are run in the US, where franchises are awarded to cities deemed suitable enough.. (NFL, NBA etc..)

Kenteach

drkpower, what were the last EPL and LoI games you attended to comapre the 'product' on show?

DSB

Red Storm wrote: »

Or the way things are run in the US, where franchises are awarded to cities deemed suitable enough.. (NFL, NBA etc..)

Yup I'm aware. Last thing we wanna be doing is following an Americanised model of things, given how much they've bastardised the rest of our society.

drkpower

Kenteach wrote: »

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, my own is that if you trawl around different sports and different leagues looking for the best quality, your not a supporter, your a consumer..

Precisely; I want people to support their own. That is why I want Dublin FC rather than Irish kids supporting Chelsea.

Thanks for the support.

Kenteach wrote: »

The quality argument is lazy. As many people followed English teams in the 80's and early 90's, when the English product was far from the best quality.

Yes, the English game was in an awful state between 1980-1985....!
Teeheehee. Nice one!

A Dub in Glasgo

Walsh wrote: »

More ignorance, the irish league would probably at that standard already but setanta spice 2 well supported teams up and its all gravy, take out celtic and rangers, what do you have?

Derry City 5 - 1 Gretna.

Come on now, one game not a summer makes. I could point to Celtic beating the giants of Europe, does that mean they are better than them? Of course not!