How the government will save one billion per year relatively painlessly...

dresden8

jimmmy wrote: »

People would still have up to € 30,000 to € 50,000 per annum to have as their public service pension :ar.

I agree with jimmmy, I'd take that amount.

Thanks jimbo.

NewDubliner

jimmmy wrote: »

We all know the EU has directed our govt to cut expenditure by 4 billion this year and another 4 billion next year. Where can savings be made ?

So your brilliant idea is reneging on agreements?

So, how about we don't pay interest on the national debt? Or we take back the 7bn we gave to the banks? Or maybe, slash all payments made to the private sector for consultancy, services, goods, rents, by 50%?

After all, they're just paper contracts & you don't want pay what was agreed. I suppose that's how people make money in the private sector, stiff your suppliers and employees? Then, go form another company?

So, that's all right then.

And the 'painless' bit of your modest proposal - that's great craic entirely, nobody loses, it's a win-win?

Rob67

Jeez, it's a real 'thanks-fest' in here! Jimmmy thanks Irishbob, who thanks Jimmmy, who thanks Irishbob, who thanks OMD and Fred 83 and I think Stark thanked someone too....

Let me guess, this is a secret convocation of the Irish Gratitude Society, isn't it? No? International Backslappers Association? I know! Is it the annual (now weekly) Association of Society's Smugs, Hopeless Observers, and Large Ego's meeting?

In jest,

Rob67:D:D:D

dresden8

Rob67 wrote: »

In jest,

Only half.

Rob67

dresden8 wrote: »

I agree with jimmmy, I'd take that amount.

Thanks jimbo.

I would love my pension to be that much!! I'd never have to work again!!!

97i9y3941

its the golden goose the gov is,they afraid to let go people like they would in a public sector in fear of been sued because of this im entitled to it or i signed up for stuff,so the pensioner or person drawing the dole will get cut instead to make up for it,even if you are let go,like the instance of fas you get a lovely golden handshake to feck off...

S.L.F

Fred83 wrote: »

its the golden goose the gov is,they afraid to let go people like they would in a public sector in fear of been sued because of this im entitled to it or i signed up for stuff,so the pensioner or person drawing the dole will get cut instead to make up for it,even if you are let go,like the instance of fas you get a lovely golden handshake to feck off...

You of course can prove all this

97i9y3941

Rob67 wrote: »

Jeez, it's a real 'thanks-fest' in here! Jimmmy thanks Irishbob, who thanks Jimmmy, who thanks Irishbob, who thanks OMD and Fred 83 and I think Stark thanked someone too....

lol,we could tour as the 4 angry men like what matt cooper did with shane ross lol!

jimmmy

Rob67 wrote: »

I would love my pension to be that much!! I'd never have to work again!!!

We would all love to have public service lump sum tax free windfalls when we retire, and a public service pension after that. The point is, the country is borrowing 25 billion a year, and it cannot afford it. The pension pots of many retired public servants is worth over a million euro...this is unsustainable.

mickos

jimmmy wrote: »

The answer, of course, is in the area of lump-sum "gratuity" payments to retiring employees. Each public servant is entitled to a lump sum tax-free payment of 18 months salary , on retirement at completion of service.

My Father, a lowly private sector worker, would have recieved a similiar payment on retirement. A payment his employer was more than happy to pay, considering his many years of loyal service.
Honestly I don't see your problem with this jimmmy. I don't have a problem with anybody being rewarded for their loyalty and would appreciate a similiar payment should I ever reach retirement age.
I'm honestly looking forward to the upcoming budget, to see what Lenihan does come up with because it surely can't be as hairbrained as some posters here come up with.

jimmmy

mickos wrote: »

My Father, a lowly private sector worker, would have recieved a similiar payment on retirement.

A payment of 18 months salary tax free ? Good for him, and good for his employer. I can assure you the vast majority of people in the private sector do not get 18 months wages tax free from their employer ( if they are lucky enough to have one ) when they retire.

mickos wrote: »

A payment his employer was more than happy to pay, considering his many years of loyal service.

A gold watch was not good enough ?
If a private sector employer can afford to give it, fine, it does not come out of my pocket. Public sector wages and pensions do though, and our childrens + grandchildren will have to fork out some of the borrowings on them too, plus interest.;)

mickos wrote: »

Honestly I don't see your problem with this jimmmy. I don't have a problem with anybody being rewarded for their loyalty and would appreciate a similiar payment should I ever reach retirement age.

We all would but the country cannot afford the billion a year it is costing in extra borrowings. Get real.

meditraitor

mickos wrote: »

My Father, a lowly private sector worker, would have recieved a similiar payment on retirement. A payment his employer was more than happy to pay, considering his many years of loyal service.
Honestly I don't see your problem with this jimmmy. I don't have a problem with anybody being rewarded for their loyalty and would appreciate a similiar payment should I ever reach retirement age.
I'm honestly looking forward to the upcoming budget, to see what Lenihan does come up with because it surely can't be as hairbrained as some posters here come up with.

Bank Manager?

mickos

meditraitor wrote: »

Bank Manager?

I wish:D

jimmmy

mickos wrote: »

I wish:D

Not many of the 1,800,000 people in the private sector get 18 months wages tax free from their employer ( if they are lucky enough to have one ) when they retire, as well as 50% of finishing salary as pension;)

meditraitor

jimmmy wrote: »

Not many of the 1,800,000 people in the private sector get 18 months wages tax free from their employer ( if they are lucky enough to have one ) when they retire, as well as 50% of finishing salary as pension;)

I dont know of anyone!

Any one else know anybody from the private sector (except bank execs) who get this?

Riskymove

jimmmy wrote: »

Not many of the 1,800,000 people in the private sector get 18 months wages tax free from their employer ( if they are lucky enough to have one ) when they retire, as well as 50% of finishing salary as pension;)

but some do

indeed some get better

Dannyboy83

jimmmy wrote: »

We would all love to have public service lump sum tax free windfalls when we retire, and a public service pension after that. The point is, the country is borrowing 25 billion a year, and it cannot afford it. The pension pots of many retired public servants is worth over a million euro...this is unsustainable.

I always wondered why the uptake on Maths/Science/Engineering was had become so low compared to other countries. Now that I've seen the reality of the teachers salaries/pensions, its not really surprising anymore!

I got 445 in the leaving in 2001, and I had only about 20/30 points to spare to do Comp Sci in UCC, the uptake was huge, it was about 425.
Now you can do computers for about 200 points, nobody wants to do it.

Its quite common to hear of someone making the cross from science or engineering to teaching, very rare to hear the reverse tho.

But I wouldn't blame the teachers. This is Fianna Fail's fault.

Obviously they were feeding the property pyramid.
By grossly overpaying teachers who are locked into the country and cannot really emigrate, you are giving them the golden handcuffs and inflating the property bubble even more.

Fianna Fail are guilty as sin here.
I'd say if you took a comparison of the percentage of public servants who own their own home, compared to private sector employees who own their own home, the statistics would back that up.

Now that the property pyramid has collapsed, they simply discard the teachers, like a dirty, smelly w@nk sock.

It's quite disgusting really from the teacher's point of view, even tho there is no alternative.
Fianna Fail are the worst thing to ever happen to this country.

Rob67

jimmmy wrote: »

We all know the EU has directed our govt to cut expenditure by 4 billion this year and another 4 billion next year. Where can savings be made ?

The answer, of course, is in the area of lump-sum "gratuity" payments to retiring employees. Each public servant is entitled to a lump sum tax-free payment of 18 months salary , on retirement at completion of service. This is in addition to the pension of 50% of finishing salary, index linked.
The country cannot afford to give this lump sum tax free payment anymore. During the good times it was often nicknamed by auctioneers as the " cheque for offsprings property ". A person who worked in an auctioneers office confirmed in their experience, on this very board, that most of the people who bought holiday homes abroad were public servants, and specifically teachers. It is simply not needed. Most retiring public servants have their kids reared and educated, and their mortgages cleared. Its not that much more expensive to shop in Lidl south of the border compared to the North or Germany. Its absurd to be giving them tax free lump sums of 90 and 100 grand, and often more. To put things in context, a fine apartment in some parts of Ireland can be bought for well less than 18 months average ( never mind finishing grade ) public service salary.

The savings to the government ; if 10,000 people retire each year with a tax free lump sum of, for the sake of argument, ninety grand, that adds up to a 0.9 billion cost to the government each year. If there is a cap on the pensions the government pays out as well, of say 40 or 50 k a year, then savings of a billion a year can easily be made for the exchequer. To put things in context, average industrial wage in the worlds superpower economy, and a country where Irish people have traditionally gone to in search of well paid employment, the USA, is 41,000 dollars per year, approx 27,500 euro per year. If American workers can survive on 27,500 per year and raise their families, surely retired public servants should be able to live on 40,000 or 50,000 a year, without a lump sum payment ?

And here, we have an example of the phenomenon known as; 'Jimmmy's real fact' also known as 'Jimmy's generalisations'

I'd love to know as to where you get the idea as this plan of yours as being 'painless'? Maybe not for you, but for some retiring Public Servants it may not be, especially those at the lower spectrum of earnings.

So now we are all being led to believe that every Public Servant receives a pension in excess of €50K? Not forgetting your supposition that every Public Servant receives a gratuity in excess of €90k?

In an ideal world, such cuts would not be desirable of course, but the country cannot continue borrowing as much as it does, and lower paid public servants starting off often have kids, mortgages etc

[/QUOTE]

'The following is to be taken totally tongue in cheek and should not be construed as a true reflection of the original authors statement and is to be considered a pointer as to how some statements/ opinions can be taken out of context'

Now to add some hyperbole to the mix; What? Do you want such Public Servants to stop such nefarious activities? My God man, does your distaste for all things Public Service know no bounds? What do you want now, mandatory sterilisation of all young Public Servants? No Public Servant is to be permitted to take out a mortgage?

I am only joking of course, I know you would never propose such draconian measures!

I'm sorry Jimmmy, in real life you may be really nice guy (and I hope you are), but I really cannot take you seriously any more.

jimmmy

meditraitor wrote: »

I dont know of anyone!

Any one else know anybody from the private sector (except bank execs) who get this?

Riskymove knows someone who he thinks does:D

Riskymove

jimmmy wrote: »

Riskymove knows someone who he thinks does:D

Society of Actuaries in ireland:
232,000 people are in funded defined benefit schemes or 33% of those in an occupational pensions scheme

banks are the obvious one

Many large firms did too (e.g. Guiness)

many companies changed over time for new entrants but still have scheme for current members

I fully expect a move on new entrants in public service in near future

jimmmy

Riskymove wrote: »

banks are the obvious one

Many large firms did too (e.g. Guiness)

Do you have a link for that 232,000 people you mention. What percentage of these 232 thousand people from almost 2 million in the private sector, have the same generous pension as that found in the public sector ? Does the 232,000 figure include places like RTE....as ask most private sector workers and few get their employer to give them 18 months tax free salary on retirement, as well as 50% of finishing salary as pension, like the public sector do.

Riskymove

jimmmy wrote: »

..as ask most private sector workers and few get their employer to give them 18 months tax free salary on retirement, as well as 50% of finishing salary as pension, like the public sector do.

I am aware that most private sector workers dont get a defined pension contribution and never said otherwise

but some do

the report only mentions the overall figure so i assume you'll just take a psoition that suits you as usual on that

a defined contribution scheme is generally 50% of salary and a lump sum gratutity...you can argue all you like about which is better or whatever

but the basic point is that there are such schemes in the private sector

craichoe

Legally I don't think they can change the conditions of the Pensions as the PS workers entered into a contract with the Government.

However they could apply tax to the amount paid out.

jimmycrackcorm

Rob67 wrote: »

I'd love to know as to where you get the idea as this plan of yours as being 'painless'? Maybe not for you, but for some retiring Public Servants it may not be, especially those at the lower spectrum of earnings.

It's painless because the lump sum payment is a future bonus and you don't get something taken away that you had already (other than an expectation). A Retiree might be dreaming of using it to go on a world cruise, buy a new car etc but that's not the same as if you had it already.

jimmmy

craichoe wrote: »

Legally I don't think they can change the conditions of the Pensions as the PS workers entered into a contract with the Government.

Then change the law. Or tax windfall lump sums at 95%. There are public servants retiring now , who have kids reared and mortgage paid off, who are getting tax-free lump sums from the govt ( ie you and me ) of hundreds of thousands. They never expected this in their wildest dreams when they joined the public service / entered in to the govt contract. Many other peoples pensions are decimated, why are retired public servants recession proof ?

craichoe

jimmmy wrote: »

Then change the law. Or tax windfall lump sums at 95%. There are public servants retiring now , who have kids reared and mortgage paid off, who are getting tax-free lump sums from the govt ( ie you and me ) of hundreds of thousands. They never expected this in their wildest dreams when they joined the public service / entered in to the govt contract. Many other peoples pensions are decimated, why are retired public servants recession proof ?

To what ?

Contracts made with PS workers are no longer binding and this applies retrospecively to all previous agreements. Do you then try to claw back the money already paid out ?

They would have the government up in a European Court so fast their ass wouldn't touch the floor.

Put it this way, if you had a contract with your employer that they would pay you X amount under Y condition and you fulfilled Y condition, but then the employer turned around and said they were changing the conditions because they were cutting costs, would you accept it ?

Change to an contract requires agreement from both sides.

jimmmy

craichoe wrote: »

Put it this way, if you had a contract with your employer that they would pay you X amount under Y condition and you fulfilled Y condition, but then the employer turned around and said they were changing the conditions because they were cutting costs, would you accept it ?

That has happened countless times. An employer goes bust / cannot afford its obligations / promises.

There are Gardai retiring now, for example, aged only fifty with a pension pot worth 1,300,000. These same Gardai, not the sharpest knioves in the drawer by any means before they joined the Gardai, never dreamt in their wildest dreamers when they left school in the late seventies that they would be able to retire in 09 with a pension pot worth 1.3 million.
Cut the public service gravy train. It has got out of hand and the country cannot afford it.

NewDubliner

jimmmy wrote: »

Then change the law.

You mean allpw the government to break any contract it no longer wishes to honour?

Think of all the money we could save by not paying contractors and suppliers or by slashing the agreed amounts by 50%, I think this time you're on to something. Have you considered running for election?

BrownianMotion

A public sector worker's lump sum is based on years already worked. If you cut the lump sum now it would be the equivalent of the government saying we're going to up the tax rate to 25%, you now owe us back-tax for the last 10 years you paid at 20%.

I'm a private sector worker and I do agree that the pension for public sector workers is excessive after they pass the 55/60k salary mark but as previous posters have said, a contract is a contract, you can't just rip it up. The rules should be changed for all workers from now on but pension entitlements already accrued can't be touched, regardless of how unfair they are perceived to be. (see rody molloy)

parsi

jimmmy wrote: »

Its a lot more than most people in the private sector get to live on, especially as many shares collapsed last year " in one foul swoop " .

They had no problem when their shares were ballooning through the roof did they ?

I heard of a few shopkeepers who bough tranches of shares in cash every month . This was obviously nice handy under-the-counter cash that never was sniffed out by the Revenue.

Another way we could save money is to go and strip every developer of all his assets and his wifes assets and his kids assets and check their offshore bank accounts very closely.