End of Religion

Flamed Diving

Jakkass wrote: »

China has a Communist history, hence why people are more predisposed to be non-religious, it's pretty much the same in Estonia, and the Czech Republic for example.

And many regions where European Christians colonised, raped and conquered are today Christian thanks to forced conversion, or the more modern approach of bribery (medicine, education, clothing, come to mass? No? No medicine for you then.).

Jakkass wrote: »

Isn't it an arrogant notion to assume that our Western culture is superior to all others?

I don't even know what you are talking about.

philologos

Flamed Diving wrote: »

And many regions where European Christians colonised, raped and conquered are today Christian thanks to forced conversion, or the more modern approach of bribery (medicine, education, clothing, come to mass? No? No medicine for you then.).

Fair enough. I never said it didn't work both ways.

lmaopml

Dades wrote: »

Excelsior, the rise of Christianity in places like Africa does not equate to a rise in religion - just in your religion at the expense of those regions' existing cultures. Just because they used to shake feathered sticks - doesn't mean they didn't have a religion already.

Africa was colonised as opposed to 'evangelised' at the time by the Dutch and the British mostly. The reason why they lost some of their culture and religion has little to do with any 'faith'!.....and a LOT to do with power and control, unfortunately...and the attitude of bringing 'civilisation', whatever that is...!

Terribly sad and beautiful place, Africa...

The Christians out there today, don't discriminate based on 'faith' if they are handing out food and medicine, it would be awful to undermine the fabulous work they do out there - and I've seen it first-hand. There are some genuine heroes out there, doing heroic work every single day....in the heat, blood, sweat and tears...

Flamed Diving

Jakkass wrote: »

Fair enough. I never said it didn't work both ways.

Just out of interest, do you see the spread of Christianity to the Americas, Africa and Oceania as a triumph of the religion? When you hear that there are over a billion followers around the world, mainly in ex-colonial countries, does that make you feel warm inside?

philologos

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Just out of interest, do you see the spread of Christianity to the Americas, Africa and Oceania as a triumph of the religion? When you hear that there are over a billion followers around the world, mainly in ex-colonial countries, does that make you feel warm inside

I don't see the map as a success. I see people who are both living and speaking for Jesus as a success. I think if God is working in peoples lives regardless of whether they live in Vancouver or Timbuktu it's a success. Just because a country has a high percentage of Christians, it doesn't mean that there isn't more to do there.

Flamed Diving

Jakkass wrote: »

I don't see the map as a success. I see people who are both living and speaking for Jesus as a success. I think if God is working in peoples lives regardless of whether they live in Vancouver or Timbuktu it's a success. Just because a country has a high percentage of Christians, it doesn't mean that there isn't more to do there.

It doesn't bother you which circumstances led to its spread in these regions?

Dades

lmaopml wrote: »

The Christians out there today, don't discriminate based on 'faith' if they are handing out food and medicine, it would be awful to undermine the fabulous work they do out there - and I've seen it first-hand. There are some genuine heroes out there, doing heroic work every single day....in the heat, blood, sweat and tears...

I don't doubt they do some great work but the point was the missionaries aren't out there converting atheists!

philologos

Flamed Diving wrote: »

It doesn't bother you which circumstances led to its spread in these regions?

This assumes that all means of evangelism involved such means. This isn't even the case for most. Much of the countries that you have listed there have only shifted in the last century particularly the formerly Communist ones.

Where people did evangelism wrongly, yes it does bother me. It bothers me that they associate Christ with that. I'm not bothered by the fact that Christianity is more available though or that more people have entirely freely accepted Christianity since.

Flamed Diving

I'm more pointing to the displacement of indigenous people in the Americas and Australia, through extermination or spread of disease, which now means that these regions are now populated by predominately white Christians of European descent.

It's something I'm not proud of, as a European.

philologos

I think that's not motivated by true Christianity. Although to say that predominately white Europeans believe in Christianity is a bit unfair. People of pretty much all races / ethnic groups believe.

lmaopml

Dades wrote: »

I don't doubt they do some great work but the point was the missionaries aren't out there converting atheists!

I don't know whether some Africans would call themselves "Atheists" as such....they have their own traditions and beliefs from town to town, and they vary greatly..

The point I'm making is that before Christianity ever existed, MAN used any reason to exploit Africa for his own ends - right back to the ancient Greeks and Romans etc...Imperialism, and building the Empire was the no. one objective at the time. The 'means' of doing this, I don't think any right minded Christian would agree with... The fact that in the latter days much of the reparatory work is being done by Christians in the name of God, should tell a story to the moderate mind....and the Africans are certainly not dragged kicking and screaming to church, nor are they asked to wear a Christian badge in order to receive charity and medicine from well meaning and extremely good people...

By comparison, ....and if you are only going to use one facet and description of these people in history i.e. their 'faith' or lack thereof, as the main mover in their motivations to do 'harm' to others - than if the last century in particular has been a test in secularism, think China, Stalin etc. then it seems there is more here at play than just the fact that these people 'said' they were Christians.....or that Stalin etc said he was an atheist...

Take Ireland for example, we're Christians and have been for a long time mostly...lol....but we've been shipped all over the world because we were 'occupied'.....

My point is that mankind will use any available reason to do some pretty ****ty things on others......The 'reason' people assign may only be the smoke screen behind the true motivations......and humans are fallible and love power...

The American Indians, the Africans, the Aborigines - all have some extremely sad tales.......so too the Russians and the Chinese etc with human rights issues....

It's not always ALL about Christianity.....that bad things have happened.

Flamed Diving

lmaopml wrote: »

It's not always ALL about Christianity.....that bad things have happened.

Who suggested it was?

lmaopml

Your right flamed Diving, my apologies....

..I'm fairly passionate about Africa in particular, and perhaps I don't make a point quick enough when I'm typing I tend to ramble on and on and on and on..lol....I'm getting used to the tone of the forums though..

Flamed Diving

No problemo.

The only thing I was trying to highlight are these smug, triumphant promulgations that some Christians make, regarding the spread of Christianity on all continents, while forgetting the millions of exterminated indiginous people that lie in the wake of this proliferation.

papachango

All public displays of religion should be banned. It should be banned from schools too. Same goes for Santa and the Easter Bunny and the Tooth fairy and all the others. In case you haven't noticed, You're God NEEDS money, and lots of it!!!:cool:

Dades

lmaopml wrote: »

....

It's not always ALL about Christianity.....that bad things have happened.

I don't know why you quoted me with that post - my comment had nothing to do with any of this.

My only point was that Africa hasn't been experiencing a rise in religion but a change in religion. A point relating only to the statistical rise or fall in global religious belief.

lmaopml

Crikey..lol..I'm sorry I thought it was flaming diver I quoted. Sorry about that dades.... That's what I get for logging on here when I should be working Just saw the map thingy and went on a 'mission'...lol....

Turtwig

There is something more to this evangelical conversion of Africans that no one bother to mention here. Many Christians, and even to this day in my own Parish,assume that they have methods of superior knowledge and culture and they need to "help" the African's by showing them the way we do things.
These Christians and others have undoubtedly good intentions in their eyes, but what's best in their eyes isn't best for Africa.
The RC church's sickening stance on condoms is costing peoples lives, but hey, that's Religion for you:
"We are right; we are doing what is good for everyone."

If I could make one recommendation is it that Christians and atheists alike read "The Poisonwood Bible" because it shows just how badly someones good intentions can actually be. I know it's fiction, but it opened my mind to something, which perhaps you guys are already open to? I don't know, the book is still highly recommended though.:)

lmaopml

Malty_T wrote: »

There is something more to this evangelical conversion of Africans that no one bother to mention here. Many Christians, and even to this day in my own Parish,assume that they have methods of superior knowledge and culture and they need to "help" the African's by showing them the way we do things.
These Christians and others have undoubtedly good intentions in their eyes, but what's best in their eyes isn't best for Africa.
The RC church's sickening stance on condoms is costing peoples lives, but hey, that's Religion for you:
"We are right; we are doing what is good for everyone."

If I could make one recommendation is it that Christians and atheists alike read "The Poisonwood Bible" because it shows just how badly someones good intentions can actually be. I know it's fiction, but it opened my mind to something, which perhaps you guys are already open to? I don't know, the book is still highly recommended though.:)

Malty, I could edit your post and insert 'Imperialists' where you have 'Christians' or 'People' where you have Christians and I think it would be a hell of a lot fairer! I would agree with whomever posted about feeling 'guilt' over the treatment Africa has had by Europeans etc over the centuries. The African people and their culture has historically been seen as less than 'civilised' by Europeans - and it was wrong in so many ways.

Have they gained in anyway, shape or form? Perhaps, perhaps not, it's difficult to say, and would make for an interesting debate for sure..lol...

Just on the Condom thing, I don't think you have the first clue really about the problems over in Africa. The Pope only has to scratch his chin these days and somebody has their hand up to disagree with him - or write an article about the 'sexy' Catholic Church, cause they seem to sell quicker to naive people.....Anyways, yeah - Africa is NOT like the western world, obviously. Everybody is out to make a quick buck......I would imagine in a country rife with aids that 140 million 'faulty' condoms that went on the market due to 'pay offs' and 'back-handers'.....could cause a lot of death......this is the 'reality' of the situation over there. When the pope said 'condoms' aren't the answer, he was 100% bang on the mark! I'm not saying that condoms haven't reduced aids in countries like Thailand etc etc where standards are different. This is AFRICA we're talking about here though......and the pope, inline with Catholic doctrine, was speaking to 'Catholic' Africans......We also don't believe in sex before marriage, and faithfullness to one partner.......

The Pope is into 'saving' lives, not killing people - and it's a leap of wonderous and fantastic proportions to say his comments were 'disgusting'! The 'condom' answer to Africa is NOT working and is Western Culture presumptive simpledom on overdrive!

Dades

African people will have sex regardless of what an elderly, white, European virgin in a jewel-encrusted hat tells them to do.

(sex + condom) > (sex - condom)

Flamed Diving

Jewels?

Dades

Yep, jewels. You didn't think he only had the one hat, did you?

Sam Vimes

lmaopml wrote: »

The 'condom' answer to Africa is NOT working and is Western Culture presumptive simpledom on overdrive!

Africans already know that abstinence prevents AIDS and they're having sex anyway so telling them about the wonders of abstinence is NOT working either.

Flamed Diving

I get the impression that certain people want AIDS to wipe out the population of sub-Saharan Africa, but mask their desire behind the protective veil of religious conservatism.

philologos

Dades wrote: »

African people will have sex regardless of what an elderly, white, European virgin in a jewel-encrusted hat tells them to do.

(sex + condom) > (sex - condom)

Defeats the point then kind of.

If the African people won't listen to the Pope on marital fidelity, why would they listen to the Pope on not wearing condoms?

Surely you can see the point.

Turtwig

No it doesn't Jakkass,

It's the fact that the pope is deliberately spreading lies about condoms creating an air of confusion about them.
If he'd shut up then there would be little confusion.
This confusion is costing people their lives!!:mad:

Zillah

Jakkass wrote: »

If the African people won't listen to the Pope on marital fidelity, why would they listen to the Pope on not wearing condoms?

People are stupid and irrational and will indulge emotional motivations more than any other motivation. Emotional motivation says "Fidelity sucks!" and "Ahh, condoms are evil and don't work!".

bnt

Regarding Africa: I spent part of my childhood in South Africa (from age 6), and while I spent most of my time around English-speakers, I did read up on African legends from time to time. We had a book called Indaba, My Children by Credo Mutwa which relates many legends of the Nguni peoples (the forefathers of the Zulu, Xhosa, Swazi, Ndebele, and others). I mention this because the Nguni have creation myths too, myths that have no connection to the Judeo-Christian myths, but which may have links to ancient Egypt e.g. the "tree of life" myths.

These days Mutwa seems to be a self-styled "shaman" who hangs out with David Icke, but he wrote the book back in the early '60s. I should get another copy, because it gets pretty complicated with names like Ninavanhu-Ma, a goddess who literally gave birth to the world (ouch!), and Za-Ha-Rrellel (Sareleli), a wicked emperor and father of all tokoloshes. :eek:

If I may jump back on topic for a bit: my wish is for religion to die a natural death. We've seen, throughout history, that forcing either adoption or abandonment of religion doesn't work in the long term, and can do more harm than good. That's why I think it's important to keep children safe from indoctrination, until they're old enough and wise enough to understand the issues. No more "give me the boy and I will give you the man", please!

philologos

Malty_T wrote: »

No it doesn't Jakkass,

It's the fact that the pope is deliberately spreading lies about condoms creating an air of confusion about them.
If he'd shut up then there would be little confusion.
This confusion is costing people their lives!!:mad:

Academics have agreed with him on the issue:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2009/mar/18/aids-pope-africa-condoms

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/27/AR2009032702825.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2009/oct/07/catholic-church-condoms-africa

It's almost as if you are blaming the Pope for people going against what he actually said, that's absurd to say the very least.

In my humble opinion, which differs from the Pope:
We should be encouraging monogamy and faithfulness, with provisional condom use until the situation improves.

The former helps much much more than the latter.

lmaopml

Malty_T wrote: »

No it doesn't Jakkass,

It's the fact that the pope is deliberately spreading lies about condoms creating an air of confusion about them.
If he'd shut up then there would be little confusion.
This confusion is costing people their lives!!:mad:

What lies? Sometimes I really think people need to look beyond the obvious. Nobody is arguing that if your going to go out and have multiple partners than yes, your chances of contracting AIDS gets higher, obviously using a condom can help combat this free choice you've made.........BUT...

I'll mention this again, and see if it's as earth shattering and shocking and worth getting angry about as the Popes 'comment' was......

140 MILLION faulty condoms!! Now tell me it's fine to tell African people all they need to do is go get their condom and they'll be fine!

The 'outrage' yet again is hot air fuelled and populist awl nonsense imo.

:mad::)

Flamed Diving

Jakkass wrote: »

Defeats the point then kind of.

If the African people won't listen to the Pope on marital fidelity, why would they listen to the Pope on not wearing condoms?

Surely you can see the point.

Wow, way to miss the point Jakky! They want to have sex, and they don't want to have AIDS. So, give them condoms and they can have sex, with less AIDS.

They clearly want sex enough to not listen to the popes authority, but he seems to hold enough authority to make them stop using condoms.

Double whammy.

For anyone who has a drop of uninhibited sexual desire in their body, this is simple stuff. Only the sexually repressed could fail to get it.

Dades

Jakkass wrote: »

It's almost as if you are blaming the Pope for people going against what he actually said, that's absurd to say the very least.

Because of what he says his minions on the continent are promoting unlikely abstinence over proven protection.

lmaopml

I'd just like to repeat:

140 MILLION faulty condoms! Please try to even fathom the damage in realistic terms this could do? In Africa? Life.....and death....is not as simple as you would have it be. The truth is sometimes stranger than fiction...!

If anybody cares about the people of Africa, or is even pretending to care, let them please tell me who is right to tell Africans that condoms will protect them? Tell me they are 'the' answer? They are not, not there.....no way!

I sometimes wonder is this moreso about winning a debate than actual concern, truely I do! Actual concern would be refreshing! Even the statistics won't sway the the fundamental I suppose....it's a daydream believers forum!

Flamed Diving

lmaopml wrote: »

I'd just like to repeat:

140 MILLION faulty condoms! Please try to even fathom the damage in realistic terms this could do? In Africa? Life.....and death....is not as simple as you would have it be. The truth is sometimes stranger than fiction...!

If anybody cares about the people of Africa, or is even pretending to care, let them please tell me who is right to tell Africans that condoms will protect them? Tell me they are 'the' answer? They are not, not there.....no way!

I sometimes wonder is this moreso about winning a debate than actual concern, truely I do! Actual concern would be refreshing! Even the statistics won't sway the the fundamental I suppose....it's a daydream believers forum!

100 trillion working condoms! 6 trillion billion billion bottles of lube which aren't slippy!

99% of people don't believe made-up statistics.

lmaopml

That's an excuse for pure shyte and you know it!


Don't pretend concern please! It's obvious and quite apparent that your agenda is 'priority'! Your 'right'ness'! Ignores facts...

YOUR very own religion! Good luck with it...

Flamed Diving

lmaopml wrote: »

That's an excuse for pure shyte and you know it!


Don't pretend concern please! It's obvious and quite apparent that your agenda is 'priority'! Your 'right'ness'! Ignores facts...

YOUR very own religion! Good luck with it...

And a goobledee, boobledee-doo to you too!

lmaopml

That's the best reply you've given so far on this thread :eek:

Be afraid, be VERY afraid...pmls....:pac:

Turtwig

lmaopml wrote: »

I'd just like to repeat:

140 MILLION faulty condoms! Please try to even fathom the damage in realistic terms this could do? In Africa? Life.....and death....is not as simple as you would have it be. The truth is sometimes stranger than fiction...!

If anybody cares about the people of Africa, or is even pretending to care, let them please tell me who is right to tell Africans that condoms will protect them? Tell me they are 'the' answer? They are not, not there.....no way!

I sometimes wonder is this moreso about winning a debate than actual concern, truely I do! Actual concern would be refreshing! Even the statistics won't sway the the fundamental I suppose....it's a daydream believers forum!

Condoms and education ARE the answer.
Abstinence doesn't work in an environment where individuals are living in poverty and our natural instinct to secure the survival of our genes prevails more than other one. That means the more sex the better. It's when cultural evolution overtakes nature principles we get progress. Cultural evolution via condoms and education.

Also, can you please site a source for that outrageously high 140 million faulty condoms. Any company with a yield figure that high is either being sabotaged or directly fraudulent( or dispersing a trillion* condoms:)).


*This one is a joke btw.

Sam Vimes

Malty_T wrote: »

Condoms and education ARE the answer.

They're not the answer to a christian. Our only goal in Africa is to stop the spread of AIDS but a christian sees this as proof that their way is best if only people can be make to accept the truth of Jesus. They'll spread their values and if they solve the AIDS crisis while they're at it all the better

philologos

Sam Vimes wrote: »

They're not the answer to a christian. Our only goal in Africa is to stop the spread of AIDS but a christian sees this as proof that their way is best if only people can be make to accept the truth of Jesus. They'll spread their values and if they solve the AIDS crisis while they're at it all the better

Despite the fact that none of the people who have defended the Pope have invoked Jesus in the discussion at all?

Encouraging a liberal sex policy alone isn't going to stop the spread of AIDS particularly seeing as condoms have a risk of splitting or being defective. In that respect the Pope is right.

I'd personally want to see a proper end to AIDS, but I'd also want to see people remaining faithful to their wives.

Sam Vimes

Jakkass wrote: »

Despite the fact that none of the people who have defended the Pope have invoked Jesus in the discussion at all?

You don't have to specifically mention Jesus for people to know that your religious beliefs are the motivation behind your position. And I'm not saying you're doing it here but in general, it really pisses me off when christians make out that they have secular motives for their positions and try to hide the fact that their main motivation for their position is their faith

Jakkass wrote: »

Encouraging a liberal sex policy alone isn't going to stop the spread of AIDS particularly seeing as condoms have a risk of splitting or being defective. In that respect the Pope is right.

And encouraging abstinence alone isn't going to stop the spread of AIDS either because people are going to have sex whether christians want them to or not. The solution is protection and education

Jakkass wrote: »

I'd personally want to see a proper end to AIDS, but I'd also want to see people remaining faithful to their wives.

Exactly my point. I want to see an end to AIDS but I don't give a monkeys about their private lives whereas christians do, which is why condoms are not a solution for them. It wouldn't matter if they were 100% effective 100% of the time, christians still wouldn't see them as the solution because ending AIDS isn't their only goal

liamw

Jakkass wrote: »

Encouraging a liberal sex policy alone isn't going to stop the spread of AIDS particularly seeing as condoms have a risk of splitting or being defective. In that respect the Pope is right.

The Pope is blatently using the fact that condoms are not 100% effective to push his own agenda.

Jakkass wrote: »

I'd personally want to see a proper end to AIDS, but I'd also want to see people remaining faithful to their wives.

Which is more important? How can you even say those two things in the one sentence? With regards 'remaining faithful', that is totally totally irrelavant in comparison with controlling AIDS.

philologos

Sam Vimes:

What I said: wrote:

In my humble opinion, which differs from the Pope:
We should be encouraging monogamy and faithfulness, with provisional condom use until the situation improves.

Sam Vimes wrote:

And encouraging abstinence alone isn't going to stop the spread of AIDS either because people are going to have sex whether christians want them to or not. The solution is protection and education

Would you encourage education on remaining faithful to your partner if it would help in preventing AIDS (which according to research it has)?

liamw wrote:

Which is more important? How can you even say those two things in the one sentence? With regards 'remaining faithful', that is totally totally irrelavant in comparison with controlling AIDS.

Both are equally important. Not only to give a solution to AIDS, but to prevent other such crises taking place in the future. Employing sexual ethics is a way that this can be ensured.

It's not irrelevant by the by. In countries where faithfulness has been encouraged there has been more success than in countries where it hasn't. Read the articles I linked to earlier.

Mark Hamill

Jakkass wrote: »

It's not irrelevant by the by. In countries where faithfulness has been encouraged there has been more success than in countries where it hasn't. Read the articles I linked to earlier.

Did you actually read the links you gave? The problems, they say, is not that the condoms dont work, its that either there aren't nearly enough condoms and they arent being used properly (or regularly). The washington post references Thailand and Cambodia as places where enforced condom use in brothels has worked to stem the tide of HIV and then goes on to point out that the group with the actually highest degree of infection are those in the general population who are having steady relationships, as condom use in a steady relationship is seen as sign of distrust. It even points to polygamist relationships working in Uganda as long as people used the condoms. The problem, as with almost everything in life is poor education on the issue, and having a pope come out and say that condoms dont work doesn't help the matter one iota.

Sam Vimes

Jakkass wrote: »

Would you encourage education on remaining faithful to your partner if it would help in preventing AIDS (which according to research it has)?

You don't need to do research to know that if neither you or your partner have AIDS and you remain faithful then you're not going to get AIDS, it's self evident (except blood transfusions etc but that's a separate issue). AIDS is a sexually transmitted disease and everybody already knows that if you don't have sex you won't get it. People still choose to take the risk and we should help in mitigating that risk as much as possible with condoms. I see nothing to be gained from telling them something they already know. It's like telling them that if they don't drink they lower their chances of getting drunk. No sh!t

Btw, for every bit of research you can find that says abstinence only education helps I can find 5 that say the opposite. I can also point to a number of studies supporting abstinence only education that deliberately distorted facts to attempt to get their point across. These people are not objective, they have a religious agenda

Jakkass wrote: »

Both are equally important. Not only to give a solution to AIDS, but to prevent other such crises taking place in the future. Employing sexual ethics is a way that this can be ensured.

If people stopped eating fatty foods we could all but solve the obesity and heart disease crises and millions of people still smoke despite the known health risks involved. People are always going to do risky things because we're wired with a mindset of "it won't happen to me" and preaching about the wonders of avoiding sexually transmitted disease by not having sex will only ever make a marginal dent in the figures. It will never be a solution to the problem and if your plan is to promote condoms as a provisional measure until the situation improves, you will be waiting until the end of time

liamw

Jakkass wrote: »

Both are equally important. Not only to give a solution to AIDS, but to prevent other such crises taking place in the future. Employing sexual ethics is a way that this can be ensured.

It's not irrelevant by the by. In countries where faithfulness has been encouraged there has been more success than in countries where it hasn't. Read the articles I linked to earlier.

The primary goal should be to solve the AIDs problem.

Encouraging faithfulness, may or may not help to achieve the primary goal. That's really not my point. Faithfulness should only be taken into account, if and only if it helps achieve the primary goal, along with education on the topic etc.

lmaopml

Sam Vimes wrote: »

You don't need to do research to know that if neither you or your partner have AIDS and you remain faithful then you're not going to get AIDS, it's self evident (except blood transfusions etc but that's a separate issue). AIDS is a sexually transmitted disease and everybody already knows that if you don't have sex you won't get it. People still choose to take the risk and we should help in mitigating that risk as much as possible with condoms. I see nothing to be gained from telling them something they already know. It's like telling them that if they don't drink they lower their chances of getting drunk. No sh!t

SamVimes, just to clarify, the pope said "Condoms were not the answer..." He didn't say, "Condoms don't work..." BIG difference! Of course there is always a chance of either picking up a faulty condom or the condom splitting whatever......Anyway, the point is, that the Pope was commenting on the overall view that 'condoms' are the 'only' answer! I think the debate has gone into splitting hairs here over education...Education is of course part and parcel of fighting AIDS in Africa.

As for 'everybody' knowing that if you don't have sex you won't get AIDS, No, not everybody knows in Africa, and some who have AIDS even believe that by having sex with a virgin that it will cure them......It's sad, it's a mess!

Africans are free to be whatever they want at the end of the day...If they want to be Catholic and live by sexual Catholic morality then they will be providing themselves with a safe way of not getting AIDS. However, like you or I, I don't always think..."Hmm I wonder what the Pope would say about this????", about everything I do..lol.....so don't expect me to believe that all Africans will either...If they listen to him that much, then surely they wouldn't be in danger anyway, because they would be having no sex before marriage, and would be faithful to one partner........?

They are equally free to take the gamble - and absolutely NOBODY is aguing that an 'informed' gamble is the best we can hope to achieve....after that, there are only choices!

Sam Vimes

lmaopml wrote: »

SamVimes, just to clarify, the pope said "Condoms were not the answer..." He didn't say, "Condoms don't work..." BIG difference! Of course there is always a chance of either picking up a faulty condom or the condom splitting whatever......Anyway, the point is, that the Pope was commenting on the overall view that 'condoms' are the 'only' answer! I think the debate has gone into splitting hairs here over education...Education is of course part and parcel of fighting AIDS in Africa.

As for 'everybody' knowing that if you don't have sex you won't get AIDS, No, not everybody knows in Africa, and some who have AIDS even believe that by having sex with a virgin that it will cure them......It's sad, it's a mess!

What he said according to the Times and the guardian was: "[Aids] "is a tragedy that cannot be overcome by money alone, and that cannot be overcome through the distribution of condoms, which even aggravates the problems"

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article5923927.ece
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/17/pope-africa-condoms-aids

Saying that condoms are not 100% effective is one thing but saying that they aggravate the problem is quite another. No one ever said that condoms are the only answer, of course education is required to dispel myths like the idea that sex with a virgin will cure them and how to engage in safe sex but telling them not to have sex is never going to work. All the pope did was add one more myth that needs to be dispelled, that condoms aggravate the problem. I think we look at the problem differently. I see the problem being the spread of AIDS but the pope sees the problem as the Africans not following "christian values" and AIDS as an outcome of that problem. His problem is people having casual sex so of course he wouldn't see condoms as a solution. To him they're just treating the symptoms.

lmaopml wrote: »

Africans are free to be whatever they want at the end of the day...If they want to be Catholic and live by sexual Catholic morality then they will be providing themselves with a safe way of not getting AIDS. However, like you or I, I don't always think..."Hmm I wonder what the Pope would say about this????", about everything I do..lol.....so don't expect me to believe that all Africans will either...If they listen to him that much, then surely they wouldn't be in danger anyway, because they would be having no sex before marriage, and would be faithful to one partner........?

Believing that some Jewish bloke died on a cross has nothing to do with avoiding getting AIDS. What you're talking about is not "catholic morality", you're not drawing on some divine wisdom here, it's self evident that being monogamous or abstinent would stop the spread of AIDS and I don't have to read an old book of magic stories to know that but it's not practical. People should obviously be told that if they stay abstinent or monogamous they will avoid AIDS but for the vast numbers of people who will always be willing to take the risk, we should be helping them to mitigate the risk, not telling them that condoms aggravate the problem

philologos

liamw wrote: »

The primary goal should be to solve the AIDs problem.

Encouraging faithfulness, may or may not help to achieve the primary goal. That's really not my point. Faithfulness should only be taken into account, if and only if it helps achieve the primary goal, along with education on the topic etc.

I wouldn't see them as primary or secondary. I'd see both as being key:

Short term goal: Solve the AIDS pandemic
Long term goal: Ensure that people remain faithful to their partner and keep in monogamous relationships.

The long term goal will also solve the short term goal.

Sam Vimes

Jakkass wrote: »

I wouldn't see them as primary or secondary. I'd see both as being key:

Short term goal: Solve the AIDS pandemic
Long term goal: Ensure that people remain faithful to their partner and keep in monogamous relationships.

The long term goal will also solve the short term goal.

Your long term goal is none of our business and in my opinion the fact that that is the main focus of christians is hampering efforts to solve the crisis. Our goal is to solve the AIDS pandemic, nothing else, and any opinion about what values you think people should be living their lives by should be kept to yourself. A pandemic should not be used to push anyone's world view.