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Schools to close on 24th November
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my wife is being made redundant, after ten years with the same company. the 24th of november is her last day.
feck the teachers. feck the lot of them.
explain to me in one sentence how a pay cut reduces the quality of teaching our children will get?
it should increase the quality of education as the money saved could be used to improove facilities and lower class sizes , this past decade beit with education or health , all expendeture has gone on wages , had our teachers and nurses not been the highest paid in the eu , thier would have been plenty of money for beds and blackboards , malfunded not underfunded0 -
it should increase the quality of education as the money saved could be used to improove facilities and lower class sizes , this past decade beit with education or health , all expendeture has gone on wages , had our teachers and nurses not been the highest paid in the eu , thier would have been plenty of money for beds and blackboards , malfunded not underfunded
spot on. i'm all for quality education, but that's not the same as high wages for teachers. my wife would love to be just contemplating a 10% or 6% or whatever % paycut. i'm amazed at the audacity of the teachers.0 -
Ok so Churchill didn't say it, it's still a good quote. And if you're going to lecture me on the use of it you should also note that Guizot's quote was "Not to be a republican at 20 is proof of want of heart; to be one at 30 is proof of want of head"Apart from Churchill never having said that (despite the number of times you may have heard it - it's a François Guizot quote by the way, not Churchill and there's no evidence of Churchill having said it or the version that came before it), he was a Conservative at 24 and a Liberal from 30 to 50 (now read the quote again). I softly suggest using real quotes that don't fail their own recursive test. Or not using quotes and instead using some first principles argument, of which I'm a particular fan.0 -
Good point, if only it were true. When i do get the pay cut, i would love to think that the money would go back into education and health, but do you honestly think it will? Look at who is in charge. They had money, think you are being a bit deluded saying it went into wages alone. Look around you, they are still the ones being protected, and better still, they still are cause Cowen has created this huge divide between sectors, so as to distract ourselves from the ill managed monies we had and the lavish life our leading politicians are still living.it should increase the quality of education as the money saved could be used to improove facilities and lower class sizes , this past decade beit with education or health , all expendeture has gone on wages , had our teachers and nurses not been the highest paid in the eu , thier would have been plenty of money for beds and blackboards , malfunded not underfunded
Look, whatever way we look at this, we are gonna get cut, no one can deny it at this point. Still think its unfair for non perm. teachers, but whatever, cut me, at this stage i am past worrying. If i don't have a job in June, at least i will know that i don't have to take the batterings from the private sector, who are obviously the only ones taking a hit.:rolleyes:
Give it 5 yrs. See where we are then. Will health and education be reformed? Not likely.0 -
Socondary teachers are compelled to work a 22 hour week.
They get 2 weeks off at christmas. 12 weeks off in summer. 1 week off in Haloween and 1 (or is it 2?) weeks off in Easter.
So by my count they get at least 16 weeks off during the year.
Normally workers get 4 weeks off.
So teachers work 12 weeks less a year.
Average earnings €60,000.
52 weeks - 12 weeks (lets leave the 4 weeks statutory out of it) = 40 weeks.
€60,000/40 weeks = €1,500 per week / 22 hours = €68.1 per hour.
Segaboy, if its so great, with such cushy working conditions and pay, then why arent you doing it??
im my experience, many of my friends working in the private sector, wouldnt have lowered themselves to work as a teacher, yet now, its suddenly turned to resentment as regards of benefits.
you cant condemn people for the job that they choose. im not condemning the salaries of solicitors/doctors/accountants/auctioneers/community development workers etc earning more than teachers, cause thats not the job i choose to do.
why isnt there such a commotion about the bloated salaries of some university lecturers, some of which are earning more than Harvard professors??? ....they are also going on strike refusing to take a paycut!0 -
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Segaboy, if its so great, with such cushy working conditions and pay, then why arent you doing it??
im my experience, many of my friends working in the private sector, wouldnt have lowered themselves to work as a teacher, yet now, its suddenly turned to resentment as regards of benefits.
you cant condemn people for the job that they choose. im not condemning the salaries of solicitors/doctors/accountants/auctioneers/community development workers etc earning more than teachers, cause thats not the job i choose to do.
why isnt there such a commotion about the bloated salaries of some university lecturers, some of which are earning more than Harvard professors??? ....they are also going on strike refusing to take a paycut!
I am not condemning your profession, the salaries through out the public sector are far too high and need to be lowered. This is for the greater good of our economy and people here (including myself) have decided to focus on the teachers as you guys just voted for strike action.
If you must know I have looked into becoming a teacher and have asked the teaching council if my degree was acceptable-however with the current labour market I don't see the point in changing career directions to a jobless avenue. I would love to teach science but with the payroll having to be reduced it is not an option for the Department to hire anyone else. Simply put, reduce payroll and maybe then more teachers can be hired. Don't reduce payroll, all new teachers remain unemployed.
If the public sector pay bill (among other things) is not addressed Ireland will slip deeper into recession and we will all be paying back for Government loans over a longer period of time thus causing even more pressure on both the tax payer and general economic activity for a longer period of time.
I was simply highlighting the overinflated wages teachers earn, same could be said for Gardaí, Army Officers, Nurses, Civil Servants etc etc. But this thread is specific to the teachers strike.
Thanks.0 -
you may love your job but many people with degrees and qualifications and had to "suffer college" (give me a break), are getting paid far less than the average national school teacher in this country, its not your fault you are overpaid but please will all ye teachers out there stop believing you are actually worth these over inflated salaries compared with the rest of Europe - in general teachers get paid about 40% more than their counterparts in the UK - but the cost of living is not 40% higher over here.
A lot of public servants are overpaid as a result of the economic disaster of benchmarking - you do a good job but you are overpaid, get used to the idea that even with a 10% cut you will still be overpaid by an international standards
In any event the government is your employer it they have not money and can't pay ye the rates you enjoy now what are you going to do exactly if they cut your wages - Write a strongly worded post on Boards.ie?
I never said I had to "suffer college", your quotation marks imply that I did. My point was that I chose to go to college and enter into this profession and I expect to be paid as a professional. Yes, by comparison, we are overpaid, but I would hardly use the British model as an example of a brilliant education system.
We have already taken a 10% cut, now the government is threatening another 10%. While this may still leave us overpaid in your opinion, the bank didn't give me a mortgage based on 80% of my salary.
What exactly are we going to do?! The answer is the title of this thread.
For those who see a relationship between the salaries of teachers and the state of our schools, cop on! Do you seriously think that the govt will put our 10% back into the education system? If they did, I might support a cut.
Fairness would be raising taxes for all on higher incomes, not penalising one sector. Like I've said before, if my solicitor friend and my accountant neighbour, who earn roughly what I do, were being hit for the same as me, it would be a much easier pill to swallow.
This public vs private 'debate' suits the government down to the ground, it distracts from their incompetence in the past and hides their present cluelessness.0 -
why isnt there such a commotion about the bloated salaries of some university lecturers, some of which are earning more than Harvard professors??? ....they are also going on strike refusing to take a paycut!
Some is a very small number, but it is important to deal with this small number. There is a guy in UCD who was pulling a half mill, now "cut" by a few tens of thousands. But he was an administrator, he never stood in front of a class. He could have been replaced by 7 lecturers with 7 research assistants, who would have been a hell of a lot more useful. Whatever Jimmmy's assertions that the PS are the highest paid in the word, your average lecturer earns a good less than a Harvard professors.0 -
I'm a teacher, completely against this strike. Its ridiculous, I'm ashamed of the idiots who voted to strike.
A union is a democratic body. You had your vote. You now have two choices
1) Quit
2) accept that in a democratic body,your will will not always prevail and continue to argue your point.
I voted yes but with a heavy/mixed heart. If I had voted No I would still remain in the Union ,as it is what stands between us and the assembly line teaching they have created in the UK.0 -
Very few teachers (if Any) think we can avoid more pay cuts. The vote is putting more ammunition in our guns for negotiations . I would like to see following and Im pretty sure most of my colleagues would too
- Wasters in the Public sector as a whole made redundant. Heard last night about a Hse worker promoted to Manager. His original job was not replaced!!
- NAMA is a scandal and all trade unions bar the IBOA are opposed. It must be reconfigured so that bond holders take more of a knock
- Top Public sector salaries drastically reduced
- Windfall tax on those who made a fortune on Development land or selling cardboard box apartments during boom. Im well aware its a bad precedent to tax (again) retrospectively) but Im told we are in a crisis and the Brits did with Water/electricity companies 1990s
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Perhaps if all the dosh wasn't spent on wages they could do as they do in the UK and introduce tight controls (using ID cards/swipe tags) on truancy and have dedicated truancy squads asking questions of the parents of the kids with the OTT absenteeism.Badboy1977 wrote: »Im sorry for parents but any chance those of you(and there are many) stop making nonsense excuses for not sending your kids to school when it is open! Irish Mothers send/keep their young home too regularly.
Anyway, the reality now is that even with pay cuts, not one penny extra can be spent on the schools themselves because these pay cuts are just to stem the flow of blood from the exchequer-
We are borrowing €25 BILLION a year at the moment. Can the public sector read? €25 billion quid. It's completely unsustainable and the only way to sort it is to cut wages across the board.0 -
Katiex I'm backing you up here. I'm the child of a primary school teacher.
Everyone thinks they can teach because we've all been to school.Not that easy folks. All the complaining parents do during the school holidays, because kids are "bored".....imagine being stuck in a room with 30 of your 5 year old every day. Just think about that for a minute.One getting sick.One has stomach pains.One's crying because the boy beside her took her pencil.One has to go the loo, and can't open his school trousers. 2 are crawling around under the tables and won't stay in their seats.2 boys (with anger issues) are shouting in the corner.One is trying to swallow her pencil parer.2 are in front of your desk trying to tell you what happened to them in the yard.Loudly. That's not even an entire class that I've listed there.
And you're supposed to try and TEACH them something??????
So nobody asked for them. Everyone has a job to do, blah blah blah.But I can tell you that teaching is not as easy peasy as everyone likes to spout, and spending your evenings correcting 30 of the same page of sums, followed by 30 of the same "news paragraphs", followed by preparing teaching plans.......not the best.But it's part of the job.And don't even get me started on the pure crap teachers have to listen to from parents....I knew the one thing I never wanted to do was teaching, because dealing with the kids all day was one thing, but dealing with the bloody parents.....somedays it's hard to decide who's worse.
Anyway, irrelevant. All I'm saying is that yes public sector pay has to be cut, but teachers aren't the only ones striking, you know.It's very unfair to solely target them.At least you can see what they do all day. It's the civil servants that I'd wonder about - the be-suited people going in and out of offices, working part time and on term time being paid ridiculous money, with 3 or 4 people being paid to do the same job.What do they do all day, and how are they ALL necessary????
Just saying folks, - I completely agree with pay cuts and making things more efficient, but teachers are one group of a huge number that are striking. I'll also point out that teachers (primary) have ALWAYS had to pay towards their own pensions - unlike other members of the PS.0 -
Katiex I'm backing you up here. I'm the child of a primary school teacher.
Everyone thinks they can teach because we've all been to school.Not that easy folks. All the complaining parents do during the school holidays, because kids are "bored".....imagine being stuck in a room with 30 of your 5 year old every day. Just think about that for a minute.One getting sick.One has stomach pains.One's crying because the boy beside her took her pencil.One has to go the loo, and can't open his school trousers. 2 are crawling around under the tables and won't stay in their seats.2 boys (with anger issues) are shouting in the corner.One is trying to swallow her pencil parer.2 are in front of your desk trying to tell you what happened to them in the yard.Loudly. That's not even an entire class that I've listed there.
And you're supposed to try and TEACH them something??????
So nobody asked for them. Everyone has a job to do, blah blah blah.But I can tell you that teaching is not as easy peasy as everyone likes to spout, and spending your evenings correcting 30 of the same page of sums, followed by 30 of the same "news paragraphs", followed by preparing teaching plans.......not the best.But it's part of the job.And don't even get me started on the pure crap teachers have to listen to from parents....I knew the one thing I never wanted to do was teaching, because dealing with the kids all day was one thing, but dealing with the bloody parents.....somedays it's hard to decide who's worse.
Anyway, irrelevant. All I'm saying is that yes public sector pay has to be cut, but teachers aren't the only ones striking, you know.It's very unfair to solely target them.At least you can see what they do all day. It's the civil servants that I'd wonder about - the be-suited people going in and out of offices, working part time and on term time being paid ridiculous money, with 3 or 4 people being paid to do the same job.What do they do all day, and how are they ALL necessary????
Just saying folks, - I completely agree with pay cuts and making things more efficient, but teachers are one group of a huge number that are striking. I'll also point out that teachers (primary) have ALWAYS had to pay towards their own pensions - unlike other members of the PS.
Ok, good to see you agree with the cuts. As I said the teachers voted yesterday hence this thread.
I agree it's not an "easy" job but the hours are quite short and the pay relatively good. Glad to see another teacher with the basic common sense to know that cuts are necessary.0 -
Put back what? The reason they are cutting your salary is because the money is not there in the first place, they can't put back something that doesn't exist! At this stage of the debate surely you understand this simple fact?For those who see a relationship between the salaries of teachers and the state of our schools, cop on! Do you seriously think that the govt will put our 10% back into the education system? If they did, I might support a cut.
Already done.Fairness would be raising taxes for all on higher incomes,
Are you willing to accept the same levels of redundancies and firings among your colleagues? Until you are, quit bleating about "penalising one sector"not penalising one sector. Like I've said before, if my solicitor friend and my accountant neighbour, who earn roughly what I do, were being hit for the same as me, it would be a much easier pill to swallow.0 -
We have already taken a 10% cut, now the government is threatening another 10%. While this may still leave us overpaid in your opinion, the bank didn't give me a mortgage based on 80% of my salary.
What exactly are we going to do?! The answer is the title of this thread.
Taking out a jumbo mortgage is your own personal decision, the bank didn't put a gun to your head to sign that mortgage.
Personal expenses like this and car loans etc have nothing to do with the pay level. You over extended yourself and the country is broke. Instead of striking and sacrificing kids education for your huge mortgage, you should be glad you have a lifetime job which pays well with a generous pension when you reach retirement age.0 -
Could you elaborate on this?
Of course I can!
I don't think cutting pay will do anything but cause more teachers to retire, this will leave us with younger less experienced teachers who in my view are no where near as good as the older ones.
I also feel that this idea of cuts, is not the right way to go about fixing our economic woes. Most countries are borrowing not cutting spending. This is another issue though.
I also don't like that one sector is being targeted for these pay cuts. Also teachers have a much harder job and deserve to be paid more.
I find some of these facts being presentd, comparing the pay rates to that of the private sector are askew. The ERSI figures do not take bonuses or benefit in kind into account, they also don't compare like with like.
40% of the private sector have taken a cut, 100% of the private sector have taken a cut. Also Ireland has the 3rd smallest expenditure on public service as a percentage of GDP within OECD countries.0 -
Fairness would be raising taxes for all on higher incomes, not penalising one sector. Like I've said before, if my solicitor friend and my accountant neighbour, who earn roughly what I do, were being hit for the same as me, it would be a much easier pill to swallow.
It is well documented that the private sector has reduced their pay over the last year and a half.
Raising taxes on high earners will also probably hit teachers. But why I think the unions want this approach is that they know that private sector workers have already taken a large pay cut thus reducing their buying power. We have seen that prices have fallen by 6.6% since this time last year so goods have become cheaper due to less disposable cash floating around.
By applying a blanket tax to everyone (instead of a specific pay cut addressing the 30% gap in public v private sector worker) you are effectively reducing everyone's wage. The private sector worker who has already taken a hit will get hit again and the public sector worker will also take a reduction. Thus even less spending power. This will cause prices of goods to fall even further.
However, this is the important bit, even though the public sector worker also has less disposable cash they still retain an increased level of buying power because they haven't taken a pay cut to their gross pay unlike their private sector counterpart (who relies on the free market system), and the reduced take home pay due to increased tax is applied to both groups so as prices in the general economy fall the public sector worker still has an advantage.
Of course the fair thing to do would be (in the spirit of benchmarking) to compare public and private sector wages and bench mark down accordingly. Benchmarking has been rising wages in the public sector to private sector levels (and arguably beyond) during the good times, when prices fall why can't it go the opposite way?0 -
Of course I can!
I don't think cutting pay will do anything but cause more teachers to retire, this will leave us with younger less experienced teachers who in my view are no where near as good as the older ones.
I also feel that this idea of cuts, is not the right way to go about fixing our economic woes. Most countries are borrowing not cutting spending. This is another issue though.
We are borrowing-€450 million a week. When you have an overinflated economy (such as ours) high prices hurt our competitiveness and exports. By borrowing even further you are only keeping everything high (wages, goods, land, services etc.) thus damaging our exports even further. Borrowing got us into this (see building boom and easy credit) and borrowing even more is NOT going to get us out of it, all it will do is prolong the recession and mean future generations will have to pay even higher taxes to pay back out debts.I also don't like that one sector is being targeted for these pay cuts. Also teachers have a much harder job and deserve to be paid more.
The whole public sector is being targeted, not just teachers.I find some of these facts being presentd, comparing the pay rates to that of the private sector are askew. The ERSI figures do not take bonuses or benefit in kind into account, they also don't compare like with like.
The public sector has received a non-performance related bonus for years. Plenty of people here who work in the private sector have admitted to never once receiving a bonus.40% of the private sector have taken a cut, 100% of the private sector have taken a cut. Also Ireland has the 3rd smallest expenditure on public service as a percentage of GDP within OECD countries.
I don't understand tbh. If you mean 100% of the public sector have taken a cut you are obviously not taking into account the relatively non existant level of job loses when compared to the private sector. Private sector pensions have also been almost wiped clean while the public sector still enjoys the best most secure pensions in the country which they pay relatively little for.0 -
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Perhaps if all the dosh wasn't spent on wages they could do as they do in the UK and introduce tight controls (using ID cards/swipe tags) on truancy and have dedicated truancy squads asking questions of the parents of the kids with the OTT absenteeism.
Anyway, the reality now is that even with pay cuts, not one penny extra can be spent on the schools themselves because these pay cuts are just to stem the flow of blood from the exchequer-
We are borrowing €25 BILLION a year at the moment. Can the public sector read? €25 billion quid. It's completely unsustainable and the only way to sort it is to cut wages across the board.
If your overall education expenditure is one of the lowest in Europe then wages will consist of an inordinate proportion. Its really a laughable argument that the system is underfunded due to teacher Pay. It was always underfunded from time immemorial . Look up the word subsidiarity in an Education history book-oh forgot you just make all of this up off the top of your head!
Also: read my posts-I never mentioned truancy talking about Irish parents propensity to make excuses for poor attendance for their offspring.0 -
40% of the private sector have taken a cut, 100% of the private sector have taken a cut.
Actually 26% of the private sector have had a pay cut
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2009/1113/1224258725062.htmlIf you mean 100% of the public sector have taken a cut you are obviously not taking into account the relatively non existant level of job loses when compared to the private sector.
Many private sector services no longer have any demand, from builders to flim flam men of all sorts. Given that this thread is ranting over schools being closed for just one day, it is clear that the services of the public sector remain in demand. Are you suggesting putting teachers on a 3 day week to even things up?0 -
Actually 26% of the private sector have had a pay cut
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2009/1113/1224258725062.html
Many private sector services no longer have any demand, from builders to flim flam men of all sorts. Given that this thread is ranting over schools being closed for just one day, it is clear that the services of the public sector remain in demand. Are you suggesting putting teachers on a 3 day week to even things up?
No, where exactly did I say that? This thread is much more than schools being closed for one day-it has a lot to do with reforming the payroll which is essentially the main issue here.0 -
Put back what? The reason they are cutting your salary is because the money is not there in the first place, they can't put back something that doesn't exist! At this stage of the debate surely you understand this simple fact?
Are you willing to accept the same levels of redundancies and firings among your colleagues? Until you are, quit bleating about "penalising one sector"
I was referring to the fact that some people seem to think that our salaries are the reason that the education system has been underfunded for the last few years, even during the good times.
Do you seriously think that no teacher has lost his/her job? Do you not realise the effects of cutting the pupil-teacher ratio, cutting special needs, cutting English as an alternative language and the cap of PLC places? Each cut equals job-losses and a poorer education system.Taking out a jumbo mortgage is your own personal decision, the bank didn't put a gun to your head to sign that mortgage.
Personal expenses like this and car loans etc have nothing to do with the pay level. You over extended yourself and the country is broke. Instead of striking and sacrificing kids education for your huge mortgage, you should be glad you have a lifetime job which pays well with a generous pension when you reach retirement age.
A jumbo mortgage?????!!!!! Don't make me laugh. I'm not living in Dublin. When I went looking for the loan, 4 of the big banks more or less laughed in my face, looking at the multiples of my salary and the house prices. If one bank allowed me to 'overextend' myself, I hardly think that public servants have the monopoly on that one or are responsible for the country being broke.
I don't have a lifetime job, you have no idea about the education sector of you think every teacher has a lifetime job! Permanency is a dream in today's climate and has been for the last 3/4 years.0 -
I also feel that this idea of cuts, is not the right way to go about fixing our economic woes. Most countries are borrowing not cutting spending. This is another issue though.
We are borrowing. Massively. The €4bn of proposed cuts is only part of the deal. We will also borrow something like €16bn next year.I also don't like that one sector is being targeted for these pay cuts.
What is this comparison of sectors all about? The current account deficit is about funding our public services. The deficit is around €20bn; that's why the public service is being targeted. When a private company (banks excepted:mad:) gets into this kind of trouble, it can't look to another company to bail it out. It must cut its costs. It has no choice. Why is the public service so different?Also teachers have a much harder job and deserve to be paid more.
ffs
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When a private company (banks excepted) gets into this kind of trouble, it can't look to another company to bail it out.
If a private business was losing money and had queues of customers wanting to avail of its services it would raise its prices.0 -
I never said I had to "suffer college", your quotation marks imply that I did. My point was that I chose to go to college and enter into this profession and I expect to be paid as a professional. Yes, by comparison, we are overpaid, but I would hardly use the British model as an example of a brilliant education system.
We have already taken a 10% cut, now the government is threatening another 10%. While this may still leave us overpaid in your opinion, the bank didn't give me a mortgage based on 80% of my salary.
What exactly are we going to do?! The answer is the title of this thread.
For those who see a relationship between the salaries of teachers and the state of our schools, cop on! Do you seriously think that the govt will put our 10% back into the education system? If they did, I might support a cut.
Fairness would be raising taxes for all on higher incomes, not penalising one sector. Like I've said before, if my solicitor friend and my accountant neighbour, who earn roughly what I do, were being hit for the same as me, it would be a much easier pill to swallow.
This public vs private 'debate' suits the government down to the ground, it distracts from their incompetence in the past and hides their present cluelessness.
the top earning public servants took a 10% cut , the bottom 2% , teachers are in the middle and took around 6% , besdies , its irrelevant , public servants could have taken several cuts and still be over paid
that they have taken one is merley a statistical detail0 -
Badboy1977 wrote: »If your overall education expenditure is one of the lowest in Europe then wages will consist of an inordinate proportion. Its really a laughable argument that the system is underfunded due to teacher Pay. It was always underfunded from time immemorial . Look up the word subsidiarity in an Education history book-oh forgot you just make all of this up off the top of your head!
Also: read my posts-I never mentioned truancy talking about Irish parents propensity to make excuses for poor attendance for their offspring.
whats laughable about it , if i went out and spent all my money on a pair of wellingtons and had no money left for a rod , i could hardly say i was underfunded for going fishing , its bleeding obvious that if you over pay teachers , thier wont be as much for other areas of expendeture in education0 -
If a private business was losing money and had queues of customers wanting to avail of its services it would raise its prices.
If the private company relied on repeat business to survive and knew that its customers were paying with borrowed money and that their lenders were about to cut their line of credit, it would lower its prices. Unless it was a very short sighted company, or one that was so used to easy business in a buoyant economy it had lost touch with reality.0 -
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Look, honestly lads, if teaching is such a cushy number why didn't we all sign up be teachers? I tried it, and no thanks.
Equally, the value of 'making a stand' by striking is obviously to show that teachers won't be pushed around, so they don't become the soft target of every cut. Fair enough, but a bit ****ty for those of us who have to take a day off work to deal with it.
However, teachers and fellow travellers in the public sectors, here's the deal: the company you work for is about to go bust due to vastly decreased revenues. It can't increase revenues, so it has to reduce costs to stay afloat. Your wages are the bulk of costs. It (surely) can't reduce numbers much more than it already has, so unit cost has to come down.
Is it fun for anyone? No. Is it desirable? No.
Is it absolutely necessary? Yes.
Come run a business in the private sector, and spend every day trying to balance the books, not getting paid yourself for months on end while working 90 hours a week trying to keep things going, then finish off your week telling decent hard-working family men that they don't have a job anymore. Is that fun? No. Is that desirable? No.
Is it absolutely necessary? F**k yes.
Sorry teachers, but you need to stop behaving like kids.0
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