Ireland - the future of the economy

Daithinski

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Iwhile we learn useless subjects like Irish,

Poor Irish getting beaten up again...:(

Just because you weren't intelligent enough to learn how to speak it properly doesn't make it useless. :P

Lets all learn c++ instead and speak in binary code and live in a gumdrop house in lollipop lane.

Dannyboy83

Daithinski wrote: »

Poor Irish getting beaten up again...:(

Just because you weren't intelligent enough to learn how to speak it properly doesn't make it useless. :P

Lets all learn c++ instead and speak in binary code and live in a gumdrop house in lollipop lane.

I used to think Irish was useless.
Having dated foreign women exclusively for the last 7 or 8 years and visiting their countries, I'm not so sure I would consign it to the dustbin so quickly anymore.
On the other hand, the way its taught in schools renders it "virtually useless".

It should be a minor subject, like religion or something.
There shouldn't be tests in it.
And they should make it fun time for students, use sweets and music for primary school kids for example.
All of the kids I went to school with dreaded the language, almost entirely down to the fact that the teachers were borderline fascists. You cannot expect children to speak Irish (or any language) fluently when they're parents do not speak it, and they only hear it spoken in school.

How the hell did they manage to learn Hebrew in one generation in Israel, thats what confuses me. We must be doing something very wrong indeed.


As an aside, its funny you should mention C++, one of the lads in my class in secondary was from Pakistan, don't ask me how their education system works, but he had some schooling in the computers and he used to study programming while we did Irish.
He emigrated to London when we all graduated from college and he got the best paid job by far, so I wouldn't consign that to the bin either.

Sorry back on topic.

Dannyboy83

Darragh29 wrote: »

Here's the biggest problem we have in Ireland now Jimmmy... Our government doesn't understand that every company you have referred to above, started off as a small business operation.

This government do not understand a single thing about how jobs are actually created. It's like watching some big wealthy pr*ck walking into a poker casino and throwing money at the pot, he doesn't know how to play cards, but he walks into the casino, strolls up to the most expensive table in the place and starts throwing his Daddy's money at the pot and everyone thinks he's the big man.

The smart money however would be on the little guy minding his own business at the smaller table who is slowly buy steadily building up his chips.

The only way this government think that jobs can be created are through the IDA, who travel abroad and try to spend a lot of money convincing big multinational businesses to locate in Ireland. This is grand, but some of the big businesses that were convinced to come here, for example Dell, have decided to leave at the first opportunity.

A wiser strategic decision would have been to not just "up-skill" the Irish workforce when the resources were there to do so, but also "up-entrepreneur" the workforce, so that the people of this country, who are highly educated but seem to lack the self belief that is needed for starting up a business, could have been given the support and assistance that is needed to create small businesses in Ireland. Instead though, we've been throwing money at the pot, creating jobs the easy way, by paying someone else to do the heavy lifting for us...

And as you can see here, we've reaped exactly what we've sown... Now we have the big businesses fleeing our shores, we are all looking around going, "hang on a minute, WHERE ARE OUR JOBS????"...

Our jobs are here and under our noses, all we have to do is discover them... When the required leadership arrives in leinster House, then we'll see jobs being created. And for the avoidance of doubt, I think we are many years away from this happening, FF, FG, Labour, they are all completely and utterly clueless when it comes to job creation.

Excellent post, and the fact that Michael O'Leary has stuck by Ireland as long as he has lends further credence to your point.

Irish people will stay loyal to Ireland as long as its financially possible to do so.

One other thing, having worked for a German, then an American company, I now work for an Irish company.
There is no way to convey in words the utter relief at escaping the corporate bull**** you have to suffer in foreign (American in particular) companies.

There is a lot to be said for plain old common sense.

irish_bob

leninbenjamin wrote: »

this is the most important thing that can be said about our current situation, yet for all the bickering between factions over limiting the damage the obvious bloody things get ignored.

I see three main things that I want to see us do:

1) lower the cost of living in this country through current expenditure cuts. Decreasing public sector pay is actually bad for the private sector too because it decreases the disposable income in the economy, yet it has to be done simply because we can't sustain current levels at all.

2) bring back University fees. Put the rest of the savings into R&D and performance related scholarships. Specifically i'd like to see a 1 for 1 program introduced whereby our government would match any investment in 3rd level institutions in this country by businesses.

3) prioritise capital spending. good infrastructure saves money for the private industry and generally makes for a more attractive investment. It also puts more money into the economy than current expenditure imo (current expenditure tends to go out very fast through imports, capital at least tends to create additional jobs that will still filter the money around). It will also create jobs temporarily, revealing pressure on the welfare and retraining services.

excellent post

we hear the unions bang on about how cutting public sector pay will mean less money spent in the economy and this will hurt retailers etc , i would argue that not cutting public sector pay means tax payers who might have spent more in shops etc , will instead have to divert more towards the revenue commisioners

dresden8

Daithinski wrote: »

Poor Irish getting beaten up again...:(

Just because you weren't intelligent enough to learn how to speak it properly doesn't make it useless. :P

Lets all learn c++ instead and speak in binary code and live in a gumdrop house in lollipop lane.

+1000111100011100000111100010101010111100011111

dresden8

irish_bob wrote: »

excellent post

we hear the unions bang on about how cutting public sector pay will mean less money spent in the economy and this will hurt retailers etc , i would argue that not cutting public sector pay means tax payers who might have spent more in shops etc , will instead have to divert more towards the revenue commisioners

Errr.....

Coming public sector paycuts will not mean tax-cuts.

Retailers are fncked. After paycuts they will be more fncked. Next year when another 4 billion will be taken out of the economy they will be more fncked.

That's what a structural deficit means in real terms.

Everybody's fncked. The country's fncked.

NewDubliner

irish_bob wrote: »

we hear the unions bang on about how cutting public sector pay will mean less money spent in the economy and this will hurt retailers etc , i would argue that not cutting public sector pay means tax payers who might have spent more in shops etc , will instead have to divert more towards the revenue commisioners

So, if the public sector gets a pay cut for Christmas and threats of more cuts to come.......the private sector workers & welfare recipients will, in gratitude to the government, start spending their money South of the border?:rolleyes:

OK, good luck with that.

Dannyboy83

dresden8 wrote: »

Errr.....

Coming public sector paycuts will not mean tax-cuts.

Retailers are fncked. After paycuts they will be more fncked. Next year when another 4 billion will be taken out of the economy they will be more fncked.

That's what a structural deficit means in real terms.

Everybody's fncked. The country's fncked.

There is an excellent post here by NESF:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=62990466&postcount=22


In a nutshell, Short term pain, long term gain.

NewDubliner

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

There is an excellent post here by NESF:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=62990466&postcount=22 In a nutshell, Short term pain, long term gain.

Spoken like a true bank executive.

No mention at all of the money being given to the banks (pilfered from the the OAP fund), nor the interest being paid on yet more bail-out for the banks and their executives, nor the the cost of the artificial support for the commercial property market, nor money funding government vanity schemes or tax breaks for the rich (why not just cut them?).

Same message all the time - "there's no other option but to cut worker's pay".

dresden8

NewDubliner wrote: »

Spoken like a true bank executive.

No mention at all of the money being given to the banks (pilfered from the the OAP fund), nor the interest being paid on yet more bail-out for the banks and their executives, nor the the cost of the artificial support for the commercial property market, nor money funding government vanity schemes or tax breaks for the rich (why not just cut them?).

Same message all the time - "there's no other option but to cut worker's pay".

And no matter what you do, don't ask the rich to contribute more, they won't like it.

They're easily perturbed. The poor dears, stuck with huge houses and private schools and accountants cost, the poor don't appreciate their problems with running three houses, a la padraig Flynn.

I thought that sh1t was blown through. Apparently I thought wrong.

Our lords and masters must not be disturbed, lest they move their lucrative asses abroad.

Who abroad would give these corrupt incompetent idiots the same money they get here? I don't see the bundesbank lining up to recruit Fingers, Seanieand Neary.

Ah well, their loss.

nesf

NewDubliner wrote: »

Spoken like a true bank executive.

Same message all the time: "I don't understand anything about what's going on but hey, let's call everyone bankers if they disagree with me because that's like an insult or something"

segaBOY

NewDubliner wrote: »

tax breaks for the rich (why not just cut them?).

I'm actually among the lower paid so I don't pay much income tax. However who exactly are the "rich"? The ones who pay 80% of all income tax? Those who run businesses creating wealth and employment in the economy? The best and brightest who aim high and add to our economy?

Of course you have the cinderella cases (the tax exiles). They are a small minority and I agree it should be tightened up. There has also been various reliefs which have helped spur on building and are being reformed.

But, if you tax rest of "the rich" to excess they decide not to run these businesses anymore, our up and coming best and brightest go elsewhere for work. Thus less employment for the worker and less wealth knocking around Ireland which leads to a continued downward spiral.

Source: The 1980s

book smarts

We need an army of high-tech nerds. The first step to this is a propaganda campaign in schools and the media.

ei.sdraob

Daithinski wrote: »

Poor Irish getting beaten up again...:(

Just because you weren't intelligent enough to learn how to speak it properly doesn't make it useless. :P

Lets all learn c++ instead and speak in binary code and live in a gumdrop house in lollipop lane.

thats right hurl abuse at the poster (me)

while not addressing the post/point made


learning c/c++ gives on a huge advantage as its very easy to pick up other languages from there such as php, java and c# and others

spoken from personal experience of knowing and using daily all of the above (and allowing me to setup a company and make money)

also learning basic concepts of programing like loop, ifelse, debugging is hugely valuable skill that makes money

and yes they way Irish is taught here is a joke, someone brought up an example of Hewbrew earlier, heres another example all them kids who come here without knowing English after a year in school talk and act like the local kids, yes a year

i know people that after a dozen years still dont know Irish


you have companies coming to Ireland giving jobs to people with other european languages (paypal 2 weeks ago for example) but never Irish

Irish should be made optional in schools not compulsory

and get rid of them stupid Religion classes, what the **** story with that, getting the kids "hooked" early in their mumbo jumbo

irish_bob

dresden8 wrote: »

Errr.....

Coming public sector paycuts will not mean tax-cuts.

Retailers are fncked. After paycuts they will be more fncked. Next year when another 4 billion will be taken out of the economy they will be more fncked.

That's what a structural deficit means in real terms.

Everybody's fncked. The country's fncked.

not the point i was making , what i was saying is that if public sector pay is not cut , this will leave the goverment with no option but to raise taxes which will in turn result in tax payers spending less as they need to set aside more for thier increased tax liability

DJDC

Forgetting about the long term for now, we could solve a lot of our immediate problems if we carried out the following in Dec Budget:

Cost Side:

1) Cut 10% of PS wage bill on average, (sliding scale etc.)
2) Cut JA by 10%
3) Cut Rent Allowance by 10%
4) Cut Childrens Allowance for everyone above €100,000, sliding scale reductions for everyone else.
5) Cut minimum wage by 5%.

Revenue Side:

1) Introduce property taxes just like in every country.
2) Cut tax break schemes aimed at the construction industry (Section23 etc.)
3) Widen tax net. A ridicilous situation has developed where huge swathes of worker pay no income tax in this country. Need to follow German model and have everyone paying on a sliding scale from 10% upwards.

Carrying out these simple measures could easily save the country over €5bn in an efficient manner and would take the country from a state utterly reliant on construction to a leaner fitter country better equipped for the future. In Dec 2010 further cuts could be made to the PS wage bill to bring us in line with other EU countries. Realistically, the Irish PS wage bill needs to be cut 20% but that should not be done in Dec but over a 2 year timescale.

However the real cause of this crisis and the one in the 80s and 50s is our political system, a parish pump system dominated by one party utterly ill equipped to drive the country forward into a modern state. The number of TD's need to be cut and at a local level, the number of count councils needs to be cut. Nepotism and brown envelopes must be taken out of the political system.

Daithinski

ei.sdraob wrote: »

thats right hurl abuse at the poster (me)

while not addressing the post/point made

Hurling abuse? Thats a tad dramatic. Sorry I didn't mean to hurt your feelings.

ei.sdraob wrote: »

learning c/c++ gives on a huge advantage as its very easy to pick up other languages from there such as php, java and c# and others

Learning Irish gives me a huge advantage very easy to pick up other languages from there such as German and French.

C+ is not so difficult that you have to start learning it when you a a young child. Maybe they teach it in those other countries early because a majority don't go on to second or third level education?

ei.sdraob wrote: »

i know people that after a dozen years still dont know Irish

Seriously, its not that hard!! Some people just don't have a talent/the intelligence for languages.

ei.sdraob wrote: »

and get rid of them stupid Religion classes, what the **** story with that, getting the kids "hooked" early in their mumbo jumbo

Again with the drama, I don't know a single person that even goes to mass anymore, we all had compulsory religion classes. Theres not exactly much evidence of people getting "hooked".

You seem to want the irish secondary school system to be a vocational/training school for computer geeks. A countries economy needs more than a bunch of programmers and IT specialists.

Our problem is that we are too expensive to do business in on a global level. Not that we don't have a good education system.

Tinkering about with primary and secondary school subjects is not going to solve anything.

rugbyman

just jumped on here.

listening to Marian Finucane

lady called Suzanne kelly talking a whole lot of sense.

Rugbyman

ParkRunner

DJDC wrote: »

Forgetting about the long term for now, we could solve a lot of our immediate problems if we carried out the following in Dec Budget:

Cost Side:

1) Cut 10% of PS wage bill on average, (sliding scale etc.)
2) Cut JA by 10%
3) Cut Rent Allowance by 10%
4) Cut Childrens Allowance for everyone above €100,000, sliding scale reductions for everyone else.
5) Cut minimum wage by 5%.

Revenue Side:

1) Introduce property taxes just like in every country.
2) Cut tax break schemes aimed at the construction industry (Section23 etc.)
3) Widen tax net. A ridicilous situation has developed where huge swathes of worker pay no income tax in this country. Need to follow German model and have everyone paying on a sliding scale from 10% upwards.

Carrying out these simple measures could easily save the country over €5bn in an efficient manner and would take the country from a state utterly reliant on construction to a leaner fitter country better equipped for the future. In Dec 2010 further cuts could be made to the PS wage bill to bring us in line with other EU countries. Realistically, the Irish PS wage bill needs to be cut 20% but that should not be done in Dec but over a 2 year timescale.

However the real cause of this crisis and the one in the 80s and 50s is our political system, a parish pump system dominated by one party utterly ill equipped to drive the country forward into a modern state. The number of TD's need to be cut and at a local level, the number of count councils needs to be cut. Nepotism and brown envelopes must be taken out of the political system.

I cant disagree with anything here! My only worry come January 2010 is will anyone in this country have money to spend in this economy. I see a real danger of the black economy and dodgy money lenders thriving. Already we have seen that Irish people are happy to flood across the border in their own but not the nations best interests

Daithinski

EF wrote: »

Already we have seen that Irish people are happy to flood across the border in their own but not the nations personal interests

The irish public are simply mimicking the behaviour of the public figures and captains of industry of this country and putting themselves first.

In times like these good examples need to be set and they just aren't.

When the government start putting National interest first then maybe the public will too.

Darragh29

DJDC wrote: »

3) Widen tax net. A ridicilous situation has developed where huge swathes of worker pay no income tax in this country. Need to follow German model and have everyone paying on a sliding scale from 10% upwards.

+1, this goes back to buying the last two elections... If you use services provided by the state, then I'd argue that you must pay income tax to contribute towards the provision of those services, even if you use your local library, then you should be making some contribution from your income to contribute, even if its just a tenner a week, NOBODY should be exempt from income tax.

This was part of Bertie's tactic to get the lower paid people to vote for FF and now the chickens have well and truly come home to roost on this one...