Officially Dublin has the highest rate of gun murder in Europe in 2009

Manic Moran

m@cc@ wrote: »

I'm just saying it would be better to focus attention on breaking up these gangs rather than trying to go to toe-to-toe with them. If the police were to start carrying weapons, you're just escalating the problem.

I agree and disagree with you at the same time.

I will agree that the focus should be on criminal investigation and gang disruption/destruction as opposed to simply relying on them to make a mistake and get shot by the constabulary.

However, I disagree that there will be an escalation should the Gardai be armed. There's already an arms race, that's gang vs gang. They don't care if the Gardai are armed or not, and have the bestest bad-assed weapons they can get their hands on already. The only consideration for arming gardai should be for the defence of the individual garda, not for any possible useage in shooting gangsters. If Gardai do not need to be armed for their defence, then let them remain unarmed no matter what the gangsters do.

NTM

Snowie

Palmerstown_guy wrote: »

You also have to ask, how the bleedin' hell the drugs get into the country in the first place?

Ireland must be the easiest country to smuggle drugs into.

How are they doing it? ....

well we have like two trawlers and a rib or something as are navey and most of the time one of them is away on diplomatic missions :rolleyes:.


so eh the hole west coast is like the eassyist place to bring them in that and fisher men needing to make a couple a tho on one job alone. what you think its hard to stash a ac ouple of 100 kees of grass ? or coke ?
wake up .

back to the incompetency of our Garda.

its nothing to do with the gardas incompetenc, Its two do with more then likely not having the resccources to battle it. The fact that we have little 13 years olds walking around thinking there the green street elite beating up old ladys and taking there pensions. :rolleyes: taking up valuble garda time.

a-k-47

did someone say a-k-47.




pm if interested.

/ill get me coat (gun)

kowloon

Palmerstown_guy wrote: »

This is what pisses ME off. Why does it have to be a competion showing numbers? Nobody wins or learns anything from this.

When was the last time there was 19 murders in ANY city/town/village in Ireland in the last 50 years?

Bottom line, something needs to be done in IRELAND in our NATION ...NOW...about the drugs and scumbags who sell them!!!

29 killed in the Omagh bombings, no less murders than the others, and you would have a hard time persuadignme that RIRA don't constitute a gang.

Palmerstown_guy

19 dead in 10 months...must be easily the highest number of murders in 50 years. Someone needs to check.

More guns to the garda might help, at the moment a garda to these drug peddling scumbags is like a neighbour using bad language. Useless.

It's a joke, this city and its ballooning crime rate is a joke.

Someone wake up the government!!!

Manic Moran

Someone wake up the government!!!

It's OK, the government are on the case. They've pretty much banned people from going to the Gardai, getting vetted for suitability and storage requirements, and paying for a license to own a handgun.

That'll show those criminals...

NTM

yupyup7up

im delighted. ye can all stfu about Limerick now.

Palmerstown_guy

Jasus, don't be delighted, that's not the way to look at it.

Everyone in Ireland needs to pull together to put a stop to these lethal gangs, everyone.

....and please note not everyone from Dublin went as low as to try elevate and ridicule other parts of the country..that is just lazy journalism and un educated people. I don't know why they do that, its embaressing, but they are good guys up here too.

We are a small Island and drugs and murders affect ALL of us.

yupyup7up

Palmerstown_guy wrote: »

Jasus, don't be delighted, that's not the way to look at it.

Everyone in Ireland needs to pull together to put a stop to these lethal gangs, everyone.

....and please note not everyone from Dublin went as low as to try elevate and ridicule other parts of the country..that is just lazy journalism and un educated people. I don't know why they do that, its embaressing, but they are good guys up here too.

We are a small Island and drugs and murders affect ALL of us.

yeah you're right. just the C*nts in Dublin slaggin Limerick are far worse than anybody else in the country slaggin dublin!:D

Kipperhell

It is part of the fall out of the peace in the North. I said it when the likes of the IRA were disbanded that the government were being foolish about how it was handled. Effectively the illegal arms were being policed as they entered the country. By removing an ethos policing organised crime in Ireland it was certain that there would be the current outcome.

The supply chains were all in place for a replenishment of everything that was given up by the terrorists. There was never any talk of efforts to stop this supply. There are still people out there that could probably seriously damage supply chains who claimed they were fighting for Ireland. Time to step up and sort out the legacy left behind

Not a fan of the IRA by any means but the vacuum they left was always going to be filled.

Nodin

Nothing to do with the RA really. If you can get in a ton of heroin, theres no reason you can't pack a few handguns with it.

Palmerstown_guy

Remember it's only a small few uneducated Dubs that stoop that low.
Please don't paint us all with the one brush!

...regarding the RA being the reason why guns are in our city, hmmm...I'm not too sure of that.

Kipperhell

Nodin wrote: »

Nothing to do with the RA really. If you can get in a ton of heroin, theres no reason you can't pack a few handguns with it.

Guns are traditionally part of the shipment, the RA took the guns as part payment to permit dealing and other activities. Anybody got too big the Ra would sort them out. The dealers didn't have the big wars because the Ra would sort them both out.

They policed organised crime by being part of it and setting limits. Well established knowledge on how they generated money. They left a vacuum, effectively creating a power struggle within organised crime.

topper75

tommy249 wrote: »

So much crap is written and printed about Limerick cause its such an easy target and then people actually think that its a war zone when its nothing of the sorts.

Fair point there. I think the problem is the same for both places. Similar dramatic statistics were used against Limerick. Non-Limerickers need to know that until recently, the city boundary wasn't touched for decades. Huge suburbs were omitted from stats. The area considered to be 'Limerick', the centre, had an inordinate amount of LA housing (more prone to criminal activity let's face it) and this skewed stats. This was exploited by unscrupulous journalists to write all sorts of daft articles about Limerick's crime, violence, unmarried mothers - you name it.

With Dublin city - where does the boundary start and end? The crime is a problem in both towns, but these are silly headlines and don't help.

Palmerstown_guy

Hopefully those sad journalists have learned a thing or two and have improved their trade. Crime is all over Ireland, every village to every city.

Now with Dublin's 19 murders...they have 19 families, murder is murder.

We shouldn't let these scumbags run riot in our city,

...and remember stop sniffing coke in clubs and pubs for starters, hipsters - you're feeding the scumbags!

spoofilyj

humanji wrote: »

Go on ya good thing! Try and beat that "Peoples Republic of Cork"!

Caus thats something to be proud of! And why start that arguement again, its done to death, Dublin - Capital, big whoop.

Cork is a nice big town, there are little comparisons to be made.

topper75

Palmerstown_guy wrote: »

hipsters - you're feeding the scumbags!

Absolutely correct there.

Pdfile

a-k-47 wrote: »

did someone say a-k-47.




pm if interested.

/ill get me coat (gun)

i thought they all used colt 45's and other cheap weaponry :rolleyes:

ak-47 in ireland... you'd have to give your arm leg sister and left nut for one....

thats without bullets. :pac:

AckwelFoley

topper75 wrote: »

Fair point there. I think the problem is the same for both places. Similar dramatic statistics were used against Limerick. Non-Limerickers need to know that until recently, the city boundary wasn't touched for decades. Huge suburbs were omitted from stats. The area considered to be 'Limerick', the centre, had an inordinate amount of LA housing (more prone to criminal activity let's face it) and this skewed stats. This was exploited by unscrupulous journalists to write all sorts of daft articles about Limerick's crime, violence, unmarried mothers - you name it.

With Dublin city - where does the boundary start and end? The crime is a problem in both towns, but these are silly headlines and don't help.

Limerick is tiny in comparsion to dublin. AFAIK Talllaght is bigger than Limerick City.. Im not sure what point im trying to make, but you cant compare the two.

topper75

snyper wrote: »

AFAIK Talllaght is bigger than Limerick City.. Im not sure what point im trying to make

I'm clear what point I'm trying to make. You can fiddle with population statistics to whatever ends you want because urban areas in this country are not properly delineated.

e.g. Bray is part of the Dublin urban area, but not strictly part of Dublin, rather Co. Wicklow.
Parteen is part of the Limerick urban area, but not strictly part of Limerick, rather Co. Clare.

Manic Moran

i thought they all used colt 45's and other cheap weaponry

1911s are not the cheapest of firearms to buy, especially those by other manufacturers. (Check out the price of a Kimber or Para-Ordnance which are uprated versions of the same gun)

It's certainly cheaper to buy something like a Glock, or if you're going used, a cheap Smith and Wesson or some such.

NTM

Liam Byrne

snyper wrote: »

Limerick is tiny in comparsion to dublin. AFAIK Talllaght is bigger than Limerick City.. Im not sure what point im trying to make, but you cant compare the two.

The statistics are "per head of population", so ACTUAL sizes don't come into it.

The point topper75 was making is that statistics "per head of population" usually seem to take the population of an area as "the city", while the crime stats are usually for the "greater metropolitan area" or an equivalent.

Someone posted here earlier that the Limerick City population is 50,000; apart from the fact that it's something like 70,000, the city + suburbs are something like 125,000 because most of the suburbs are in Co. Limerick or Co. Clare.

So a shocking statistic - for either Dublin or Limerick - of, say "1 in 10 people affected by crime" can easily be halved by using the proper figures.

That said, actual shocking absolute figures like 19 murders doesn't come into that; it's still 19 people dead.

Although personally, in order to been objective and fair, I'd do the same as I asked people to do when the media made it look like Limerick was dangerous......how many of those 19 were "normal people" - non scumbag drug-gang members ?

Because - as I've been arguing in relation to my own fine city - they're the real victims and they're the ones who are representative of how "dangerous" a city really is to an average person.

One is still too many, but you need to know how safe you are if you come into a city to visit; not selling drugs or committing crimes.

citizen_p

nobody cares when the gangs are killing eachother. its only when a civilian joe soap is killed by them that somthing happens

El Weirdo

Palmerstown_guy wrote: »

...and remember stop sniffing coke in clubs and pubs for starters, hipsters - you're feeding the scumbags!

*calls Frank.

Nodin

Kipperhell wrote: »

Guns are traditionally part of the shipment, the RA took the guns as part payment to permit dealing and other activities. Anybody got too big the Ra would sort them out. The dealers didn't have the big wars because the Ra would sort them both out.

They policed organised crime by being part of it and setting limits. Well established knowledge on how they generated money. They left a vacuum, effectively creating a power struggle within organised crime.

In your dimension perhaps, not in this one.

Chucky the tree

dr.bollocko wrote: »

I never said guns.

I was referring to the OP.

patneve

Naples, Italy (population of 1 million people) and environs has had 59 gun deaths so far this year; 4,126 deaths since 1980...Dublin is paradise comparing it to where I'm from :cool:

Palmerstown_guy

Again, we are back to comparing numbers? Lets stay real what's happening in our city.

19 murders, they are telling me thats the highest number of murders in Dublin in the last 50 years. Scary feckin shiite.

Feck these scumbags for turning Dublin into a gangland.

All we need is another Veronica Guerin massacre to top it off.

AckwelFoley

Liam Byrne wrote: »

So a shocking statistic - for either Dublin or Limerick - of, say "1 in 10 people affected by crime" can easily be halved by using the proper figures.

That said, actual shocking absolute figures like 19 murders doesn't come into that; it's still 19 people dead.
...how many of those 19 were "normal people" - non scumbag drug-gang members
.

Very very few are "non scumbag" however that comes as little comfort to the families of Brian Fitzgerald, Shane Geoghegan and Roy Collins.

I dont believe Limerick has a higher % per capita of Skangers than any other town / city in Ireland, they are suprisingy few "major players" in the Limerick gangland culture, its their actions and the severity of their actions that make it look so bad.

Liam Byrne

snyper wrote: »

Very very few [clarification : of the victims] are "non scumbag" however that comes as little comfort to the families of Brian Fitzgerald, Shane Geoghegan and Roy Collins.

Agreed 100%. Don't get me wrong. I've said before that one innocent death is one too many.

What I was attempting to do is distinguish between the attention-grabbing headline and the actual danger level for the public in Dublin, something I wish the media had done in our case and something that I thought might show how this SHOULD be viewed by people (whatever city it relates to).

And I was genuinely curious as to how many of the 19 were innocent people.

But I'm with you all the way; while I'd love if all the scumbags and thugs and skangers shot each other to bits and we shot the last man standing, even one innocent victim is still a huge loss.

AckwelFoley

Irelands Crime Capitals: Dublin

On TV3 now

Edit: Never mind.. its more about the dublin riots.. The 2 been interviewed as rioters are a yank and some culchie... lol

Sir Oxman

this place is surely the worlds #1 though...

"Ciudad Juarez has had 1,986 homicides through mid-October this year — averaging seven a day in the city of 1.5 million people"

baalthor

I read this article on Sunday but didn't pay it too much attention. Still, the claim that Dublin has a higher gun murder rate than Washington DC did catch my eye.
After all, DC has been regarded as the crime capital of the US for many years so if we are competitive with them, then we do have a serious problem!

But is the claim true? In a word NO, in a bigger word it's BULL****!

But how did Ali Bracken (the author of the article) come up with her bull**** statistic?

Bracken gave the following stats:
Dublin 2009: 19 gun murders in pop of 1.2m = gun-murder rate(per 100,000) of 1.58

DC 2009: 91 gun murders in population of 6m = gun-murder rate(per 100,000) of 1.52

So Dublin is more dangerous than DC !!!

(This was also shown on a large graph in the printed edition, also she used per million rather than per 100,000)

How do I know that her stats are BS?

First I looked at the FBI murder data for 2008

These show that the City of Washington DC had 186 murders in a population of 591,833, giving a murder rate of 31.4 - WOW- just a bit higher than Dublin!

They also show that the much larger DC Metro area (pop 5.3m) had 401 murders giving a lower rate of 7.5 - better than DC but still far higher than Dublin.
Of course this is because the metro area covers the DC City area (scary) plus leafy suburbs and other cities (not so scary).

Bracken's stats are for 2009 though, so I visited the DC Police website where we see that there have been 125 murders so far this year.
However the article is about gun killings and 91 is probably the right figure.
This is because guns are used in around 72% of murders in the DC region so 72% of 125 gives 91.

OK, the next step is the clever/stupid one from Bracken.
It's pretty clear from the website that the DC Police stats are for the DC City area only (i.e population of just over half a million). The much larger metro area has separate police forces and as we've seen, its own separate murders.

But what Ali seems to have done is to first round up the metro population to 6m and then divide it into the city area murder rate.
She divided 91 by 6,000,000 instead of the correct figure (591,833)
This of course is statistical nonsense and produces a murder rate for Washington DC that's ten times smaller than reality.

So that's how you prove that Dublin's gun murder rate is "worse than Washington" !

Liam Byrne

baalthor wrote: »

So that's how you prove that Dublin's gun murder rate is "worse than Washington" !

As I said earlier, this is the type of "reporting" that's been going on for years.

Can I ask if you looked into the figures as in as much detail when you'd have seen an equivalent headline about elsewhere in the past ?

Because I can tell you that most people don't bother, which is why bull**** headlines and skewed stats are so damaging. And people who point out the facts - like you've done above - are generally ridiculed as being "over-sensitive". I know this first-hand.

If this headline does nothing else other than to make people think twice about believing half the crap they read, and choosing to diss a whole city as a result, then it will at least have achieved something good.

As the OP said, though, 19 is still 19, and even if the "newspapers" cop themselves on and start reporting facts for a change, something still needs to be done to prevent that 19 - or even 1 of those 19 - recurring in the future.

baalthor

Liam Byrne wrote: »

As I said earlier, this is the type of "reporting" that's been going on for years.

Can I ask if you looked into the figures as in as much detail when you'd have seen an equivalent headline about elsewhere in the past ?

Because I can tell you that most people don't bother, which is why bull**** headlines and skewed stats are so damaging. And people who point out the facts - like you've done above - are generally ridiculed as being "over-sensitive". I know this first-hand.

If this headline does nothing else other than to make people think twice about believing half the crap they read, and choosing to diss a whole city as a result, then it will at least have achieved something good.

As the OP said, though, 19 is still 19, and even if the "newspapers" cop themselves on and start reporting facts for a change, something still needs to be done to prevent that 19 - or even 1 of those 19 - recurring in the future.

I've made a comment about the article on the Tribune website - whether it will have any effect ....

tommyboy2222

thats how we roll mutha****a

Pdfile

tommyboy2222 wrote: »

thats how we roll mutha****a

true that mayne, people gettin shot up over nothin mayne.

cause real men need weapons :rolleyes:

Palmerstown_guy

I hate this cop out "let them shoot each other" bullcrap.

I don't want to live in a gangland murder city...or rear my children... if nothing is done about it. It's sick. I want ot see action from our government!

Do you want to live in a Dublin where murders routinely happen? No.

19 dead bodies... takes the biscuit...it's affects all society. The botton line is there is a DEMAND for drugs in the city of Dublin...and these gangs rule that trade and will sickly murder anyone who gets in their way.

As I mentioned are we waiting for another Veronica Guerin to get assassinated to wake up Ireland up to the truth?

My name is URL

Palmerstown_guy wrote: »

I don't want to live in a gangland murder city...or rear my children... if nothing is done about it. It's sick. I want ot see action from our government!

Do you want to live in a Dublin where murders routinely happen? No.

19 dead bodies... takes the biscuit...it's affects all society. The botton line is there is a DEMAND for drugs in the city of Dublin...and these gangs rule that trade and will sickly murder anyone who gets in their way.

.

star.chaser

urban muck savages

You Suck!

Maybe if there was less dogshit on the ground, people wouldn't be so inclined to shoot each other.......go wan dublin!

star.chaser

I know we have a lot of successful hits in Ireland but the Irish scumbags are amateurs and small fish when compared to mainland european gangs.
Take for example the 2nd in command in the italian mafia who was recently caught who had the 7 year old son of someone that grassed on him disolved in acid. Or what about the vesties, shane coat and steven slugg who went over to spain throwing their weight around. two oirish men trying to take on europe and ended up embedded in the foundation of a hotel. go on ya good thing! stick to the joy bleedin ridin

Palmerstown_guy

So, starchaser, its a case of whose better, is it?

Do you have any proof on those far fetched stories.

lightening

Palmerstown_guy wrote: »

So, starchaser, its a case of whose better, is it?

Do you have any proof on those far fetched stories.

Ah, in fairness the Italian mafia have a bad name!

star.chaser

this one is in the news the last few days:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8361661.stm

you must be very young if you don't remember the vesties from west dublin. it was about five year ago:

http://www.independent.ie/topics/Shane+Coates

Nichololas

wudangclan wrote: »

perhaps legalise the industry in which most of these gangsters are employed in order to remove both the financial incentive for gang membership and funds for supplies of weapons?

Yeah but first they'd need to learn to run a legitimate business uh file-paperwork read.

They're not gangsters because cocaine/heroin is illegal, they're gangsters because they're gangsters (socio-economic reasons aside) - if chewing gum were made illegal then they'd be smuggling it through the docks and chiseling it off the pavement to sell in no time (actually that mightn't be a bad idea).

wudangclan

Enlil_Nick wrote: »

Yeah but first they'd need to learn to run a legitimate business uh file-paperwork read.

They're not gangsters because cocaine/heroin is illegal, they're gangsters because they're gangsters (socio-economic reasons aside) - if chewing gum were made illegal then they'd be smuggling it through the docks and chiseling it off the pavement to sell in no time (actually that mightn't be a bad idea).

But the size of the market and the rewards involved draw in people who otherwise never have become involved in crime.Drugs users invariably become ensnared in the business when,had the business been legal,they too would never have become criminals.

Palmerstown_guy

"But the size of the market and the rewards involved draw in people who otherwise never have become involved in crime"

Anyone know the size of the market? It must be huge in Dublin city.

Joe Public must be held responsible too for keeping the demand high. They supply, "we" demand ...and then they murder.

enda1

Does it really matter how people are murdered?

A more relevant statistic would be just murder numbers. Anyone got any up to date stats on that?

wudangclan

Palmerstown_guy wrote: »

"But the size of the market and the rewards involved draw in people who otherwise never have become involved in crime"

Anyone know the size of the market? It must be huge in Dublin city.

Joe Public must be held responsible too for keeping the demand high. They supply, "we" demand ...and then they murder.

The last estimate I saw,last year, was 1/2 billion euros (countrywide) per annum.I presume that's reduced somewhat with the recession.