Unusual house alarm?

Tester46

Hi, I'm living in a new house in a rural area. The house has sash windows all over, patio doors and a regular front and back door.

The electrician has wired it for sensors on the front and back doors only (not patio doors or any of the windows). He has also wired it for IR movement sensors so that anyone approaching the staircase will set off the alarm.

The logic is that if someone wants to steal my TV, let them. If they try to come upstairs though, that puts me and my family in personal danger and so I want the alarm to sound then. Plus, I have been told in the past that a burglar can easily get around the door and window sensors, but can't avoid the movement sensors inside. I don't know if that is true?

Can anyone recommend a good system that has very good internal movement sensors? Am I crazy not to have wired all doors and windows as well?

kmick

Wire up the doors and the windows. I'd prefer to know that someone is coming up the stairs before they are coming up the stairs but thats just me.

Thoie

Tester46 wrote: »

Am I crazy not to have wired all doors and windows as well?

I totally get your reasoning with "people are more important than stuff". You might want to consider if your insurance company will see it that way if you claim for a new TV.

altor

Tester46 wrote: »

Hi, I'm living in a new house in a rural area. The house has sash windows all over, patio doors and a regular front and back door.

The electrician has wired it for sensors on the front and back doors only (not patio doors or any of the windows). He has also wired it for IR movement sensors so that anyone approaching the staircase will set off the alarm.

The logic is that if someone wants to steal my TV, let them. If they try to come upstairs though, that puts me and my family in personal danger and so I want the alarm to sound then. Plus, I have been told in the past that a burglar can easily get around the door and window sensors, but can't avoid the movement sensors inside. I don't know if that is true?

Can anyone recommend a good system that has very good internal movement sensors? Am I crazy not to have wired all doors and windows as well?

He has wired you for a trap pack, e.g front and back door with movement detectors. Sash windows are very expensive to cover as in reality you need a sensor plus a sash loop cable to cover it properly. If you wanted you could always install a hybrid system that you can put wired plus wire free components on if you had no cable where you want a sensor or even cover the patio door that has no cable.
Another thing to note is the sensor in the hall would be off at night "depending how it is set by the installer" to give you access to your keypad for setting or unsetting the alarm so another keypad upstairs or even a keyfob for setting the alarm would be good to have. You could put the motion in the hall on entry/exit but if someone did get that far they would have 30 second to get up the stairs..
The new ATS from ARITECH would be a good system to use but there are other systems that are up to the EN50131 which will do the same.

Hope this helps, any more question let me know...

fred funk }{

Sash windows are very expensive to cover as in reality you need a sensor plus a sash loop cable to cover it properly.

Thats the lazy way :P

If the house is been prewired then I run cables to the top and bottom of the sash, I drill out the sashes for flush contacts top and bottom and mount a shock sensor somewhere out of sight.

I would certainly insist on getting the windows done, what the electrician has done is just lazy and is not an adequate alarm system.

The best solution is a combination of both, shocks and open/close detectors on the windows and doors and PIR's in the common areas of the house.

You should ring a local alarm company and let them come out and specify whats needed so your electrician can wire from that spec.

altor

fred funk }{ wrote: »

Thats the lazy way :P

Thats the proper way they should be done, there is nothing lazy about it..:rolleyes:

fred funk }{ wrote: »

If the house is been prewired then I run cables to the top and bottom of the sash, I drill out the sashes for flush contacts top and bottom and mount a shock sensor somewhere out of sight.

I use a sash loop and an inertia/contact on sash windows.
Where do you put the shock on the window ?

Jnealon

I with fred on this one, sash loops look terrible. Flush contacts with a combination of glass breaks, curtain pir or an inertia out of sight.

Wiring for pirs only seems to be a country thing. If you can get him back to do it right

2011

Flush contacts with a combination of glass breaks, curtain pir or an inertia out of site.

Where would you suggest installing the inertia sensors so that they are out of sight??

altor

Jnealon wrote: »

I with fred on this one, sash loops look terrible.

They dont look terrible if installed properly :rolleyes:

Jnealon wrote: »

an inertia out of site.

Where on the sash window is out of site ?

Jnealon wrote: »

Wiring for pirs only seems to be a country thing. If you can get him back to do it right

There are many different ways a house can be wired for an alarm, you dont have to live in the country to see this..

Jnealon

They could go in beside the pulley, they could be flush mounted, if the bottom half has "bull horns" they can go on top .

2011

They could go in beside the pulley

On the frame? Would it not be knocked off when the bottom window is fully opened??

they could be flush mounted

Your sensor is about 20 to 25mm deep I guess??

If you mean near the pulley as you can see the wood is quite thin there (see above). This might not be the best idea.

if the bottom half has "bull horns" they can go on top .

Yes, but it is not really out of sight.

KoolKid

Jnealon wrote: »

I with fred on this one, sash loops look terrible. Flush contacts with a combination of glass breaks, curtain pir or an inertia out of sight.

Wiring for pirs only seems to be a country thing. If you can get him back to do it right

+1 I agree with FF also. The only place you see those loops are on 10 year+ old jobs. I would never put them on a new window.

altor

I cant understand why you are all against the idea of using sash loops on sash windows.
They are put on sash windows for a reason. If someone tries to cut the glass or break the glass the shock fitted to the sash windows solid frame will have no effect, you may as well just have a contact on the window. I have tested sash windows with the shock on the frame and they dont work..

KoolKid

altor wrote: »

I have tested sash windows with the shock on the frame and they dont work..

You may need to adjust the gross & pule settings so. I have never had any problems. The other tidy option is to install a wireless MC;)

altor

koolkid wrote: »

You may need to adjust the gross & pule settings so. I have never had any problems.

I think you misunderstood me koolkid, it has nothing to do with the gross and pulse setting on the zone..
It is because sash windows have a solid frame.

koolkid wrote: »

The other tidy option is to install a wireless MC;)

Yes, this is the neatest option.

Tester46

altor wrote: »

I think you misunderstood me koolkid, it has nothing to do with the gross and pulse setting on the zone..
It is because sash windows have a solid frame.




Yes, this is the neatest option.

Thanks, I've been watching this debate with great interest as it's my house:)! I'm not surprised that my electrician has done a lazy job, that wouldn't be out of character.

Now that everyone says I should have the doors and windows alarmed as well as the IR movement sensors, I need to think what to do. There is only wiring for the front door, back door and for a few movement sensors (and for a keypad upstairs and downstairs). The electrician has finished at the house now. Do I need to have the alarm re-wired or can I go with a combination of the wiring that's already there, plus wireless window sensors?

What's a wireless MC?

altor

Tester46 wrote: »

. Do I need to have the alarm re-wired or can I go with a combination of the wiring that's already there, plus wireless window sensors?

You should get the electrician to wire all the windows if possible as wire free components are more expensive than the wired version. If it is not then you can get a hybrid system installed, wire free sensors can be put on the windows that have no cables and the ones that are wired can use wired sensors.

Tester46 wrote: »

What's a wireless MC?

A wire free MC is a inertia shock and a contact sensor built into one.
The inertia shock picks up on an intruder trying to cut, break or force the window open.
The contact part picks up on the opening of the window.

Just to add Tester46, if you do get your electrician to wire for the alarm i would insist on having the sash loops fitted. They are made for sash windows and in my own opinion they should be used as this is the best way of protecting them.

If you need any more help, let me know..

Tester46

altor wrote: »

You should get the electrician to wire all the windows if possible as wire free components are more expensive than the wired version. If it is not then you can get a hybrid system installed, wire free sensors can be put on the windows that have no cables and the ones that are wired can use wired sensors.



A wire free MC is a inertia shock and a contact sensor built into one.
The inertia shock picks up on an intruder trying to cut, break or force the window open.
The contact part picks up on the opening of the window.

Just to add Tester46, if you do get your electrician to wire for the alarm i would insist on having the sash loops fitted. They are made for sash windows and in my own opinion they should be used as this is the best way of protecting them.

If you need any more help, let me know..

Thanks. My electrician isn't great (now we know:rolleyes:)! I would have little or no chance in getting the electrician back, and I wouldn't trust him if he did come back, so would I be better to get the alarm installer to do the wiring of the windows? Or maybe I could go for the hybrid system as you said.

I appreciate the hybrid system is more expensive, but I probably don't have too many options. Like I said, I live in a rural area, so a good alarm is quite important. If I was going for the wireless window sensors and everything else wired (i.e doors and movement sensors), what system would you recommend, bearing in mind your suggestion for the sash loops?

KoolKid

altor wrote: »

I think you misunderstood me koolkid, it has nothing to do with the gross and pulse setting on the zone..
It is because sash windows have a solid frame.

Maybe I did. You said you can never get sensors to work if they are on a solid frame of a sash window. I have never had problems getting sensors to work correctly in that application.
What probles were you referring to?

2011

Well Tester46 as you can see everyone seems to agree that the best protection will be provided by using inertia shock sensors on the windows!!

The electrician has wired it for sensors on the front and back doors only (not patio doors or any of the windows). He has also wired it for IR movement sensors so that anyone approaching the staircase will set off the alarm.

The logic is that if someone wants to steal my TV, let them.

The problem with this is that the intruder can gain entry to your house without setting the alarm off. If the windows have poperly installed inertia shock sensors then the alarm would sound if someone was tampering with the windows. With the alam sounding they are more lightley to stop trying to gain access to your property.

The best thing to do IMHO is to get the alarm installer to wire and connect the alarm. Some electricians will not care too much about how the alarm is wired if they are not the ones installing it! Also if there is an issue with the alarm you dont want to have the electrician blaming the alarm company and visa versa with you stuck in the middle! What is ideal is if one person takes 100% responsibility for the alarm.

If they try to come upstairs though, that puts me and my family in personal danger and so I want the alarm to sound then.

Yes, but what is happening more frequently is that houses are being broken into at all hours of the day. So it is very possible that you and/or your family may be downstairs when someone trys to break in! I am not trying to sound too alarmist, but that is what is happening.

Plus, I have been told in the past that a burglar can easily get around the door and window sensors, but can't avoid the movement sensors inside. I don't know if that is true?

If the inertia shock sensors and PIRs (movement sensors) are properly installed it is almost impossible to get around them.

Can anyone recommend a good system that has very good internal movement sensors?

The weakness with modern alarm systems (up to current standards) is more down to the way that they are installed and less to do with the make that you choose. If your HKC, Aritech, Astec, Signet etc... alarm is installed properly it should not be possible for an intruder to get around it end of story. Most of these systems can do far more than any normal person will ever require. If you get the right installer he/she will ensure that the alarm that is best suited to your house is selected and installed.

My own personal view is that if a premises looks secure (sensor lights, conspicious bellbox, sash loops etc.) that alone may be enough to deter many a casual thief. Sadly it wont deter all of them!

I would suggest that as you are in a rural area you should strongly consider installing a GSM module so that if someone cuts the phone line your alarm can still call for assistance.

Best of luck with it!!

KoolKid

Thats a very good summery 2011..

altor

koolkid wrote: »

Maybe I did. You said you can never get sensors to work if they are on a solid frame of a sash window. I have never had problems getting sensors to work correctly in that application.
What probles were you referring to?

I was referring to them working properly on sash windows. They dont provide enough protection unless fitted as intended with the sash loops.

I only have problems with other peoples work when the sensors are fitted on the frame of the sash window, not my own as i install sash loops with inertia/contacts on these windows.

altor

Tester46 wrote: »

Thanks.

Your welcome Tester46, always here to help..

Tester46 wrote: »

I appreciate the hybrid system is more expensive, but I probably don't have too many options. Like I said, I live in a rural area, so a good alarm is quite important. If I was going for the wireless window sensors and everything else wired (i.e doors and movement sensors), what system would you recommend, bearing in mind your suggestion for the sash loops?

There are alot of good hybrid systems that you could use. If you cant get the electrician to cable for the extra windows then wire free inertia/contacts will work and you wont need the sash loops on the sash windows.

altor

I agree with koolkid, excellent summary 2011

Jnealon

Reading back through the post it seems that it’s 3-1 against the sash loops and judging from what has been said they have had there day along with window foil etc.
The best way to describe a sash loop to anybody who is unfamiliar with them is that they resemble a telephone cord with one end attached to a jb on the frame and the other attached to a surface mount shock sensor on the window. While this solution works well it is very unsightly.
My preferred solution is to fit flush contacts on the top and bottom opening and depending on the size of the window one or two flush vibration sensors. The best way to describe a flush vibration sensor ,to those that don’t know what a flush vibration sensor looks like, is that it looks very similar to a flush contact except a little fatter and once installed is practically invisible.

To go back to what the OP said before we went off topic I think at this stage he would be better off with a hybrid system like the Signet. This will allow him to have wired PIRs and wireless sensors on the windows without the need to get his electrician back

Hope this helps clear up a few things

altor

Jnealon wrote: »

inertia out of sight.

Jnealon wrote: »

once installed is practically invisible

So not out of sight as you suggested.

Jnealon wrote: »

While this solution works well

Good to see we agree on something.

2011

Reading back through the post it seems that it’s 3-1 against the sash loops and judging from what has been said they have had there day along with window foil etc.

from a security point of view I have yet to see something better than the sash loops. This is because they are fitted directly to the sliding frame that holds the glass.

The best way to describe a flush vibration sensor ,to those that don’t know what a flush vibration sensor looks like, is that it looks very similar to a flush contact except a little fatter and once installed is practically invisible.

I have never seen these, they sound interesting. Do you have dimensions? Do you have a link? Where (on my beautiful drawing in earlier post:D) would you intend to fit them?

Thanks.