How to stop ' cheating '

Davidth88

Hi,

I was reading in the paper yesterday how the FA is now thinking/going to use video evidence to punish ' dives ' . This was on the back of the peno awarded during the LFC vs Birmingham game.
What the article mentioned is that in Germany they have stopped ' cheating ' like diving/handballs by the ref just asking the player.. ' did you dive ? '

If the player says ' yes ' then the foul is reversed and the game continues and the incident is closed . If the player says ' no it was a foul ' then the free kick stands . However if later in video evidence its proved to be a lie the player gets a 3 match ban

Now maybe this works because of the ' German mentality ' , however do people think this would work in the EPL ?

Xavi6

Good idea but it's flawed. What happens if it's a last day of the season relegation 6 pointer? Player dives, wins peno, says it was a foul, team stays up. Other team goes down and loses millions. Ok the player might subsequently get a 3 match ban but so what? He'll just miss the first few games of the next season while the club keeps its top flight status. Collateral damage.

Bandit12

Diving is part and parcel of the game. All the top players (Gerrard,Rooney,Dropba) are serial divers. Alway's amazes me how this debate comes up after a non-English player is caught in a diving "scandal".

Davidth88

Bandit12 wrote: »

Diving is part and parcel of the game. All the top players (Gerrard,Rooney,Dropba) are serial divers. Alway's amazes me how this debate comes up after a non-English player is caught in a diving "scandal".

a) I was very careful not to mention the player , partly because as you say virtually every player is guilty of this
b) The example I was giving is working in Germany and has shown to work.
c) What on earth has a players nationality got to do with this thread ?

Bandit12

Davidth88 wrote: »

a) I was very careful not to mention the player , partly because as you say virtually every player is guilty of this
b) The example I was giving is working in Germany and has shown to work.
c) What on earth has a players nationality got to do with this thread ?

Oh come on out of that. You did'nt mention the players name.:pac: It's as plain as day your talking about N'Gog. Do you really think any player worth his salt is going to say "yes ref i dived" in any top league match. Can you imagine Rooney in a top four clash brusting into the box and taking a dive only for the ref to ask him if he dived and Rooney saying yes i did ref i'm so sorry. It would'nt work no matter how long a ban was imposed on any offending player because most pro footballers are cheats when you peel away the layers.

Davidth88

From what I understood from the article ( Daily Mail yesterday ) this did actually work in Germany .

Now re-reading the article it talks in the past tense , also does not mention the Bundasleage by name , but it would have to be the professional game after all parks games are not televised.

But maybe it was abandoned ? anyone know ??

The question I would have is to you about the example you give from Rooney why not ?

If he knows if he lies he is out for 3 games , he may well think twice . Indeed I think he would just not dive

Now the example that Xavi6 mentions is very specific , indeed this system would not work in this case .

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1226813/GRAHAM-POLLS-OFFICIAL-LINE-Germany-hold-answer-combating-divers-like-David-Ngog.html

godtabh

Bandit12 wrote: »

Diving is part and parcel of the game. All the top players (Gerrard,Rooney,Dropba) are serial divers. Alway's amazes me how this debate comes up after a non-English player is caught in a diving "scandal".

He's not english.


Use TV evidence. If he dives give him a massive ban (9 matches or more as a starting point). Cant see him diving again or other people will think twice.

Necronomicon

The reason the Eduardo case was dismissed, iirc, is because they weren't satisfied that there was proof of diving on the replay. This would be a pretty big obstacle I think, because how often are cases as cut and dry as the N'Gog incident? Usually dives (or fouls, depending on how you perceive them) are debated here for days on end. One man's foul is another one's dive, even with the benefit of replays at the click of a button.

gucci

In magical theory land this might work. But in reality, greedy financially and goal driven professional land it wouldn't. As outlined above the pros of actually diving would still exist (ie to gain a better opportunity to score/ get the opposition player sent off/ waste time etc) and at certain times players will still do this if they think its to theirs or the teams advantage even if there is a consequence post match.
Also there is so much debate and analysis and certain media pundits,ex players and managers trying to justify a players reasoning for diving, or proving that the players have dived, that there would be just as much analysis and bull crap and whining going on if there was a player banned for diving after saying he didn't.

The Muppet

Bandit12 wrote: »

Oh come on out of that. You did'nt mention the players name.:pac: It's as plain as day your talking about N'Gog. Do you really think any player worth his salt is going to say "yes ref i dived" in any top league match.

I thought he was talking about diving in general, lower the defences there a little, you're not under attack.


I think it's an excellent idea. Players would not want to lie about it because they would be crucified by the media for lieing. Xabi's concerns are valid but that would be an exceptional set of circumstances. I don't think there is anything to lose by trying it out, worst case scenario is that the players all lie and things stay as they are.

gucci

The Muppet wrote: »

I don't think there is anything to lose by trying it out, worst case scenario is that the players all lie and things stay as they are.

Effectively they are lying by diving in the first place. Im sure shameless divers would have a thick enough neck to argue that they havent dived.

This whole thing would still have players arguing with the ref as well. As opposition wouldnt want the penalty / free given regardless of the declaration by the player fouled that he has been foulded.

The Muppet

gucci wrote: »

Effectively they are lying by diving in the first place. Im sure shameless divers would have a thick enough neck to argue that they havent dived.

This whole thing would still have players arguing with the ref as well. As opposition wouldnt want the penalty / free given regardless of the declaration by the player fouled that he has been foulded.

According to the OP it has not had any of these effects where it has been tried, how are we to know how effective it would be if it's not trialed. There's little to lose by trialing it to see how it pans out.

I seem to remember Robbie Fowler being awarded a penalty once and telling the ref it wasn't a pen, I think a lot of footballers are honest and would own up, again we'll not know unless its tried.

kida

The Muppet wrote: »

I thought he was talking about diving in general, lower the defences there a little, you're not under attack.


I think it's an excellent idea. Players would not want to lie about it because they would be crucified by the media for lieing. Xabi's concerns are valid but that would be an exceptional set of circumstances. I don't think there is anything to lose by trying it out, worst case scenario is that the players all lie and things stay as they are.

its worth trying, on Monday night by the time the penatly was taken the ref must have had doubts, would N'Gog have said he didn't dive - I dont think so

Mr. Presentable

Punish the club, not the player. Instead of a three game ban for the player, a three point fine for the club. It is management at the clubs (regardless of their public stance) that sanction and indeed promote cheating.

However, the act of cheating would need to be indefensible, which I suspect would merely lead to subtler cheating.

Mr. Presentable

The Muppet wrote: »

According to the OP it has not had any of these effects where it has been tried, how are we to know how effective it would be if it's not trialed. There's little to lose by trialing it to see how it pans out.

I seem to remember Robbie Fowler being awarded a penalty once and telling the ref it wasn't a pen, I think a lot of footballers are honest and would own up, again we'll not know unless its tried.

Did Fowler ever dive? The problem with this is that if the player is honest he wouldn't dive in the first place.

super_furry

Diving has always, always gone on in the game - it's nothing new at all. The only thing now is that because there are dozens of high defination cameras around the pitch, catching every single concievable angle, it's more evident. I don't belive players are diving more than they ever have before, it's just the technology is catching them.

jonnyfingers

Diving is a terrible part of the game. Video evidence should definitely be used to stamp it out. If a player is ruled to have cheated there should definitely be punishments to either him or the club even after the game has finished. But I think dodgy decisions by referees that lead to goals, the ruling out of a goal or sending offs are a much bigger problem in the game.

I think some form of video evidence needs to be used during a game and I think a video ref should already be a part of the game. Fifa has said it will slow down the game but I disagree. Look at rugby. At most there's a handful of video ref decisions in a game. It would be the same for football. Granted there could be more frees or offsides. But there is away around that.

Fifa could bring in a system like in tennis where you can challenge three decisions by the umpire. This could be used for football also. If a manager had 3 challenges during a game he would have to use them wisely. Look at offsides as an example. If the linesman flags for a borderline offside there could be a rule that both teams play on until the outcome of the move. At the end of the move if the manager of the defending team doesn't challenge, say if a defender gets the ball or it goes out for a goal kick, the game goes on as normal. If he does challenge, say if the move results in a goal, it goes to a video ref. If the challenge is succesful the offside stands and he gets the challenge back. If the decision goes against him the goal stands and that's one challenge gone. This would stop every borderline offside being disputed but deal with offsides that lead to a goal.

It could be the same for penalties, sending offs or fouls that lead to a goal. But with only 3 challenges managers would have to be careful and only challenge when it's vitally important or when they feel they're 100% right.

But look how one challenge could change the outcome of a game. It could prevent a goal, a penalty or a sending off. Huge decisions that currently happen in an instant with one referee deciding the outcome.

eZe^

Bandit12 wrote: »

Diving is part and parcel of the game. All the top players (Gerrard,Rooney,Dropba) are serial divers. Alway's amazes me how this debate comes up after a non-English player is caught in a diving "scandal".

This is exactly what's wrong with football at the moment. The only way to stop cheating is if people stop accepting the fact that it's 'part and parcel' of the game. Just because we have learned to live with it does not mean it is right. It's 100% against the rules. Referees need to have balls to take the risk every now and then by booking the Ronaldo/ Alves/ Rooney for his dive. Players will be alot less like to blatantly cheat if they know they are more likely to be reprimanded.


Also, the one biggest change that needs to be made is this : Referees need to blow for fouls even when the player DOESNT go down, this is one of the biggest reasons players dive. They think that even if there is contact, the only way they'll get a penalty/ free kick is if they fall down. This isn't the case, as soon as a player is fouled, even if he stays on his feet, the penalty should be given. This will reassure players that they don't need to over exaggerate their falls just so they can win a foul. A foul is a bloody foul.

Also, the idea that contact is the only requirement for a foul to be a foul is also bullsh*t, isn't the definition of a foul anything that directly impedes a player without winning the ball. I mean, it's so frustrating when you see don't see a foul for when an opposition player slide in, not get any of the ball, but the player has to completely change his body position to avoid the challenge, knocking him off balance.

Also, another aspect of cynical cheating that I think needs to be eradicated is targeted fouling. How many games a season do you see Messi/ Ronaldo getting targeted by the opposition, where each player 'gets a turn' at fouling Messi, so instead of one player racking up alot of fouls and getting carded, the fouls are evenly distributed among the 10 outfield players. What I think would get rid of this is : Say you have to commit 5 fouls to get a yellow card, if you see that one particular player is getting targeted (eg - Messi), yellow card the 5 person who fouls Messi, regardless of whether it's his 1st, 2nd, or 3rd foul. That'll tell the opposition that they can't just distribute the fouls evenly among themselves, they'll get punished either way. Either they'll continue to do so and risk getting a red, or that cynical side of the game will be gone. Win win...

LuckyLloyd

Xavi6 wrote: »

Good idea but it's flawed. What happens if it's a last day of the season relegation 6 pointer? Player dives, wins peno, says it was a foul, team stays up. Other team goes down and loses millions. Ok the player might subsequently get a 3 match ban but so what? He'll just miss the first few games of the next season while the club keeps its top flight status. Collateral damage.

You're underestimating the affect on the mentality of players that this system would have due to the moral outrage that would be meted out to those who angle shoot within it. Psychologically, it would draw a really clear line between those who cheat and those who don't, and leave the former group with absolutely nowhere to hide.

At the end of the day, we need to try something. The current method of officiating games is obviously not cutting it. It is antiquated and inefficient, and it is long past time for us to try potential fixes.

Change is good.

mayordenis

The problem with diving being repramanded is that in the case of say n'gog that there was a big pile of Lee Carsley lying in the path he was running, so it could easily be claimed that he was jumping over the challenge.

PHB

I think that diving stems from the fact, like eZe says, that oftentimes, you're more likely to get the free kick you deserve if you do dive.

However, I think that a simple system would fix diving in the long term. Aside from encouraging refs to give frees when they should, make a simple rule that if a player is found to have dived on video evidence, they get a 5 match ban. Don't give the marginal ones, just give the flat out blatent dives that have no basis whatsoever. If you do that, eventually other dives will start to stop happening aswell, because if you **** up the dive, it's too great a risk.

The Muppet

mayordenis wrote: »

The problem with diving being repramanded is that in the case of say n'gog that there was a big pile of Lee Carsley lying in the path he was running, so it could easily be claimed that he was jumping over the challenge.

Stop making excuses, it was a leg he had to jump over.

TheDoc

It is an annoying part of the game, but as shown in the past the FA dont have the balls to make big decision on it.

What annoys me more if the favouritism shown by the English media and papers.

I remember Steven Gerrard taking a dive to get liverpool their peno in CL final against Milan.

I notice Wayne Rooney takes a fair few dives.

John Terry is one for the easy fall along with Lampard.

Damien Duff, is the biggest diver I've ever seen, the slightest tap, he is down on the ground getting the free kick, watch him, I've seen him play now about 10 times, and watched him on the telly loads, and he is the biggest diver ever, and gets away with it everytime.

There is then the obvious ones like Drogba, which is just shocking to see him get away with it week in week out.

But at the end of the day theres no balls within the FA to do anything about it, lengthy match bans and financial implications should start to stamp it out.

And its easy to see the dives to be honest, I cant understand those that cant.

mayordenis

The Muppet wrote: »

Stop making excuses, it was a leg he had to jump over.

I'm saying it could be argued, not that it's what I think.

So maybe stop a little argumentative....

ever wonder why people think you're a cancer on this forum?

herbieflowers

PHB wrote: »

I think that diving stems from the fact, like eZe says, that oftentimes, you're more likely to get the free kick you deserve if you do dive.

However, I think that a simple system would fix diving in the long term. Aside from encouraging refs to give frees when they should, make a simple rule that if a player is found to have dived on video evidence, they get a 5 match ban. Don't give the marginal ones, just give the flat out blatent dives that have no basis whatsoever. If you do that, eventually other dives will start to stop happening aswell, because if you **** up the dive, it's too great a risk.

This is what I don't understand. If they, the footballing authorities, are intent on stamping it out then the technology needs to improve. The pace of the game, allied to the fact that most dives are clever / hard to spot by the referee, means the ref - if given proper authority to issue a straight red for a dive, let's say - isn't always going to get it right.

On another note, it's remarkable how little shame these professional athletes have in going to ground so easy. In the past it would've been seen as embarassing seeing a grown man go down with little contact!

matrim

Xavi6 wrote: »

Good idea but it's flawed. What happens if it's a last day of the season relegation 6 pointer? Player dives, wins peno, says it was a foul, team stays up. Other team goes down and loses millions. Ok the player might subsequently get a 3 match ban but so what? He'll just miss the first few games of the next season while the club keeps its top flight status. Collateral damage.

In fairness, this could happen with any rule. E.g. Last day of the season, the attacker is through on goal, defender\ keeper doesn't try to get the ball and just takes out the man.
Or if they brought in retrospective banning for dives based on TV reviews, the same thing could happen.

Fromvert

I can never see diving/cheating being stopped.

The player will always find an excuse and who's going to get the first ban? It will be appealed and appealed.

gucci

Fromvert wrote: »

I can never see diving/cheating being stopped.

The player will always find an excuse and who's going to get the first ban? It will be appealed and appealed.

True, cheating is a disgusting integrated part of football as we know it, from every level of the sport, not just at professional. Certain teams and individuals will cheat and use gamesmanship and argue black is white, for offside, fouls, goal line decisions etc.

Ultimately its down to:

1. Many Players/ Coaches /Managers having little or no respect for referees. Who will question every single decision and whine and moan about marginal decisions etc.

2. Weak refereeing (perhaps they are not supported by their relevant authorities to deal with cheaters and the moaners mentioned above.)

Reganio 2

nipplenuts wrote: »

Did Fowler ever dive? The problem with this is that if the player is honest he wouldn't dive in the first place.

Fowler dived against Seaman about 10 years ago, Seaman rushed out Fowler jumped over him went down ref gave a pen and Fowler said it wasn't.

The Muppet wrote:

According to the OP it has not had any of these effects where it has been tried, how are we to know how effective it would be if it's not trialed. There's little to lose by trialing it to see how it pans out.

I seem to remember Robbie Fowler being awarded a penalty once and telling the ref it wasn't a pen, I think a lot of footballers are honest and would own up, again we'll not know unless its tried.

But you see how far you had to go back to find a player that honestly said he dived. How many more dives have we seen since then? I think I remember Arshavin last season diving and he said it wasn't a penalty but that's 2 out of how many dives (That I can remember anyway)

Davidth88

Reganio 2 wrote: »

Fowler dived against Seaman about 10 years ago, Seaman rushed out Fowler jumped over him went down ref gave a pen and Fowler said it wasn't.

I remember that , did he miss the subsequent pen ? I can't recall

Good example

I truly think there is a lot that footie can learn from Rugby as regards referees and how players interact with them .

( I hate to admit that because I can't stand rubgy )

The silly respect campaign is just that silly ..... esp if you look that Sir Alex is part of it ......

GO'S

it would never work as there wont be enough evidence in the video to determine if he dived.He could say he lost his footing?

kerash

Bandit12 wrote: »

Diving is part and parcel of the game. All the top players (Gerrard,Rooney,Dropba) are serial divers. Alway's amazes me how this debate comes up after a non-English player is caught in a diving "scandal".

Can someone link that part of the rule book to me?

LuckyLloyd

GO'S wrote: »

it would never work as there wont be enough evidence in the video to determine if he dived.He could say he lost his footing?

Get a panel of referees to make a subjective judgment call. Everything in life can't be black and white. I'm more comfortable with a non zero error rate in retrospective review than the rather significant error rate within traditional refereeing methods.

The Muppet

mayordenis wrote: »

I'm saying it could be argued, not that it's what I think.

So maybe stop a little argumentative....

ever wonder why people think you're a cancer on this forum?

Thats not what you said at all.

mayordenis wrote:

in the case of say n'gog that there was a big pile of Lee Carsley lying in the path he was running

An outstretched leg is not a big part. you were making excuses.




The answer to your question is no but thanks for asking.

GO'S wrote: »

it would never work as there wont be enough evidence in the video to determine if he dived.He could say he lost his footing?

It would have worked in that scenario as the ref wouldn't give the pen if the player admitted losing his footing,