Schools to close on 24th November

ardmacha

if i went out and spent all my money on a pair of wellingtons and had no money left for a rod , i could hardly say i was underfunded for going fishing ,

If the total budget you had wasn't enough for a decent pair of boots and a decent rod, then you were underfunded.

Dannyboy83

Mary Harney has just admitted the public sector benchmarking was wrong, criticising the policy she herself supported since 2002.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/cowen-defies-unions-in-strike-showdown-1943545.html

Health Minister Mary Harney made an astonishing intervention in the debate yesterday when she criticised the very public-sector benchmarking process she had supported since 2002."Instead of benchmarking the public sector versus the private sector in the late 1990s, we should have all benchmarked ourselves against other countries in the EU. If we had, things would have been very different," she said.
She also criticised her Government's handling of the property collapse.
"Government should have been very questioning of the economic consensus that told us we would have a soft landing."
"There were a few out-fliers saying it wouldn't be soft, but they didn't form the consensus and we should have been more challenging."
The Taoiseach said the deflation in the economy of 6.5pc would have a bearing on the budget and the expectations of various sectors.
When there was inflation in the economy, people sought increases in wages and social welfare payments and now the reverse was happening.
"Just as people look for compensation on the way up, the principle of taking into account of how you are going to pay your bills applies in the opposite direction as well," Mr Cowen said.

I don't think the Teachers have a leg to stand on now.

segaBOY

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Mary Harney has just admitted the public sector benchmarking was wrong, criticising the policy she herself supported since 2002.



I don't think the Teachers have a leg to stand on now.

Good ol Mary Harney. As much as I agree with her that benchmarking was wrong maybe she should look in the mirror and ask herself "Is my hair really worth it? Did my hubby really deserve that FÁS salary? Can I justify spending all that money on the sweeties I ate on the Government Jet? How can I justify being a part of doubling the number staff in the HSE since 1998? Heck, was it really worth it setting up the HSE?"

Please let us know in up and coming debates Mary!

implausible

irish_bob wrote: »

the top earning public servants took a 10% cut , the bottom 2% , teachers are in the middle and took around 6% , besdies , its irrelevant , public servants could have taken several cuts and still be over paid

that they have taken one is merley a statistical detail

pension levy + health levy + income levy = roughly 10%

It may be merely a statistical detail but it goes a long way to explain why teachers (and other public servants) are so incensed at the idea of more paycuts and the perception out there that they haven't contributed so far.

westtip

NewDubliner wrote: »

It's been given to the banks and property speculators.

Those W****kers are not the entire private sector.

Dannyboy83

dan_d wrote: »

Katiex I'm backing you up here. I'm the child of a primary school teacher.

I disagree. I'm the child of a civil servant

Everyone thinks they can teach because we've all been to school.Not that easy folks.

Everyone thinks bouncers are scumbags because they've all been to nightclubs. Not that easy folks.

All the complaining parents do during the school holidays, because kids are "bored".....imagine being stuck in a room with 30 of your 5 year old every day.

All the complaining people do down the Garda Station/A+E, because scumbags are "violent".........imagine being stuck in a club with 1300 of your scumbags every day.

Just think about that for a minute.One getting sick.One has stomach pains.One's crying because the boy beside her took her pencil.One has to go the loo, and can't open his school trousers. 2 are crawling around under the tables and won't stay in their seats.2 boys (with anger issues) are shouting in the corner.One is trying to swallow her pencil parer.2 are in front of your desk trying to tell you what happened to them in the yard.Loudly. That's not even an entire class that I've listed there.
And you're supposed to try and TEACH them something??????

Just think about that for a minute. One getting sick. One feels faint. One's cring because some scumbag stole her handbag. One has pissed himself, and you're supposed to get him out of the club quickly. 2 are dancing on tables and won't sit down. 2 guys (with anger issues) are going hell for leather with a broken glass and a stool. One is trying to bang out Es behind your back. 2 are dragging you to the cloakroam, screaming at you to fix their drunken stupidness. Aggressively. That's doesn't even include the really dangerous bit at the end of the night there.
Are you supposed to try and NOT GET STABBED??????

So nobody asked for them. Everyone has a job to do, blah blah blah.But I can tell you that teaching is not as easy peasy as everyone likes to spout, and spending your evenings correcting 30 of the same page of sums, followed by 30 of the same "news paragraphs", followed by preparing teaching plans.......not the best.

So nobody asked for them. Everyone has a job to do, blah blah blah. But I can tell you that bouncing is not as easy peasy as everyone like to spout, and spending your evenings seeing the same 30 drunks, or turning away the same 30 pikeys who want to stab you, followed by the dangerous walk home and when the pikeys recongise you off duty...............not the best.

But it's part of the job.And don't even get me started on the pure crap teachers have to listen to from parents....

But it's part of the job. And don't even get me started on the pure crap bouncers have to listen to from (customers/managers/Gardai/pikeys)

I knew the one thing I never wanted to do was teaching, because dealing with the kids all day was one thing, but dealing with the bloody parents.....somedays it's hard to decide who's worse.

I knew the one thing I never wanted to do was bouncing, because dealing with the customers all day long was one thing, but dealing with the bloody pikeys/guards/having to go to court on your day off


Anyway, irrelevant.
I'm not trying to insult you, just trying to point out that teachers are not the only ones with tough jobs, and they are far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far more handsomely compensated for it. (Net pay for doorman in Cork is €12 per hour, worse if your on the higher rate of tax, pay for your own license, not guaranteed any hours)

Try going for a HIV test after a crazy Nigerian guy has bitten you and then realise you actually have to stay in the job (2nd job) in order to pay the bills. I did that for 7 years, Thank fcuk I got lucky and don't have to do that sh1t anymore. (and I didn't go to college for sh1t pay either, there was a Dot Com bubble and I had to take my pain from day 1 of graduation, just like teachers will have to take it now post Celtic Pyramid)

Honestly, I feel like teachers live on Rigel 7.
There are far worse jobs out there where you are paid far less and we all have to live on Planet Earth.

segaBOY

deemark wrote: »

pension levy + health levy + income levy = roughly 10%

It may be merely a statistical detail but it goes a long way to explain why teachers (and other public servants) are so incensed at the idea of more paycuts and the perception out there that they haven't contributed so far.

Everyone has to pay the health and income levy.

The pension levy you do pay gives you one of the most secure well paid pensions in the country at the moment.

westtip

deemark wrote: »

pension levy + health levy + income levy = roughly 10%

It may be merely a statistical detail but it goes a long way to explain why teachers (and other public servants) are so incensed at the idea of more paycuts and the perception out there that they haven't contributed so far.

they are overpaid by about 30-40% so 10% cut is only a start to get some sense compared to the rest of Europe

Teachers are overpaid and not worth the money. Do a Good job yes (most of them) Get overpaid (yes all of them)

sorry pal but the great thing about this crisis is that ye lot have all been found out....not before time.

Let me put it this way back in 1998 I worked for an SME in the Uk and got paid 40k a year plus good car and good expense account, I felt I was doing pretty well.; the guy who does the same job now in that same SME is making 58k a year plus the other perks I mentioned.

He told me recently he is in the office at 8.30 and leaves about 6. 30 and never gets to take his four weeks holiday. The compay employs about 40 people and he is the sales and makreting director - he has to delive businss to keep the business going.

He also told me he often gets up at 5.30 to take a plane from heathrow to see clients in places like Frankfurt and Munich ete and be back in the same day. He works like I did when int he same job dam hard.

Now put this in perspective and compare this character with a national school teacher here with a fe increment points and say 20 years service - on about 65k a year.

With current exchange rates they are on a similiar package to the guy I mentioned. how many teachers do you know who actually keep 40 people in a job.

It is a total joke how much teachers get paid in ireland - the good times are over, and th cuts still won't bring you down to a realistic level.

segaBOY

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I disagree. I'm the child of a civil servant



Everyone thinks bouncers are scumbags because they've all been to nightclubs. Not that easy folks.



All the complaining people do down the Garda Station/A+E, because scumbags are "violent".........imagine being stuck in a club with 1300 of your scumbags every day.



Just think about that for a minute. One getting sick. One feels faint. One's cring because some scumbag stole her handbag. One has pissed himself, and you're supposed to get him out of the club quickly. 2 are dancing on tables and won't sit down. 2 guys (with anger issues) are going hell for leather with a broken glass and a stool. One is trying to bang out Es behind your back. 2 are dragging you to the cloakroam, screaming at you to fix their drunken stupidness. Aggressively. That's doesn't even include the really dangerous bit at the end of the night there.
Are you supposed to try and NOT GET STABBED??????



So nobody asked for them. Everyone has a job to do, blah blah blah. But I can tell you that bouncing is not as easy peasy as everyone like to spout, and spending your evenings seeing the same 30 drunks, or turning away the same 30 pikeys who want to stab you, followed by the dangerous walk home and when the pikeys recongise you off duty...............not the best.


But it's part of the job. And don't even get me started on the pure crap bouncers have to listen to from (customers/managers/Gardai/pikeys)


I knew the one thing I never wanted to do was bouncing, because dealing with the customers all day long was one thing, but dealing with the bloody pikeys/guards/having to go to court on your day off


Anyway, irrelevant.
I'm not trying to insult you, just trying to point out that teachers are the only ones with tough jobs, and they are far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far more handsomely compensated for it. (Net pay for doorman in Cork is €12 per hour, worse if your on the higher rate of tax, pay for your own license, not guaranteed any hours)

Try going for a HIV test after a crazy Nigerian guy has bitten you and then realise you actually have to stay in the job (2nd job) in order to pay the bills. I did that for 7 years, Thank fcuk I got lucky and don't have to do that sh1t anymore. (and I didn't go to college for sh1t pay either, there was a Dot Com bubble and I had to take my pain from day 1 of graduation, just like teachers will have to take it now post Celtic Pyramid)

Honestly, I feel like teachers on Rigel 7.
There are far worse jobs out there where you are paid far less.

Mangins?

dresden8

segaBOY wrote: »

The pension levy you do pay gives you one of the most secure well paid pensions in the country at the moment.

The pension levy confers no pension rights. There are a lot of people paying the pension levy who will not get a pension.

You haven't been paying attention.

Dannyboy83

segaBOY wrote: »

Mangins?

LOL, numerous places, big and small. (don't want to slag any off specifically - online anyway

segaBOY

dresden8 wrote: »

The pension levy confers no pension rights. There are a lot of people paying the pension levy who will not get a pension.

You haven't been paying attention.

It does if you decide to stay in your job (at the moment you can retire once you reach 50 with the early retirement scheme).

Unfortunately plenty of those in the private sector have paid much more of their income into pensions and now have zip.

dresden8

segaBOY wrote: »

It does if you decide to stay in your job (at the moment you can retire once you reach 50 with the early retirement scheme).

Unfortunately plenty of those in the private sector have paid much more of their income into pensions and now have zip.

No it doesn't.

Temporary staff do not get to decide if they stay in the job. They will be out on their ear having paid the pension levy, but they will have no pension.

If you are going to grace us with your opinion it would be nice if you informed yourself of some facts first.

implausible

segaBOY wrote: »

Everyone has to pay the health and income levy.

The pension levy you do pay gives you one of the most secure well paid pensions in the country at the moment.

I know everyone pays the levy, it doesn't change the 10% reduction in my salary.

Back of the class on your knowledge of the pension levy; we have always paid into our pensions from day one, it's not optional. The 'pension levy' is no such thing as it is applied to non-pensionable work; it is a tax.

segaBOY

deemark wrote: »

I know everyone pays the levy, it doesn't change the 10% reduction in my salary.

Back of the class on your knowledge of the pension levy; we have always paid into our pensions from day one, it's not optional. The 'pension levy' is no such thing as it is applied to non-pensionable work; it is a tax.

My point was referring to permanent members of staff. Now that I realise that you are a temp then yes, it is hard luck on you.

Would you be in favour of foregoing the pension levy if you were given a clause to opt out of a Public Service pension when/if you are made permanent?

implausible

segaBOY wrote: »

My point was referring to permanent members of staff. Now that I realise that you are a temp then yes, it is hard luck on you. On the flip side (apologies for using a family example) my father runs his own small business. He pays PRSI on his own wage along with a higher rate of PAYE. He also pays most of the PRSI for his staff. All of this in sptie of the fact that he will never ever be entitled to the dole. Sucks huh?

I am not a temp, I'm not permanent either. I am on a year-to-year(hopefully) contract. I have still taken a 10% paycut and the pension levy is still a tax.

I know very little about self-employment, but agree that people who work for themselves getting no entitlements when times are tough is wrong.

segaBOY

deemark wrote: »

I am not a temp, I'm not permanent either. I am on a year-to-year(hopefully) contract. I have still taken a 10% paycut and the pension levy is still a tax.

I know very little about self-employment, but agree that people who work for themselves getting no entitlements when times are tough is wrong.

(Sorry edited message as thought self employment irrelevant but I agree with you on that).

I see where you're coming from. But you and everyone else in this economy has taken a cut. I think the issue is government expenditure and how to reduce it. Pay is a massive part of this.

Anyone taking a cut-be it 5% or 50% is going to feel some level of pain or sense of being hard done by. While I understand that you don't (and noone does) want to take a cut it has to be noted that wages are too high in the public sector and need to be addressed.

Best of luck in the contracts by the way. Sister in law in the same boat and it's a waiting game which causes havoc when trying to get a mortgage, I understand your situation is not as rosey as those in permanent positions. Good luck with it.

irish_bob

ardmacha wrote: »

If the total budget you had wasn't enough for a decent pair of boots and a decent rod, then you were underfunded.

if the budget wasnt good enough in the past decade ( and im not saying it wasnt ) its hardly going to be good enough during a rescession

implausible

segaBOY wrote: »

Would you be in favour of foregoing the pension levy if you were given a clause to opt out of a Public Service pension when/if you are made permanent?

No. The pension levy doesn't pay for our pension, it's a tax, nothing to do with the pension. I'm already paying into my pension via contributions at source.

This just goes to show what a good job the media/govt have done on demonising the public service, when people think we've been getting an automatic pension for nothing all along.

I know there needs to be cuts, I know the govt is running out of money, but we feel we're the scapegoats in this. We have taken cuts in two ways - in our wages and the condition of our schools.

There are too many people in the public service, but they're not definitely not in our schools and not on the frontline in our hospitals. The govt needs to look at other ways to cut. Education, Health and Social Welfare are the biggest expenses because they're the most important. In a civilised society, you expect the state to educate you, heal you if you're sick and help you out if you fall on hard times.

irish_bob

deemark wrote: »

No. The pension levy doesn't pay for our pension, it's a tax, nothing to do with the pension. I'm already paying into my pension via contributions at source.

This just goes to show what a good job the media/govt have done on demonising the public service, when people think we've been getting an automatic pension for nothing all along.

I know there needs to be cuts, I know the govt is running out of money, but we feel we're the scapegoats in this. We have taken cuts in two ways - in our wages and the condition of our schools.

There are too many people in the public service, but they're not definitely not in our schools and not on the frontline in our hospitals. The govt needs to look at other ways to cut. Education, Health and Social Welfare are the biggest expenses because they're the most important. In a civilised society, you expect the state to educate you, heal you if you're sick and help you out if you fall on hard times.

we have as twice as many nurses per head as france which is widely considered to have one of the best health services in europe so its not accurate to say we are understaffed in our hospitals

sold

deemark wrote: »

No. The pension levy doesn't pay for our pension, it's a tax, nothing to do with the pension.

What world to you live in? you are sure of a pension!, so atleast you should pay for it!!. Thousands of private sector people will NEVER have the public sector pension, its a very cushy number you have!!!. So get real and be glad you have a job for live and a guaranteed pension.

I have been paying into a private sector company pension scheme (defined contribution) and I only have 24K after 8 years!! what I put in is what get out. Your public sector pension is secure, you don't have to worry about investing and managing your pension. It really sickens me to see these public sector people cry about their pay and benefits. I would love to have the same!!!

helpmeplease

I have sympathy with young teachers with temp contracts, or teachers who take a reasonable approach to things. One or two teachers getting slaughtered by the INTO union members for opposing the strike, on this teaching forum

http://forum.educationposts.ie/viewtopic.php?id=31080

http://forum.educationposts.ie/viewtopic.php?id=31056



Some of them are really coming across as a sheltered bunch, it seems to be the young teachers taking a stand.

segaBOY

helpmeplease wrote: »

I have sympathy with young teachers with temp contracts, or teachers who take a reasonable approach to things. One or two teachers getting slaughtered by the INTO union members for opposing the strike, on this teaching forum

http://forum.educationposts.ie/viewtopic.php?id=31080

http://forum.educationposts.ie/viewtopic.php?id=31056



Some of them are really coming across as a sheltered bunch, it seems to be the young teachers taking a stand.

Have frequented that forum before. The "Posts of members , who obviously did not read the rules , are deleted . (e.g. one word topics, use of slang or sms language, etc.) " rule at the top says a lot about some members on the site tbh! Some of these guys couldn't be further from reality when it boils down to it.
Glad to see some teachers are taking a stand. At least there are some realists out there.

murphaph

Cian92 wrote: »

Ireland has the 3rd smallest expenditure on public service as a percentage of GDP within OECD countries.

That figure is heavily skewed by the fact we have virtually no military expenditure, which gobbles up huge amounts of taxpayers money in other countries (who we would be relying on to defend us in the worst case scenario).

ardmacha

That figure is heavily skewed by the fact we have virtually no military expenditure, which gobbles up huge amounts of taxpayers money in other countries

That may be, but the issue here is whether the burden of public expenditure is excessive.

Mary Harney has just admitted the public sector benchmarking was wrong.

Why don't they publish the data collected then, statements that things are excessive (or not) are presently without much evidence one way or the other.

97i9y3941

i think the only ones that are kicking up stink are the teachs near retirement and dont want their paypacket/pension touched..

uriah

#15 wrote: »

I'm a teacher, completely against this strike. Its ridiculous, I'm ashamed of the idiots who voted to strike.

Four out of every five of your colleagues are idiots??

Nothing stopping you from going to work if you feel that strongly about it.
You'll have to pass a picket but that should be no trouble to you.

And you could arrange to return to the state that part of your salary which you think you do not dederve/need.

As for worrying about having public opinion on our side - who cares? Public opinion is a fickle thing. Most members of the public are concerned only about what affects themselves and their families.


Most parents wouldn't care if their child's teacher had to stand knee-deep in water for the minimum wage as long their offspring is in school.
Waiting for or expecting parental & public support is a complete waste of time.

uriah

#15 wrote: »

I'm a teacher, completely against this strike. Its ridiculous, I'm ashamed of the idiots who voted to strike.

Four out of every five of your colleagues are idiots??

Nothing stopping you from going to work if you feel that strongly about it,
and I, for one, would defend your absolute right to do so.
You'll have to pass a picket but that should be no trouble to you.

And you could arrange to return to the state that part of your salary which you think you do not deserve/need.

As for worrying about having public opinion on our side - who cares? Public opinion is a fickle thing. Most members of the public are concerned only about what affects themselves and their families.


Most parents wouldn't care if their child's teacher had to stand knee-deep in water for the minimum wage as long their offspring is in school.
Waiting for or expecting parental & public support is a complete waste of time.

segaBOY

uriah wrote: »

As for worrying about having public opinion on our side - who cares? Public opinion is a fickle thing. Most members of the public are concerned only about what affects themselves and their families.

And most teachers only care about what affects their wallet it seems.

wolfpawnat

They are spitting out a load of girls out of Mary I every year and a lot of other colleges too, there are many of these people out of work, feck those who are too greedy out of there , and get in some people who will be happy to have the job.

I don't doubt that teaching can be very draining but it's not exactly neuro-science! You tell the kids how to do a few sums and where the river Shannon is!