Gah - not all smooth sailing after all

johngalway

So, I convince my mate to go to Athlone instead of bunny and fox shooting. Just as well as it was bucketing it down, thought once or twice we'd be as well off to head home in that downpour. Struggled on and reached the promised land eventually with my shiny new HMR licence to pick up my shiny new HMR barrel and some other related goodies.

Busy in McBrides as per usual. Take the opportunity to look around as the customers filter through. In behind the counter and I'm busy picking and choosing HMR ammo to sample, need cleaning rod, jag, brushes, blah.

James disappears into the gun room and I take the opportunity to have a gander inside that Alladins cave. I was not disappointed

Out he comes, have you got your license? Yep

Now, most of us who go there know James can be a messer the very very odd time...

Thems not the right numbers...

:eek:

Q me preparing to fcuk him out of it for pulling my leg.

Except.

He's not.

Thems indeed not the right numbers :eek:

He had the new barrel in the shop, when the license arrived to me I presumed :rolleyes: the serial on the license was correct. Bar phoning him to check, which never entered my head, I'd no paper record of those numbers (forgot to photocopy applications).

As it turns out, somewhere along the line the serial number of the .22lr barrel I was trading in was put in the place of the .17HMR barrel :rolleyes: That did not happen on the application forms as I was particularly anal about checking them for errors. Actually got told off tonight for asking about "silencers", that's how much I read them bloody forms.

So, the fun begins anew tomorrow, going to travel to the main station and see what's to be done.

No doubt more form filling fun.

How could I have thought it would be so easy

P.S. His take on the "silencer" tick box is that it's a waste of time and people will still need permit letters from Supernintendos.

G17

johngalway wrote: »

Supernintendos.

He he he.

meathstevie

Hang on a wee bit there John. Are you actually saying that you've been told that it doesn't really make a difference if you tick the box for a suppressor or not ?

rrpc

meathstevie wrote: »

Hang on a wee bit there John. Are you actually saying that you've been told that it doesn't really make a difference if you tick the box for a suppressor or not ?

Of course it makes a difference. If you don't tick the box, you won't have applied, attaching a letter only gives the reason you want it, ticking the box puts the request on the system for it to be assessed.

And the form the permit takes is not influenced by the way you make your application.

deerhunter1

rrpc wrote: »

Of course it makes a difference. If you don't tick the box, you won't have applied, attaching a letter only gives the reason you want it, ticking the box puts the request on the system for it to be assessed.

And the form the permit takes is not influenced by the way you make your application.

There is no need to attach letters,you are just giving them more ammo, do what it says on the form Tick the Box. You are applying for a weapon with a moderator if you are not told is not granted then you can ask why, if you get your licence granted you also have been granted it with the moderator as your application has the box ticked. It is on the system. You are shooting yourself in the foot by adding letters explaining this and that.

4gun

must have been heartbreaking John,:( like telling your children they cant open their Christmas presents untill new years day:p....still,

rrpc

deerhunter1 wrote: »

There is no need to attach letters,you are just giving them more ammo, do what it says on the form Tick the Box. You are applying for a weapon with a moderator if you are not told is not granted then you can ask why, if you get your licence granted you also have been granted it with the moderator as your application has the box ticked. It is on the system. You are shooting yourself in the foot by adding letters explaining this and that.

Except of course if you're asked for them

and there is this bit in the act:

A superintendent shall not grant an authorisation under this section unless he is satisfied that the person who is to have possession of the silencer or to whom it is to be sold or transferred is the holder of a firearm certificate for a firearm to which the silencer can be fitted and that—
the person has a special need that is, in the opinion of the superintendent, sufficient to justify the granting of the authorisation for the silencer.

Which of course you don't have to do, but then he doesn't have to issue.

It wasn't me!

I spoke to my local district office yesterday (You're right rrpc, the Super has moved on. Thought he was staying until after Christmas myself) and the Inspector in charge of licensing at the moment told me that the moderator is deemed granted if the application is successful and the moderator box is ticked. I had a nice letter in with my application detailing reasons for wanting it, but I don't know what difference that made. Also got lots of lovely clarification on the situation with my article 7 and getting my Europass renewed, so all going well, could be picking up a rifle next week with any luck.

ivanthehunter

Its not really going to be that much of an issue to stick a letter with one short paragraph into the form to explain why such items are an absolute necessity!!!

In relation to 'written permission from a superintendent' which is seen as a required necessity for the possession of said items, is the same written permission not acquired when the licence is approved as the super must sign off on all application!!!
Whether or not one has actual possession of the written permission might be irrelevant to the fact that such permission exists via the sign off process.

I would assume that an application would fail completely if one part of the application was deemed unsuitable for approval!!
I would like to think that the garda would ring the number supplied and suggest an alternative course of action before a FCA1 was marked UNAPPROVED!:(

johngalway

meathstevie wrote: »

Hang on a wee bit there John. Are you actually saying that you've been told that it doesn't really make a difference if you tick the box for a suppressor or not ?

That's what James reckoned.

Myself and my local Garda both reckon once I had ticked the "silencer" box and my application had been granted then I'm OK to proceed with that.

Where I feel uncomfortable is some still seem to be getting mod permit letters, so presumably those districts are both looking for them and issuing them. Where I may land in hot water is if I go ahead, thread my rifle, buy my can, arrive in the back of beyond on a shooting invite and have their local boys in blue check me out.

Ta-dah, stranger with gun unknown to any of us has no permit for his mod, what's to be done.

At the moment my local Garda is sorting out the serial no. cock up, then he said to chase him up about the mods cos while the .223 is all sorted license wise the HMR is how it is at the moment.

Where I have a problem with the "silencer" tick box is

a. While I ticked those on two forms, no mention what so ever was made of moderators in any correspondence from the Gardai to me. So I have no record whether I'm approved, denied, or it's still being decided.

b. If we still do need those letters then the tick box is a complete waste of space.

That situation needs to be properly clarified countrywide IMO.

Basically what I'm asking my local Garda to do is find out, for sure, not guess or distill from whatever, am I OK to proceed as is. The law can be a very funny thing and I don't particularly need to run foul of it at the moment.

johngalway

Oh yeah, not sure if this is correct or not but my local Garda reckoned I was the first in the district with the new licenses

Added in his words "...and it's fcuking wrong!..."

rrpc

I don't think the act has changed sufficiently. As far as I know the 1990 act still stands and the section on silencers (I'm, using that word because it's in the act) specifies that the Superintendent's authorisation can only last for one year.

So ticking the box to my mind is notifying the system that you're applying. You still need to get the authorisation and get it every year too.

I'm still checking...

deerhunter1

johngalway wrote: »

That's what James reckoned.

Myself and my local Garda both reckon once I had ticked the "silencer" box and my application had been granted then I'm OK to proceed with that.

Where I feel uncomfortable is some still seem to be getting mod permit letters, so presumably those districts are both looking for them and issuing them. Where I may land in hot water is if I go ahead, thread my rifle, buy my can, arrive in the back of beyond on a shooting invite and have their local boys in blue check me out.

Ta-dah, stranger with gun unknown to any of us has no permit for his mod, what's to be done.

At the moment my local Garda is sorting out the serial no. cock up, then he said to chase him up about the mods cos while the .223 is all sorted license wise the HMR is how it is at the moment.

Where I have a problem with the "silencer" tick box is

a. While I ticked those on two forms, no mention what so ever was made of moderators in any correspondence from the Gardai to me. So I have no record whether I'm approved, denied, or it's still being decided.

b. If we still do need those letters then the tick box is a complete waste of space.

That situation needs to be properly clarified countrywide IMO.

Basically what I'm asking my local Garda to do is find out, for sure, not guess or distill from whatever, am I OK to proceed as is. The law can be a very funny thing and I don't particularly need to run foul of it at the moment.

If you are stopped by the GS they check your credentials, it is on the pulse system that you have a moderator, otherwise our new licences are worth jack sh-t as there is no photographic proof on the piece of paper that is called a gun licence, that the gun you are carrying belongs to you or you are that person

johngalway

Cheers RRPC,

The golden goose I'm after is what would stand up in front of a judge really. Some might say that's going a bit far, but I don't think so. Would rather be looking at it than looking for it.

johngalway

deerhunter1 wrote: »

If you are stopped by the GS they check your credentials, it is on the pulse system that you have a moderator, otherwise our new licences are worth jack sh-t as there is no photographic proof on the piece of paper that is called a gun licence, that the gun you are carrying belongs to you or you are that person

Both my mate and the Garda said that today, no photo, if I lost mine and someone reasonably similar in age picks it up they can presumably use it. But, as for the mods, there's no record on my license that I have either applied for one or been granted or refused one and since I've no access to Pulse I don't know what is or isn't on there.

I'm not at all comfortable that there's no reference to moderators anywhere in the letters or licenses. From my position now, with the paperwork I have here, I can't prove Jack Schitt to any Garda or other about any mod I may get in the future, that's the predicament in a nutshell really.

rrpc

This is the bit about one year.

An authorisation under this section may be granted for such period not exceeding one year as is specified in the authorisation and may be revoked by the superintendent of the district where its holder resides.

It's the 'under this section' bit I'm investigating to see if there's another section.

Edit: No, I can find no authorisation under the firearms acts that lasts from more than one year. (Apart from clubs and ranges that is).

meathstevie

Hang on another wee bit; rifle licence valid for 36 months, suppressor letter valid for 12 months ? Is that bunch of people commonly referred to as a government ever going to get anything right ?

rrpc

meathstevie wrote: »

Hang on another wee bit; rifle licence valid for 36 months, suppressor letter valid for 12 months ? Is that bunch of people commonly referred to as a government ever going to get anything right ?

Is that a rhetorical question?

deerhunter1

meathstevie wrote: »

Hang on another wee bit; rifle licence valid for 36 months, suppressor letter valid for 12 months ? Is that bunch of people commonly referred to as a government ever going to get anything right ?

No licence for 3years moderator for 3years

Sparks

johngalway wrote: »

Oh yeah, not sure if this is correct or not but my local Garda reckoned I was the first in the district with the new licenses
Added in his words "...and it's fcuking wrong!..."

Ditto - mine hadn't seen the new licences yet until I came in with mine to get my europass updated today

Sparks

rrpc wrote: »

I can find no authorisation under the firearms acts that lasts from more than one year

Also ditto. I did mention it earlier that you could get the authorisation renewed; but then, as Ivan mentioned, unless you're on a range, that authorisation may not be valid and a licence might be the only thing that satisfies the legislation...

johngalway

Sparks wrote: »

Ditto - mine hadn't seen the new licences yet until I came in with mine to get my europass updated today

Gave him a photo copy of the offending article at his request. I think it was as much to show to the other Gardai in Clifden as it was to be a reference of my license.

After much examination he exclaimed "After all that talk, is this all it is?! All that hassle". He was on the phone to another Garda, "Have you seen one of the new licenses? No? *look of glee* I have one here in my hand".

Had to laugh.

johngalway

Sparks wrote: »

Also ditto. I did mention it earlier that you could get the authorisation renewed; but then, as Ivan mentioned, unless you're on a range, that authorisation may not be valid and a licence might be the only thing that satisfies the legislation...

Surely, unless clarified further by Gardai or Other, then that defeats the purpose of the tick box? Seems the permit letter is still needed, as the license is on a three year term, but no one can find any mod authorisation which can last more than one year, we can't go renewing three year licenses every year.

rrpc

deerhunter1 wrote: »

No licence for 3years moderator for 3years

Ah, the Jean Luc Picard effect: "Make it so..."

Sparks

johngalway wrote: »

Surely, unless clarified further by Gardai or Other, then that defeats the purpose of the tick box?

How would it? The tick box gets you a licence for your moderator (a side effect of it being in the definition of a firearm). Since firearms licences last for 3 years...

johngalway

Sparks wrote: »

How would it? The tick box gets you a licence for your moderator (a side effect of it being in the definition of a firearm). Since firearms licences last for 3 years...

I may be lost at this point.

Because the license is a three year one. And no one's been able to find anything that authorizes permission for a mod for more than one calendar year.

Or did I zig when I should have zagged somewhere along there?

rrpc

No Sparks is right, the problem is whether you're getting a licence or an authorisation as both exist in law simultaneously and at the same time.

We don't actually know because so far no-one has seen a mention of a silencer on their licence and many people are still getting authorisations (which only last one year).

We should be confused

Cass

Can i ask something here? These authorisations you are all getting, do they have an expiry date on them? I used to get mine stamped and signed each year but as it has no expiry date i do not intend to get it stamped until the expiry of my license.

Traumadoc

Has anyone called the "Park" for clarification?

IRLConor

rrpc wrote: »

No Sparks is right, the problem is whether you're getting a licence or an authorisation as both exist in law simultaneously and at the same time.

We don't actually know because so far no-one has seen a mention of a silencer on their licence and many people are still getting authorisations (which only last one year).

We should be confused

Isn't there also a "permit" (section 2 (3) (a) of the Firearms Act)?

Bloody stupid anyway, they should just stop regulating the sale and possession of moderators. The only additional danger from them is if someone unscrews one and belts you with it.

rrpc

IRLConor wrote: »

Isn't there also a "permit" (section 2 (3) (a) of the Firearms Act)?

Only to possess and carry, not to use.

Bloody stupid anyway, they should just stop regulating the sale and possession of moderators. The only additional danger from them is if someone unscrews one and belts you with it.

Go forth to another thread young man and verily your head will spin at the discussion that poured forth therein on that subject.

And you'll be none the wiser