"Irish franchise for Premier League?" [Mod Note: See Post #1]

Blured

loyatemu wrote: »

I don't agree it would be an automatic failure. I think the Leinster example is relevant - 15 years ago "Leinster Rugby" didn't exist in its current form, relatively small crowds went to watch club rugby but large numbers of people still showed up for international games - pretty much the same situation you have today with domestic soccer.

Leinster have built a following and a brand and have become very successful. The main difference with soccer is that you already have a lot of supporters following English teams and a general antagonism between fans of the local scene and the big match\barstool brigade.

Smaller domestic leagues are dying financially (look at whats happening in the LOI and SPL this year), I think some form of consolidation is needed. Its probably more likely to be amalgamation of smaller leagues though, rather than the likes of the EPL taking on extra members. UEFA will eventually have to allow some loosening of national boundaries or else in a few years the big 5 leagues will be only ones still viable.

I disagree with your first point above - there is a major difference between what is being proposed here and what happened with the Provinces in Rugby back in 1995. The game of Rugby changed completely from amateur to professional and the IRFU looked at where the money was and decided that competing on an a European stage would be the best option rather than trying to build up a professional domestic league.

The domestic league in Ireland has suffered massively as a result. Clubs are kept going by hard working volunteers and attendances are way down. Only now are they starting to see the benefits of the provincial system with the successes of Leinster and Munster helping grow Rugby in Ireland over the few years - with more youngsters starting to take up the game and returning to the clubs.

So-pointing to the provinces in Rugby and saying that it might work isnt true. Soccer has been professional for an awful long time. People have been watching the Premier League on Sky since 1992 and attending LOI game for their whole lives. People being asked to give that up and support a new professional team is a big ask IMO

Iago

Walsh wrote: »

Thousands of people go over every week? What planes are these people getting, theres usually two flights in and two flights out on the day of the match within the time it takes to get to the ground and all that business, i think most people like the warmth of the couch or the pub to watch it.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/premiership/irish-love-affair-with-the-premier-league-14547161.html

This article reckons it's about 12,000 a week between here and the North. I'd say that's not too far off the truth.

drkpower

Leejo wrote: »

You don't follow a team but you follow a league? The mind boggles. Do you follow any other countries football leagues? Genuine question because all your posts on here seem to be very much against your own domestic league.

I am interested and entertained by the EPL, a bit of La Liga, Heineken/Magners rugby, a little bit of (US) NFL, the odd title fight, a bit of Olympic athletics, GAA etc etc...

I dont know why your mind boggles at the fact that I have an interest in and 'follow' (in thje sense that I watch it) many sports. My mind boggles when people from Carlow are die-hard Villa fans....

It is not that I am against our domestic league. It is just that it is not working. And its not as if its a new product trying to find its feet. Ive gone to the (very odd) game over the years, particularly in Tolka - I didnt like it; the quality was poor.

If there was any evidence, though, that the LoI was oin the brink of flourishing, and that bringing in Dublin FC to the PL would stop that, I would agree with you. But that is not going to happen. Given that a EPL is probably on the horizon over the next couple of decades, I think we should get in now rather than miss that boat later.

GlasnevinRed

Aside from the fact that it would effectively kill off football in this country, how would they even manage it??

Just one year suddenly decide to place this franchise in the top division. Yeah I can't see any English clubs complaining about that.:rolleyes:

It wouldn't work anyway. Irish people are too lazy to get off their arses now so I don't see why this would make it any different.

SligoBrewer

Iago wrote: »

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/premiership/irish-love-affair-with-the-premier-league-14547161.html

This article reckons it's about 12,000 a week between here and the North. I'd say that's not too far off the truth.

Shamrock Rovers would get half that on their own ffs.

Fratton Fred

This whole idea is stupid and is driven by nothing more than money. The club chairmen just want to get control of as much TV money as they can. What happens if a Scottish or Irish team get relegated, are the Football league supposed to accept them, or will they go back to their own league, who probablywon't be all that pleased to see them.

if it goes ahead, i can't wait to see the scumbags from Celtic who decided to sing rebel songs during the two minutes silence on Sunday trying that stunt at Stamford Bridge.

Stupid stupid stupid idea.

pablomakaveli

I think this is a ridiculous idea. Assuming such a team came into existence it would more than likely be located in Dublin. Being in Cork that team would be too far away for me to support regularly. The same could be said for people in Galway,Limerick or anywhere outside of Leinster really.

I'd have to travel up to Dublin for home games and over to England for away games. Which isn't viable.

But regardless of that i'd hate this team anyway.

I don't think we should abandon the LOI just yet as Shamrock rovers success this year has shown there is hope for clubs in Ireland. The main factor in LOI clubs failing the last few seasons has been useless chairmen. We get rid of these gombeens and give the club to the fans and things might improve.

Also i don't like EPL fans saying we should get rid of the LOI because they believe it's not up to there standards. It's insulting. I'm sure they'd be up in arms if a La Liga supporter told them the EPL should be scrapped.

_blank_

Dub13 wrote: »

I think the way forward for the LOI clubs is a mixed league with Welsh,Northern Irish & Scottish teams.

Are you going to pay for my travel every second week?

No?

Thought not.

No offence Dub, but that is one of the most ridiculous and ill-thought-out points I've ever seen from you.

You are talking about screwing over actual people who do go to every game their club plays. Something that no EPL fan posting on here can claim to do.

In fact, I'd wager that the cost of flying to Britain on a regular basis, to not only one city, but various places, is the main reason for that. It would be cost-prohibitive for any person living in Ireland to make a weekly trip to the mainland to follow their team. How many Liverpool away games have you ever been to, for instance? Is the majority of your spending not to home games? Could you afford an away game twice a month? Could anyone?

The A-League in Australia is one personal example I'll give here. That country is huge, and as a result, there is very, very little away support at matches. I know, I've been to quarter full stadiums with a decent home crowd behind the goal, but no-one else in the stadiums.

No thanks.

Dub13 wrote: »

All these leagues are in bad shape and need something new and innovative to get them going.

Yes they are.

but a merged competition is not the answer.

Look at the setanta cup, started off decent, but now no-one is interested.

Dub13 wrote: »

The PL does not need this a Irish club.

I agree.

antomorro-sei

Was English football not on its last legs before Sky pumped in millions? Genuine question... I ain't too sure.


I'm fully certain that if someone was to pump money into our league, modernise ALL stadia, enforce strict budgetry control and financial management (make teams develop youth systems and introduce a Academy at each club) and launch a professional marketing and advertising campaign, then the LOI would prosper.

I'd much rather doing that ^ than letting some poxy Franchise team in Dublin play in the EPL. Seriously, if you need there to be a Dublin based team just to go and watch foodball here, your not a football fan.


And btw, for anyone who thinks Scottish league is great, take out Celtc and Rangers, and see what your left with. Its about the same level as LOI, with slightly higher attendances.

Dub13

Des wrote: »

Are you going to pay for my travel every second week?

No?

Thought not.

No offence Dub, but that is one of the most ridiculous and ill-thought-out points I've ever seen from you.

You are talking about screwing over actual people who do go to every game their club plays. Something that no EPL fan posting on here can claim to do.

In fact, I'd wager that the cost of flying to Britain on a regular basis, to not only one city, but various places, is the main reason for that. It would be cost-prohibitive for any person living in Ireland to make a weekly trip to the mainland to follow their team. How many Liverpool away games have you ever been to, for instance? Is the majority of your spending not to home games? Could you afford an away game twice a month? Could anyone?

The A-League in Australia is one personal example I'll give here. That country is huge, and as a result, there is very, very little away support at matches. I know, I've been to quarter full stadiums with a decent home crowd behind the goal, but no-one else in the stadiums.

No thanks.


Yes they are.

but a merged competition is not the answer.

Look at the setanta cup, started off decent, but now no-one is interested.



I agree.

Des as you know I am no expert on Irish football so my posts on this should right of the bat be seen in this context,I am by no means in touch with the workings of the Irish leauge.

Most people who go to games know that the away fans matter little (expect when its the likes of Bohs,Celtic,Rangers keeping other clubs ticking over with there traveling fans).So your main body of argument is the fact that away fans will be screwed over would not stop this in the unlikely event that this idea was going to come to fruition,if the home nations (excluding england of course,as they don't need this) taught this idea was a runner and the TV company's agreed it would go ahead a small detail about a few hundred traveling fans would not stop it.

I agree Des I have not taught this one out much as it does not effice me,but as I said football on these two Island's with one notable exception is on life support and need new innovative ideas to turn the corner.Whats the population of Ireland north & south,Scotland and Wales I would think its around the 10 million mark,is that enough to sustain 2 professional league's and two semi pro league's.

Fratton Fred

antomorro-sei wrote: »

Was English football not on its last legs before Sky pumped in millions? Genuine question... I ain't too sure.


I'm fully certain that if someone was to pump money into our league, modernise ALL stadia, enforce strict budgetry control and financial management (make teams develop youth systems and introduce a Academy at each club) and launch a professional marketing and advertising campaign, then the LOI would prosper.

I'd much rather doing that ^ than letting some poxy Franchise team in Dublin play in the EPL. Seriously, if you need there to be a Dublin based team just to go and watch foodball here, your not a football fan.


And btw, for anyone who thinks Scottish league is great, take out Celtc and Rangers, and see what your left with. Its about the same level as LOI, with slightly higher attendances.

It's chicken and egg though. There has always been international interest in English football and English teams did have a fair amount of success before Sky came along, it's just that anything pre premier League days seems to be ignored (I'll stop now other wise the Liverpool fans will start going on about their european glory years:D)

Buying the TV rights was a relatively safe bet, whereas Irish football just does not have the same appeal on a Global basis. OK, pump in billions, build loads of shiney Ikea style stadia and buy all the top players would give it international appeal, just as it would if the same thing happened in Dubai, Japan or the US.

I don't see what the difference is between that and an Irish team joining the EPL though, all the teams would still be franchises playing in 40,000 capacity stadiums watched by 10,000 people. it would be awful.

DazMarz

Aside from being a stupid bloody idea, I believe that the key obstacle in this is that it would have to attract fans to it.

I would never, and I do mean never, abandon Chelsea for any other team, even if they set up shop just down the road from me. I go over to London as often as is physically (and financially!) possible, but I also take in the odd away game too (Sunderland, Liverpool, Villa). The main reason I cannot go to EVERY Chelsea game is purely the cost of it. If it was cheaper... I'd be gone to every game! I prefer games in London simply for the reason that transport there is childishly simple and handy, but away games have the added bonus of being the more hardcore fans...

This proposal for an Irish PL team would run into this, and I believe that this would be its biggest problem; where are the 20,000 fans to fill the ground every home game going to come from? Most fans like myself would never even dream of abandoning the club we've supported for years to support another club.

The team would also need some serious financial backing in order to buy players to compete at such a top level. And even then, simply by throwing money around is no guarantee that players would WANT to go to the club (Kaka and Man City anyone?).

The only way I could see this being done at all is doing the NFL thing on it; taking an existing team from England and re-locating them to Ireland. And even then, it would cause utter uproar from the English fans, would necessitate building a new stadium and training ground/facilities and obviously could not be one of the bigger English clubs, so the fanbase in Ireland anyway would be fairly small.

I do not believe that this idea would work, in any way. It would be financially ruinous on whomever the backer was, would create frothing rage amongst the fans left behind in England and would in all likelihood go down quicker than a lead balloon...

Iago

Premier League Vote No to Old firm Entry

http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2009/1112/premierleague1.html

_blank_

Iago wrote: »

Premier League Vote No to Old firm Entry

http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2009/1112/premierleague1.html

Yay

drkpower

DazMarz wrote: »

This proposal for an Irish PL team would run into this, and I believe that this would be its biggest problem; where are the 20,000 fans to fill the ground every home game going to come from?

Where did Chelsea's (or any pther club's) fans come from when they were originally set up? It may take time; but it will happen.

Anyone who thinks that a Premier League team playing in Dublin 'wouldn't work' is deluded. It's not rocket science. Sport is business, ultimately. Supply a good product with easy access and it will be succesful.

The interest in top-tier football here is massive. Affiliation with a team by Irish youth is mainly by chance. A Dublin PL club would pick up a substantial number of today's 5-12 year olds and the novelty of the PL would fill the stadium until these guys develop into hardcore supporters.

antomorro-sei

Fratton Fred wrote: »

It's chicken and egg though. There has always been international interest in English football and English teams did have a fair amount of success before Sky came along, it's just that anything pre premier League days seems to be ignored (I'll stop now other wise the Liverpool fans will start going on about their european glory years:D)

Buying the TV rights was a relatively safe bet, whereas Irish football just does not have the same appeal on a Global basis. OK, pump in billions, build loads of shiney Ikea style stadia and buy all the top players would give it international appeal, just as it would if the same thing happened in Dubai, Japan or the US.

I don't see what the difference is between that and an Irish team joining the EPL though, all the teams would still be franchises playing in 40,000 capacity stadiums watched by 10,000 people. it would be awful.

Oh, I don't mean build huge 40,000 all seater stadia. But something like Turner's X, Tallaght Stadium and even AFC Bournemouth have a 9,000 all seater. There's plenty of small modern all seater stadiums about the place.

I think a modern, all seater stadium* with high spec facilities would attract fans.

Atmosphere's important too, which, you wouldn't have at an Irish franchise EPL club.






*well, maybe a terrace at one end :P

Kenteach

For starters, I'm sure Phil Gartside would be amazed as anyone that anything he said has generated such a debate.
My own opinion is that it would not work. All sport is inherently parochial. Parachuting in a team would not attract anything other than the aformentioned event junkies, who would shortly move on to the 'next big thing'. The comparison with rugby neglects to point out that they are centrally funded (something the FAI would not be able to do) and based on the provinces, thats where the core support come from, they've always been there with their clubs and now they are following the province.
Where are the fans supposed to come from? The LoI debate is irrelevant, as their fans either don't support anyone in the EPL or already have an attachment with an existing team in the EPL. If someone already follows a team, are they expected to switch due to geography? If that was the case why follow a foreign team at all?

And finally, on the entertainment argument. Does that give us the right to stop supporting Ireland and start following Brazil?

major bill

Iago wrote: »

Premier League Vote No to Old firm Entry

http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2009/1112/premierleague1.html

great decision imo. The old firm has to much political baggage around them for english football, the english game doesnt need it.

Kenteach

major bill wrote: »

great decision imo. The old firm has to much political baggage around them for english football, the english game doesnt need it.

Maybe a lot of that political baggage is because they only really have to play against each other? Just a thought.

major bill

Kenteach wrote: »

Maybe a lot of that political baggage is because they only really have to play against each other? Just a thought.

The same bigoted screams from the terrace are there when they play the english sides also!!!!

DSB

I've plenty of friends who support Premiership teams, but I honestly cannot imagine meeting someone who would support an idea like this, and liking them. This isn't a barstooler rant, I'm sure EPL fans have a strong love for that club, and would never dream of changing, but I cannot understand anyone suddenly deciding to support this, or even want this to exist.

It is a horrible idea, it gos against everything football support has always been about, and it is pure fake. This isn't even the sort of thing that should be up for rational debate, its pretty much a closed issue, people who are opposed to this are correct, and people who support it are wrong. Cue someone telling me how its all about opinion, that person is not a football fan.

civis_liberalis

apoch632 wrote: »

Was reading through the annual Celtic and Rangers to the Premiership stories

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/eng_prem/8353937.stm

Noticed this in there.

"The Bolton chairman is also believed to be open to inviting an Irish franchise into the league in the future. "

It doesn't say that anywhere?

dreamers75

civis_liberalis wrote: »

It doesn't say that anywhere?

He meant Celtic duh!

drkpower

DSB wrote: »

I've plenty of friends who support Premiership teams, but I honestly cannot imagine meeting someone who would support an idea like this, and liking them. This isn't a barstooler rant, I'm sure EPL fans have a strong love for that club, and would never dream of changing, but I cannot understand anyone suddenly deciding to support this, or even want this to exist.

It is a horrible idea, it gos against everything football support has always been about, and it is pure fake. This isn't even the sort of thing that should be up for rational debate, its pretty much a closed issue, people who are opposed to this are correct, and people who support it are wrong. Cue someone telling me how its all about opinion, that person is not a football fan.

It wouldnt necessarily require people to switch allegiances to Dublin FC from Villa or Bolton etc.. There is no reason why kids, when they are 7-12 or so and are 'choosing'a team, wouldnt support Dublin FC. In the interim the novelty value of a Dublin team and the many people, like myself, (who feel no affiliation to Portsmouth or Hull), will be interested in attending these games with their kids, and that support should keep Dublin FC in good support until the grassroot support develops.

Even the best supported teams have to begin somewhere. And I would prefer my kids supporting Dublin FC than Wolverhampton Wanderers. That, to me, is pure fake.

DSB

drkpower wrote: »

It wouldnt necessarily require people to switch allegiances to Dublin FC from Villa or Bolton etc.. There is no reason why kids, when they are 7-12 or so and are 'choosing'a team, wouldnt support Dublin FC. In the interim the novelty value of a Dublin team and the many people, like myself, (who feel no affiliation to Portsmouth or Hull), will be interested in attending these games with their kids, and that support should keep Dublin FC in good support until the grassroot support develops.

Even the best supported teams have to begin somewhere. And I would prefer my kids supporting Dublin FC than Wolverhampton Wanderers. That, to me, is pure fake.

If you want your kids to support an Irish team, that option is there. If you want your kids to support a Premiership team, that option is there too. But those options should not be mixed. It gos against everything football stands for.

drkpower

DSB wrote: »

If you want your kids to support an Irish team, that option is there. If you want your kids to support a Premiership team, that option is there too. But those options should not be mixed. It gos against everything football stands for.

What?
No, it doesnt!

If my kids want to support Shels, good for 'em but kids, like everyone else, want to support the best quality football. In our sphere of influence, thats the PL. And Id prefer them supporting a Dublin team in the PL than supporting Wolves.

If they can support Leinster in the Magners and Heineken, why cant they support Dublin FC in the (British & Irish) PL?

You will have to do better than 'it goes against everything football stands for'....:D

DSB

drkpower wrote: »

What?
No, it doesnt!

If my kids want to support Shels, good for 'em but kids, like everyone else, want to support the best quality football. In our sphere of influence, thats the PL. And Id prefer them supporting a Dublin team in the PL than supporting Wolves.

If they can support Leinster in the Magners and Heineken, why cant they support Dublin FC in the (British & Irish) PL?

You will have to do better than 'it goes against everything football stands for'....:D

Football and rugby are such different things, while you have every Tom, Dick and Harry on here claiming otherwise, rugby teams just aren't as passionately supported as football teams. Just because rugby has diluted itself to make a few bucks, does not mean that football should soil nearly years and years of beautiful history, to franchise out and please individuals who really wouldn't know what it was like to actually support a football team like yourself.

Johnny Utah

I said it before, but imo it's only a matter of time until the biggest teams in Europe form a Superleague, with a number of divisions. So, if that does indeed happen, then it's not inconceivable that we will have a team from Dublin represented.

drkpower

DSB wrote: »

Football and rugby are such different things, while you have every Tom, Dick and Harry on here claiming otherwise, rugby teams just aren't as passionately supported as football teams. Just because rugby has diluted itself to make a few bucks, does not mean that football should soil nearly years and years of beautiful history, to franchise out and please individuals who really wouldn't know what it was like to actually support a football team like yourself.

Give me a break!:D

"rugby teams just aren't as passionately supported as football teams"; What are you talking about...?!! Do you have a table of 'most paasionately supported sports'? And what relevance is it to this debate?

Try and actually address the issue rather than making generic points about the extraordinary pasion you supposedly have for football. And try not to be clouded by your obvious emotion on this issue, you will come to a more sober conclusion....;)

And forgive me if I dont take lectures in 'support' from those who 'follow' teams from various areas in the UK merely by virtue of who was poplular in 1985 or who their big brother supported....! I'll take the passion of a Leinster or Munster supporter over that any day.

drkpower

Johnny Utah wrote: »

I said it before, but imo it's only a matter of time until the biggest teams in Europe form a Superleague, with a number of divisions. So, if that does indeed happen, then it's not inconceivable that we will have a team from Dublin represented.

No doubt that will happen with time. If Dublin FC and/or Cork FC are already in an expanded UK & Irl PL, we will be in a far better position to be involved.