Schools to close on 24th November

97i9y3941

unfortantly wolf,they kinda in a win/win situation,since the gov cant afford to recruit more people,they give the current staff the overtime,who in return ask for more money i guess...

Dannyboy83

uriah wrote: »

As for worrying about having public opinion on our side - who cares? Public opinion is a fickle thing.

Generally, I would argue that is correct.
This time it is not.
Public opinion is steadfast and its against you.

As someone who has cursed the mere words Fianna Fail until yesterday, I believe that they have finally demonstrated real leadership and will now finally begin to galvanize public support. We are witnessing the turning point in the war and the ascent of the Machiavellian Fianna Fail.

They've played you like a violion.
This will be the INTO's Stalingrad.
You have become the focal point of public anger.

The public are so scared and angry, Fianna Fail will soon have a mandate for radical action. Everyone except the teachers knows what the alternative is.

Most members of the public are concerned only about what affects themselves and their families.

But most especially their children.
Because children have become the collateral damage in your campaign, it has solidified parents against the INTO.
Forthcoming threats of higher taxes and cuts to Social Welfare and Pensions to counter INTO greed, will solidify the entire country against you.

I can't imagine teachers rioting, but I can imagine the unemployed rioting.

I think the unions have overlooked the shift in Irish society and the riches to rags phenomenon going on all around us.
In the event that your job is threatened, do you believe it will have been worth it?

Most parents wouldn't care if their child's teacher had to stand knee-deep in water for the minimum wage as long their offspring is in school.

That may be true.
The reality is that the majority of the public are disturbingly aware that the average teachers salary is twice the average industrial wage, @€;60,000 per annum.

Any sympathy they may have had for you, has now evaporated.

The public no longer distinguish between you and the fat cats.
You're now one and same in the eyes of the public.
The difference is, the fat cats are untouchable.
The public will now move behind them.
Checkmate.

Badboy1977

irish_bob wrote: »

whats laughable about it , if i went out and spent all my money on a pair of wellingtons and had no money left for a rod , i could hardly say i was underfunded for going fishing , its bleeding obvious that if you over pay teachers , thier wont be as much for other areas of expendeture in education

To a moron it would. What sort of analogy is that? Read a history book-sys was always underfunded due to way it was set up constitutionally. Many educational systems do both-pay teachers well and fund their Education system properly. Only a simpleton would say it has tp be the one or the other. Well,I suppose someone who uses a fishing analogy to dicuss a budget of a few billion.

OMD

deemark wrote: »

pension levy + health levy + income levy = roughly 10%

It may be merely a statistical detail but it goes a long way to explain why teachers (and other public servants) are so incensed at the idea of more paycuts and the perception out there that they haven't contributed so far.

You cannot count the health levy and income levy. Everyone has to pay that (to cover amongst other things the very high teachers salaries). So in reality it should be pension levy 7.5% less pay increment 2.5%. So 5% reduction in gross pay. However this works at 3.5% reduction (on average) in net pay. However (again) inflation is -6.5% so in real terms average teacher is 3% better off in net pay.

namenotavailablE

Don't forget that there are 2 elements of pension contributions made by teachers/lecturers to their pension- one is superannuation and the other is the public sector pension levy. The percentage paid depends on both your income and whether you joined the system pre- or post- 6 april 1995.

Example: On a salary of €60000 and applying the current rules for a full year, a teacher who joined prior to 6 April 1995 would pay 6.5% superannuation and 7.6% pension levy. A teacher who joined after 6 April 1995 would pay approx 3.6% superannuation and 7.1% public sector pension levy. All percentages are expressed as a percentage of gross pay.

As I understand it, the reason for the difference is that the longer serving teacher's superannuation amount is calculated without adjustment for the contributory OAP- they won't get the OAP as part of their ultimate pension. The other teacher's pension will consist partly of the OAP and a top-up of the 'teaching pension' (or whatever it's called).

murphaph

segaBOY wrote: »

And most teachers only care about what affects their wallet it seems.

It seems so. A lovely line from "the last socialist" on that teacher forum reads;

If non-union teachers are passing the picket and taking classes then get the whistles out and sing your little hearts out. We are not standing outside for the good of our health!

So even if a few (likely vulnerable, temporary) teachers do cross the picket line and TRY to TEACH the kids something on the 24th, this pr!ck wants the children's lessons disrupted. I think the Gardai should be arresting them for breach of the peace if they start blowing whistles and singing to distract children in SCHOOL! Shame on this so called socialist.

namenotavailablE

And most teachers only care about what affects their wallet it seems.

I think 2 points could be made re the above statement:

1. In fairness, ALL workers -whether teachers or not, whether public or private sector employees, whether individuals or corporate entities- would include consideration of their level of earnings as one of their concerns. It can hardly be levelled as a criticism to do so. However, it would be merely one of numerous concerns by these parties.
2. The inclusion of the word 'only' in the statement- as if most teachers are unconcerned about anything else whatsoever- is unjustified and makes for a highly emotive, heavily charged (and demonstrably unfair) statement.

rebel10

Tordelback wrote: »

Look, honestly lads, if teaching is such a cushy number why didn't we all sign up be teachers? I tried it, and no thanks.

Equally, the value of 'making a stand' by striking is obviously to show that teachers won't be pushed around, so they don't become the soft target of every cut. Fair enough, but a bit ****ty for those of us who have to take a day off work to deal with it.

However, teachers and fellow travellers in the public sectors, here's the deal: the company you work for is about to go bust due to vastly decreased revenues. It can't increase revenues, so it has to reduce costs to stay afloat. Your wages are the bulk of costs. It (surely) can't reduce numbers much more than it already has, so unit cost has to come down.

Is it fun for anyone? No. Is it desirable? No.

Is it absolutely necessary? Yes.

Come run a business in the private sector, and spend every day trying to balance the books, not getting paid yourself for months on end while working 90 hours a week trying to keep things going, then finish off your week telling decent hard-working family men that they don't have a job anymore. Is that fun? No. Is that desirable? No.

Is it absolutely necessary? F**k yes.

Sorry teachers, but you need to stop behaving like kids.

Thanks some good points, but please don't tell us we are behaving like kids, think you will see that most of the teachers on this thread have admitted that yes, cuts have to happen, but we also want a broaden the tax barrier to include everyone in this country that is well able to help out, not just the public sector. Is that crazy? Thanks for letting people know its not a cushy job, don't think the people on this thread, for the large part have any idea.

dresden8

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

As someone who has cursed the mere words Fianna Fail until yesterday, I believe that they have finally demonstrated real leadership and will now finally begin to galvanize public support. We are witnessing the turning point in the war and the ascent of the Machiavellian Fianna Fail.

They've played you like a violion.

I think you'll find it's you who has been played like a violin.

You explain it yourself above, and still you cannot see it.

rebel10

segaBOY wrote: »

And most teachers only care about what affects their wallet it seems.

Sorry, but isin't everyone at this point. Bringing students into this is ridiculous. It is a one day strike, please put this in perspective.

murphaph

rebel10 wrote: »

Sorry, but isin't everyone at this point. Bringing students into this is ridiculous. It is a one day strike, please put this in perspective.

I suggest you take a look at that teachers' forum and see what the ringleader is saying. It is aimed to disrupt teaching. It is aimed at the children.

rebel10

murphaph wrote: »

I suggest you take a look at that teachers' forum and see what the ringleader is saying. It is aimed to disrupt teaching. It is aimed at the children.

Of course it is going to disrupt teaching! That is what we do! That is a point of a strike.

Badboy1977

murphaph wrote: »

It seems so. A lovely line from "the last socialist" on that teacher forum reads;

So even if a few (likely vulnerable, temporary) teachers do cross the picket line and TRY to TEACH the kids something on the 24th, this pr!ck wants the children's lessons disrupted. I think the Gardai should be arresting them for breach of the peace if they start blowing whistles and singing to distract children in SCHOOL! Shame on this so called socialist.

You really dont have a clue about these matters -do you? No teacher will pass the picket. Can you point to a case when that occurred in past? Schools will be open. In my opinion -those not in the union wont go in and even Temp teachers wont be asked to go in. Principals and Deputy Principals are union members too (in the main) and will open schools for legal reasons ie if a kid wanders in ,somehow not being aware of a strike.

I would prefer if those not in Union,crossed the line and showed the courage of their convictions. But, given that half of them are just tight bastards-I doubt it! None of them will though. No kids will come in either ,unless their parents are odd.

murphaph

Badboy1977 wrote: »

You really dont have a clue about these matters -do you? No teacher will pass the picket. Can you point to a case when that occurred in past? Schools will be open. In my opinion -those not in the union wont go in and even Temp teachers wont be asked to go in. Principals and Deputy Principals are union members too (in the main) and will open schools for legal reasons ie if a kid wanders in ,somehow not being aware of a strike.

I would prefer if those not in Union,crossed the line and showed the courage of their convictions. But, given that half of them are just tight bastards-I doubt it! None of them will though. No kids will come in either ,unless their parents are odd.

I quoted the direct quote from one of your colleagues who said 'teachers on strike should sing loudly and whistle to disrupt any attempt at teaching that is made'. Care to address that point rather than rambling on about something else?

Do you agree with your colleague's opinion or not?

Nead21

segaBOY wrote: »

I am not condemning your profession, the salaries through out the public sector are far too high and need to be lowered. This is for the greater good of our economy and people here (including myself) have decided to focus on the teachers as you guys just voted for strike action.

If you must know I have looked into becoming a teacher and have asked the teaching council if my degree was acceptable-however with the current labour market I don't see the point in changing career directions to a jobless avenue. I would love to teach science but with the payroll having to be reduced it is not an option for the Department to hire anyone else. Simply put, reduce payroll and maybe then more teachers can be hired. Don't reduce payroll, all new teachers remain unemployed.

If the public sector pay bill (among other things) is not addressed Ireland will slip deeper into recession and we will all be paying back for Government loans over a longer period of time thus causing even more pressure on both the tax payer and general economic activity for a longer period of time.

I was simply highlighting the overinflated wages teachers earn, same could be said for Gardaí, Army Officers, Nurses, Civil Servants etc etc. But this thread is specific to the teachers strike.

Thanks.

As you may remember from my first post, i said that im not really in favour of this strike, and i never disputed the fact that things do need to be reformed in the public sector. Again, im am one of those unemployed teachers (not a graduate) who have suffered due to the cut backs so i didnt vote for strike.

If this was a thread actually debating the merits of reducing pay and reforming the pubic sectors then it would not be condemning teachers, However, some people have used this as an excuse to just blatantly abuse teachers just for the sake of it, and vent their resentment.

It has been quite obvious that some choose only to read the posts that back up their own opinions.

The fact remains that most teachers agree that some sort of reform is required, but continually placing the tax burden on a narrow wage bracket is wrong, without tackling the real culprits who continue to reap large "pat on the back" bonuses. When the pension levy was introduced last year, it didnt make deductions relative to salary level (my principal was down about €10 more than i was per fortnight). If guarantees were put in place that cuts in earnings were done on a fair and across that board manner, then i sure that the yes vote wouldnt have achieved such a high percentage.

implausible

sold wrote: »

you are sure of a pension!, so atleast you should pay for it!!. Thousands of private sector people will NEVER have the public sector pension, its a very cushy number you have!!!. So get real and be glad you have a job for live and a guaranteed pension.

Your public sector pension is secure, you don't have to worry about investing and managing your pension.

How many times?!:rolleyes: We all pay into our pensions. The pension levy is an additional tax. ALL teachers DO NOT have a job for life. (Excuse the capitals, but people just aren't reading the posts.)

segaBOY wrote: »

And most teachers only care about what affects their wallet it seems.

That's a ridiculous, lazy and grossly unfair general statement. When we marched about the education cutbacks, we were accused of this too, even though we were marching about the condition of the education system. Is it any wonder we don't care about public opinion?

wolfpawnat wrote: »

I don't doubt that teaching can be very draining but it's not exactly neuro-science! You tell the kids how to do a few sums and where the river Shannon is!

Yes, you're right, with such an indepth insight you must be an education expert, in classrooms all the time:rolleyes:

murphaph wrote: »

I quoted the direct quote from one of your colleagues who said 'teachers on strike should sing loudly and whistle to disrupt any attempt at teaching that is made'.

There will be no kids in school that day and I doubt anyone will cross the picket, so this won't happen.

murphaph

deemark wrote: »

There will be no kids in school that day and I doubt anyone will cross the picket, so this won't happen.

That wasn't really the point I was making dee. I was highlighting that there are some tossers in the teaching profession who clearly want to disrupt lessons, rather than simply withdraw their labour (which is what a strike is meant to be).

Btw, I can see and understand the frustration that you and other (relatively) young, temporary contract teachers feel. I wish we could dispense with the old guard and bring MORE young teachers into PERMANENT employment.

I believe that you also see 60k+ as being excessive remuneration for a teacher and know that we could have more teachers and world class facilities if we could somehow ditch the union ring leaders (who in reality don't give a stuff about junior teachers or those not in similar circumstances to themselves).

I have learned a lot from this thread in this regard. I didn't realise that such a 2 tier hierarchy existed in our schools and it's disgusting tbh. I accept that a degree of experience is essential in any school but one you've been a teacher for say 3 or 4 years I'm sure you're well able to teach your stuff and handle the class and if you're not, then you probably never will be. I had some great young teachers in school, my form teacher was relatively newly qualified and was passionate and better than ALL the older teachers at explaining his stuff, mainly because he seemed to like it himself and it rubbed off on us. I had a couple of older teachers who were equally as passionate of course, but age didn't automatically mean better teaching, at least in my school.

These older teachers and union stalwarts are in my opinion holding back the progression of younger, passionate teachers and it's a bloody crying shame actually. I also understand the pressure being exerted by these old farts on younger teachers and would imagine sitting in a staff room where you're outnumbered 4:1 could be horrible, especially when this issue is being discussed.

I think 35-40k should be where a teacher's salary is at, with small increments for inflation and all teachers should be on that. Sh!t teachers should be removed, not just paid less.

OnTheBalls

Wohoo. No classes on that Tuesday! I can sit home and play modern warfare 2!

DanSolo

sold wrote: »

So get real and be glad you have a job for live and a guaranteed pension.

Does someone like the above have to make an idiot of themselves by saying this in every single thread about the public sector? Plenty of us ARE NOT permanent staff.

rebel10

murphaph wrote: »

Btw, I can see and understand the frustration that you and other (relatively) young, temporary contract teachers feel. I wish we could dispense with the old guard and bring MORE young teachers into PERMANENT employment.


I have learned a lot from this thread in this regard. I didn't realise that such a 2 tier hierarchy existed in our schools and it's disgusting tbh. I accept that a degree of experience is essential in any school but one you've been a teacher for say 3 or 4 years I'm sure you're well able to teach your stuff and handle the class and if you're not, then you probably never will be. I had some great young teachers in school, my form teacher was relatively newly qualified and was passionate and better than ALL the older teachers at explaining his stuff, mainly because he seemed to like it himself and it rubbed off on us. I had a couple of older teachers who were equally as passionate of course, but age didn't automatically mean better teaching, at least in my school.

These older teachers and union stalwarts are in my opinion holding back the progression of younger, passionate teachers and it's a bloody crying shame actually. I also understand the pressure being exerted by these old farts on younger teachers and would imagine sitting in a staff room where you're outnumbered 4:1 could be horrible, especially when this issue is being discussed.

I think 35-40k should be where a teacher's salary is at, with small increments for inflation and all teachers should be on that. Sh!t teachers should be removed, not just paid less.

Thanks, as a teacher i find it refreshing that someone has begun to understand some of the threads that teachers have wrote here. I do think however, that teachers who have been working 30+ or even teachers who obviously excel in their profession, should be entitled to more than just the average wage. I do think that the sector is changing however. The teachers that are being employed now are over-qualified in many cases, with masters and post graduate degrees. The teaching council have been brought in to ensure this, and this council is something which teachers pay 70 eur a yr for, so as to maintain a high standard for the teaching profession. Generally, those "useless" teachers, who many people came across in their own school yrs, are few and far between these days because of these new standards. Many of these teachers will be retiring shortly as you say.
I don't think the average wage will attract the new highly qualified graduates it is currently, and so we will probably end up seeing average results in state exams. This is only my opinion, so please don't think this is the view of all teachers.
The comment made in a thread about us only having to teach a few sums, shows the obvious ignorance of the public toward teachers and their childrens schooling. Look, i don't think until you are actually teaching, will you be able to understand the challenges we encounter today.

DanSolo

wolfpawnat wrote: »

I don't doubt that teaching can be very draining but it's not exactly neuro-science!

If you work in neuroscience you're likely to be on a three year HRB contract of €42,000 per year. Isn't that great for a minimum of 7 years of training? Even with 20 years experience you might have to take *exactly* the same contract.
Teaching is probably more lucrative TBH...

DanSolo

rebel10 wrote: »

I don't think the average wage will attract the new highly qualified graduates it is currently

Every sector is trying to pull this one though. If ALL salaries are cut then teaching should be comparatively attractive as it was before. That's why increasing tax is fairer IMO as both public and private sector "suffer" equally.

rebel10

DanSolo wrote: »

Every sector is trying to pull this one though. If ALL salaries are cut then teaching should be comparatively attractive as it was before. That's why increasing tax is fairer IMO as both public and private sector "suffer" equally.

Yes, agree tax should be increased for all, not just public sector. I hope you understand that the public sector is suffering job losses as well though. Don't think your comment, cutting teachers wages will attract people the profession needs though, highly qualified. When the country digs itself out of this mess, and you see people earning the kinds of money thay saw in the past few yrs, you won't see it going back into teaching and that is a definate. When we get cut again now, we won't see that money again. Do you think the private sec. will remember these cuts we took? Nope.

DanSolo

I was just saying that if ALL salaries in Ireland were to decrease then teaching would remain just as attractive. Tax is the way to do this rather than cuts. (Though I think I'd go for some sort of sliding scale, i.e. 100% of everything over €150,000 to maybe no extra taxes on €40,000)

segaBOY

Nead21 wrote: »

As you may remember from my first post, i said that im not really in favour of this strike, and i never disputed the fact that things do need to be reformed in the public sector. Again, im am one of those unemployed teachers (not a graduate) who have suffered due to the cut backs so i didnt vote for strike.

Good, I never disputed that.

Nead21 wrote: »

If this was a thread actually debating the merits of reducing pay and reforming the pubic sectors then it would not be condemning teachers, However, some people have used this as an excuse to just blatantly abuse teachers just for the sake of it, and vent their resentment.

My post only speaks for myself. So this point isn't really a valid reply is it?

Nead21 wrote: »

It has been quite obvious that some choose only to read the posts that back up their own opinions.

That can be said for both sides of the arguement. Some people are experts at this tactic.

Nead21 wrote: »

The fact remains that most teachers agree that some sort of reform is required

Do they though? Go over to the forum at educationposts.ie and you will see that many want no cuts full stop-they don't have a clue about the cuts in expenditure that have to be made.

Nead21 wrote: »

, but continually placing the tax burden on a narrow wage bracket is wrong, without tackling the real culprits who continue to reap large "pat on the back" bonuses. When the pension levy was introduced last year, it didnt make deductions relative to salary level (my principal was down about €10 more than i was per fortnight). If guarantees were put in place that cuts in earnings were done on a fair and across that board manner, then i sure that the yes vote wouldnt have achieved such a high percentage.

You don't even know how the cuts are going to be administered and you are already claiming that they are unfair, an average wage of €60k is part of the problem we are in. All public sector workers are part of the budget problem along with all the others (bankers, developers etc etc) so you really are one of the "culprits", if it wasn't for such a bloated and overpaid public sector it would lead to a reduced budget defecit. Fact.

rebel10

DanSolo wrote: »

I was just saying that if ALL salaries in Ireland were to decrease then teaching would remain just as attractive. Tax is the way to do this rather than cuts. (Though I think I'd go for some sort of sliding scale, i.e. 100% of everything over €150,000 to maybe no extra taxes on €40,000)

Ya totally agree, wouldn't it seem like the fairest way? Seems logical, but unfortunately that wouldn't be good for the boys in power. Sliding scale seems to be the only to protect those earning below the average wage.:)

murphaph

DanSolo wrote: »

I was just saying that if ALL salaries in Ireland were to decrease then teaching would remain just as attractive. Tax is the way to do this rather than cuts. (Though I think I'd go for some sort of sliding scale, i.e. 100% of everything over €150,000 to maybe no extra taxes on €40,000)

Think about that a bit more. Taxing someone at 100% is ludicrous, no matter what the threshold. You ELIMINATE the incentive to earn a PENNY more than €150k with your proposal, so you will never get ANY tax revenue from it!!!

40k is big money. It is well above the average industrial wage and would be considered a very nice wage in many EU countries. Ireland's problem is that too few people are in the tax net, not that taxes are too low. In Germany you pay tax on everything, just that those earning very little, pay very little tax, but it all adds up!

segaBOY

murphaph wrote: »

Think about that a bit more. Taxing someone at 100% is communism

FYP

westtip

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

.
Public opinion is steadfast and its against you.

The reality is that the majority of the public are disturbingly aware that the average teachers salary is twice the average industrial wage, @€;60,000 per annum.

.

I think this statement is key - I don't think until all this examination of the public sector pay spend kicked off that those of us on the outside of the priveliged club were actually aware just how overpaid teachers are - The truth is out - People are saying oh my god I didn't realise teachers made that much - I would guess it has come as a shock and surprise to most common ordinary decent folk, the teachers have been found out and they don't like it and in reality they have very little support from the general public. They ask for support of the parents - and people are saying - err you complain about classroom sizes yet you get paid 60K a year? If you want classroom sizes cut - Cut their salaries by 40% and bring in more teachers.

97i9y3941

defo,i think if those in private sector had a chance to keep their job which ment cutting their wages in sure they would take the chance,speaking of the economy etc,we know that cash in hand jobs are frown apon,but there where many teachs doing grinds and that wasnt frowned apon by the gov...