Schools to close on 24th November

Badboy1977

murphaph wrote: »

I quoted the direct quote from one of your colleagues who said 'teachers on strike should sing loudly and whistle to disrupt any attempt at teaching that is made'. Care to address that point rather than rambling on about something else?

Do you agree with your colleague's opinion or not?

Look up the word colleague. Whoever that was ,is not a colleague of mine. We might happen to be in the same profession. But honestly for all you know I could be a bin man. Obviously,he/she/it was winding you up and I think its obvious what my response would be to that opinion. We live in a democracy and you must respect a decision to join/quit or even start a union. If a union member crosses a picket then he/she is out of the union. End of story.


But seriously-you are not a teacher. That much is obvious,so go deal with the issues from your childhood somewhere else!:rolleyes: Therapy?

Dannyboy83

Its just getting silly now with all the personal attacks on people disagreeing with the teachers.

Therapy..............for having an opinion

rebel10

westtip wrote: »

I think this statement is key - I don't think until all this examination of the public sector pay spend kicked off that those of us on the outside of the priveliged club were actually aware just how overpaid teachers are - The truth is out - People are saying oh my god I didn't realise teachers made that much - I would guess it has come as a shock and surprise to most common ordinary decent folk, the teachers have been found out and they don't like it and in reality they have very little support from the general public. They ask for support of the parents - and people are saying - err you complain about classroom sizes yet you get paid 60K a year? If you want classroom sizes cut - Cut their salaries by 40% and bring in more teachers.

Jesus, another one who can't be bothered reading threads. Sorry, but how have teachers been found out? Its not like its been a secret wage. The information has always been there, its just that no one was bothered to find out what it was. No one was bothered because many many other workers were earning alot more so didn't need to worry about other peoples pay. Look if teaching is that lucrative then why aren't you doing it? by what you say, you seem to think you could. Look, yes many teachers earn 60k, but once again these teachers have been teaching 30+ yrs. Describing everybody other than teachers as "decent" says it all to me. Do you really really think by cutting salaries by 40% is going to solve the problem at hand, no.

rebel10

Fred83 wrote: »

defo,i think if those in private sector had a chance to keep their job which ment cutting their wages in sure they would take the chance,speaking of the economy etc,we know that cash in hand jobs are frown apon,but there where many teachs doing grinds and that wasnt frowned apon by the gov...

As there are many tilers, plumbers, list is endless also doing cash in hand, outside of hrs work. What is your point?

SwanV

Did anyone else hear the tax lawyer on Marianne Funucane this morning?

Drummer Mummer

Can I have a job as a teacher please!! 3 months summer, 2 weeks Christmas, 2 weeks Easter, 2 weeks mid term and loads of church holidays and all paid for and they don't work much past 4 o'clock! I would put up with gobby kids for all those perks thanks! I am hopeless at maths but by my reckoning thats 34 weeks out of 52.....nice

SwanV

It was mentioned on marianne funucane's show this morning that a young teacher would actualy fair better not working and being on welfare when you include rent allowance ect...
Not sure how true that is but probably not too far off.

Nead21

segaBOY wrote: »

My post only speaks for myself. So this point isn't really a valid reply is it?

Do they though? Go over to the forum at educationposts.ie and you will see that many want no cuts full stop-they don't have a clue about the cuts in expenditure that have to be made.

ou don't even know how the cuts are going to be administered and you are already claiming that they are unfair, an average wage of €60k is part of the problem we are in. All public sector workers are part of the budget problem along with all the others (bankers, developers etc etc) so you really are one of the "culprits", if it wasn't for such a bloated and overpaid public sector it would lead to a reduced budget defecit. Fact.

it is a valid point, this thread is not a proper debate. im absolutely sick of hearing €60k as an average. has anyone bothered to even ask how these figures were derived? no! how many temp teachers are taken into account and the what was the age/experience/years clocked up profile of this average??

of course no one "wants" to take a paycut, and yes last years paycut was very unfair, so can you blame people assuming that whatever the government has in store is going to be unfair, it is their track record!

many people who have posted on this thread havent a clue about what the issues are or what teaching actually involves...case in point;

Drummer Mummer wrote: »

Can I have a job as a teacher please!! 3 months summer, 2 weeks Christmas, 2 weeks Easter, 2 weeks mid term and loads of church holidays and all paid for and they don't work much past 4 o'clock! I would put up with gobby kids for all those perks thanks! I am hopeless at maths but by my reckoning thats 34 weeks out of 52.....nice

murphaph

Badboy1977 wrote: »

Look up the word colleague. Whoever that was ,is not a colleague of mine. We might happen to be in the same profession. But honestly for all you know I could be a bin man. Obviously,he/she/it was winding you up and I think its obvious what my response would be to that opinion. We live in a democracy and you must respect a decision to join/quit or even start a union. If a union member crosses a picket then he/she is out of the union. End of story.


But seriously-you are not a teacher. That much is obvious,so go deal with the issues from your childhood somewhere else!:rolleyes: Therapy?

Post reported. I don't respond to sh!te like this.

Nead21

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Its just getting silly now with all the personal attacks on people disagreeing with the teachers.

Therapy..............for having an opinion

to say nothing of the personal attacks on teachers! :rolleyes:

irish_bob

westtip wrote: »

I think this statement is key - I don't think until all this examination of the public sector pay spend kicked off that those of us on the outside of the priveliged club were actually aware just how overpaid teachers are - The truth is out - People are saying oh my god I didn't realise teachers made that much - I would guess it has come as a shock and surprise to most common ordinary decent folk, the teachers have been found out and they don't like it and in reality they have very little support from the general public. They ask for support of the parents - and people are saying - err you complain about classroom sizes yet you get paid 60K a year? If you want classroom sizes cut - Cut their salaries by 40% and bring in more teachers.

in defense of teachers , guards and nurses are just as over paid , the difference being nurses are the most sacred of sacred cows in this country so they get a pass

irish_bob

Nead21 wrote: »

it is a valid point, this thread is not a proper debate. im absolutely sick of hearing €60k as an average. has anyone bothered to even ask how these figures were derived? no! how many temp teachers are taken into account and the what was the age/experience/years clocked up profile of this average??

of course no one "wants" to take a paycut, and yes last years paycut was very unfair, so can you blame people assuming that whatever the government has in store is going to be unfair, it is their track record!

many people who have posted on this thread havent a clue about what the issues are or what teaching actually involves...case in point;

its clear that temp teachers and young teachers starting off are dicked around and not particulary well rewarded but that is more to do with the internal politics of the teacher fraternity than anything else

irish_bob

murphaph wrote: »

Post reported. I don't respond to sh!te like this.

did badboy send you abusive private messages too

Nead21

irish_bob wrote: »

its clear that temp teachers and young teachers starting off are dicked around and not particulary well rewarded but that is more to do with the internal politics of the teacher fraternity than anything else

exactly, but in the last budget they were disportionately taxed with the pension levy, while people on higher wages werent heavily hit.

throwing out an average that doesnt reflect all teachers' salaries is unfair.

rebel10

irish_bob wrote: »

its clear that temp teachers and young teachers starting off are dicked around and not particulary well rewarded but that is more to do with the internal politics of the teacher fraternity than anything else

Ya, the internal politics can be a huge issue for younger teachers, but really it is the system of employment. This yr FF also cut concessionary hours for teachers with temp contracts, that basically means, the teachers who teach optional subjects, (those subjects that a student is not obliged to have for their jnr. or leaving cert) such as woodwork, art, music, business etc. Many times, these subjects may not have many hours given to them, due to the fact that numbers taking them vary. In my school, all the teachers of these subjects are on temp contracts. One teacher last yr had full 22 hrs and this yr has 4. Now these are cuts that go unnoticed by the general public, because the media won't cover them. Effectively, because of these cuts (not pay alone) we have lost teachers.

uriah

almostnever wrote: »

The strike is on the second day of the Christmas exams in my school,and so I apparently will have to stay back 2 hours late on two of the other days to complete the exams that I would've sat on the Tuesday,had the strike not been supported by the teachers.

I am seriously considering crossing the picket line and studying in school that day.

I have been taught by a fair few teachers in my time,and as a current sixth year repeat in a new school,I can safely say that 90% of the teachers I have had were utterly inept. I've had the odd few total legends,but there are a disproportionate amount of useless self righteous idiots who will be striking on Tuesday.


How they can justify this strike is beyond me. They need to get over themselves. My sister's Spanish teacher told her that she's "used to her current wage level." No shít,Sherlock. It's called taking a hit,duh.

Today in a study skills session,I was told that there is the event,which I can't control,my response,which I can control,and the outcome,which is the sum of the event and the reaction. This was in relation to the Leaving Cert,of course. Maybe if this was applied to the public sector,and the teachers specifically, there'd be no problems. Because there will have to be pay cuts,and if they don't respond accordingly,the outcome will just be worse.

It's pathetic. It's the same thing as if my parents told me that after receiving ten euro pocket money a week for a number of years,they now have to reduce it to nine because of the financial situation, and if I could somehow "strike" from my family or become emancipated for the day in response,I'd be playing the teacher's role. This strike is childish,and totally incomprehensible.

Ah yes. In your opinion, your taking a €1 cut in your €10 pocket money is the same thing as a teacher with a mortgage and dependent children taking a pay cut (the second one in a year) that applies only to the public sector.
Are you really doing the Leaving Cert?

They haven't taught you how to think or debate in a logical way in that school of yours. I doubt if the Board of management will allow you into the school on the day of the strike, but you could ask.

Grow up.

DanSolo

irish_bob wrote: »

in defense of teachers , guards and nurses are just as over paid , the difference being nurses are the most sacred of sacred cows in this country so they get a pass

Nah, as I said elsewhere, that's the consultants. They get €225,000 basic for 37 hours and use public facilities for their private patients to often double this for an extra shift or two. They basically get to decided their own salaries whenever there's a "pay negotiation", just like the bankers.

DanSolo

Drummer Mummer wrote: »

Can I have a job as a teacher please!! 3 months summer, 2 weeks Christmas, 2 weeks Easter, 2 weeks mid term and loads of church holidays and all paid for and they don't work much past 4 o'clock! I would put up with gobby kids for all those perks thanks! I am hopeless at maths but by my reckoning thats 34 weeks out of 52.....nice

Do you have a degree and a HDip? What's that, 5 years training? That would account for the average PS pay being 4 or 5 years ahead of the "average industrial wage", wouldn't it? Nearly all of the PS are required to have a qualification whereas bartenders and bank tellers aren't.

DanSolo

murphaph wrote: »

You ELIMINATE the incentive to earn a PENNY more than €150k with your proposal, so you will never get ANY tax revenue from it!!!

And? What's the problem with that? If you don't want to do earn any more then somebody else can step in and do the leftovers at the same rate.

segaBOY

Nead21 wrote: »

exactly, but in the last budget they were disportionately taxed with the pension levy, while people on higher wages werent heavily hit.

throwing out an average that doesnt reflect all teachers' salaries is unfair.

Yes, they were-the ceiling in PRSI was raised and the income levy was raised in proportion to how much you earned.

Even higher earners in the public service were hit harder with a higher gross % being taken for their pension levy.

This is such a populous arguement that holds no real weight when you actually look at the figures.

segaBOY

DanSolo wrote: »

And? What's the problem with that? If you don't want to do earn any more then somebody else can step in and do the leftovers at the same rate.

100% taxation eliminates progression in the economy. If someone told me I had to pay 100% tax rate on the extra money I would earn if I took a promotion I wouldn't bother. In fact I'd emigrate.

When you raise higher tax rates to extortionite levels people don't take promotions and in the end it damages our productivity.

Perfect example-some primary schools are finding it difficult to fill principal posts because the staff think that increased gross salary gained is not worth the responsibility due to the amount of extra tax you pay on it.

Nead21

segaBOY wrote: »

Yes, they were-the ceiling in PRSI was raised and the income levy was raised in proportion to how much you earned.

Even higher earners in the public service were hit harder with a higher gross % being taken for their pension levy.

This is such a populous arguement that holds no real weight when you actually look at the figures.

well im going from what was on my payslip and my take home pay. in that case i was disportionately hit compared to senior members of staff who earn alot more than i did

segaBOY

Nead21 wrote: »

well im going from what was on my payslip and my take home pay. in that case i was disportionately hit compared to senior members of staff who earn alot more than i did

Figures please?

Perhaps you should go on actual tax rates. The higher members of staff already pay much more tax than you in the higher bracket (about 50% above threshold when you take income levy, higher tax rate and PRSI into account) hence why the net pay may not look like as big a loss. In reality they are paying much much more of their gross pay to the taxman and always have been.

irish_bob

DanSolo wrote: »

Nah, as I said elsewhere, that's the consultants. They get €225,000 basic for 37 hours and use public facilities for their private patients to often double this for an extra shift or two. They basically get to decided their own salaries whenever there's a "pay negotiation", just like the bankers.

sacred cows among the general population , were nurses on 100 k on average instead of 50 k , the majority of people would still support thier resistance to pay cuts , nurses have a uniquely special place in irish peoples hearts , this stems from the tradition of irish women going abroad and working as nurses , to diss a nurse for a majority of people is to bad mouth your own mom

ps , my mom was a nurse

irish_bob

DanSolo wrote: »

Do you have a degree and a HDip? What's that, 5 years training? That would account for the average PS pay being 4 or 5 years ahead of the "average industrial wage", wouldn't it? Nearly all of the PS are required to have a qualification whereas bartenders and bank tellers aren't.

public sector wages are dicated by what kind of deal their union reps can extract out of the sitting goverment , everything else is secondary

implausible

Drummer Mummer wrote: »

Can I have a job as a teacher please!! 3 months summer, 2 weeks Christmas, 2 weeks Easter, 2 weeks mid term and loads of church holidays and all paid for and they don't work much past 4 o'clock! I would put up with gobby kids for all those perks thanks! I am hopeless at maths but by my reckoning thats 34 weeks out of 52.....nice

What a ridiculous post! What's stopping you?

Or perhaps you've come on here, not to debate the topic in hand, but to announce your future career path.:rolleyes:

DanSolo

segaBOY wrote: »

100% taxation eliminates progression in the economy. If someone told me I had to pay 100% tax rate on the extra money I would earn if I took a promotion I wouldn't bother. In fact I'd emigrate.

Bye bye. Sorry if I don't have a lot of sympathy for someone already on 150k who doesn't want to take a promotion. Maybe there shouldn't be any promotion past 150k? It would force employers to hire a second worker, so it's actually good for employment.:)

spaceballs

uriah wrote: »

Ah yes. In your opinion, your taking a €1 cut in your €10 pocket money is the same thing as a teacher with a mortgage and dependent children taking a pay cut (the second one in a year) that applies only to the public sector.

Of course the pay cut only applies to the public sector, most of us working in the private sector have taken ours months ago!

So far this year I have taken a 20% pay-cut on top of having my work load increased significantly, so much so that I haven't even managed to take any time off since last Christmas because I've had so much work on my plate. I don't mind taking these cuts and taking on the extra work because I realise the severity of the situation in the economy and specifically within the industry that I'm in, however when I hear public sector workers giving out about their cuts I can't help getting annoyed so thought I'd give my 2 cents.

Firstly, the pension levy wasn't really a pay cut, it is going towards paying your pension fund. Up until the pension levy was introduced the level of contributions which public sector employees were making towards the fund were minimal compared to what private sector workers would have to pay towards a fund in order to get the same pension benifits. In fact, it wasn't really costing them anything as whilst they were paying a 5% contribution towards the fund they were actually given a specific 5% pay rise to cover this contribution when it was introduced. A study last year showed the value of the pension received by the public sector workers would be the equivalent of an extra 30% of their annual salary. With life expectancy getting longer, even without the recession the government were going to have to do something to fund future pension payments.

Also, when people talk about the cost of the pension levy to them, they always omit the fact that the pension levy is in fact tax deductible, meaning that to anyone paying tax at the higher rate the effect of the levy on their take home pay is a little over half of the 3%, 6% or 10% that is being quoted.

Also, the pension levy does nothing to reduce the wage cost to the specific departments/schools that employ you!

Fair enough, your take home pay has been reduced, but considering the value of the pension which you are entitled to you are not going to get much sypmathy from me in relation to the pension levy. The pension arrangements were farcical in the public sector up until the levy was introduced!

On to the pay cut that is expected to come in the budget. I've a lot of friends and family working in the public sector, be it teachers, nurses, guards and civil servants. I realise that the a pay cut will make things difficult for a lot of them, however these are difficult times that we are in and I'm getting the impression that a lot of the people in the public sector do not realise how hard things are out there. In my job I have a lot of interaction with owners of a number of different small companies and almost every one I talk to will be happy to just still be in business in a years time, we need to get the economy back on track as soon as possible and that includes the government needing to balance the books. With tax revenue down and with wages being one of their largest costs, obviously they need to reduce their payroll cost. I just hope Lenihan is strong enough to stand up to the unions and do what needs to be done.

segaBOY

DanSolo wrote: »

Bye bye. Sorry if I don't have a lot of sympathy for someone already on 150k who doesn't want to take a promotion. Maybe there shouldn't be any promotion past 150k? It would force employers to hire a second worker, so it's actually good for employment.:)

So lets say I set up a very successful Irish business with a very good business idea. (Sean Quinn is a real life example employing thousands of people). It started off small, myself and a secretary, I managed to earn €30k for the first year-brilliant I did well.

Next year I decided to enter another sector-I struck gold. I hired on an extra 5 people, I gave my secretary a payrise and promoted her to manager. I earned €70k that year.

I was hungry to do better, next year I expanded further-decided to start advertising and providing more services to more customers. I had to hire on an extra 7 people to keep up with demand. I earned €150k that year.

I could have keep expanding and employing many many more people. The demand was there, the business model was good-but the Government decided to put a cap on the amount I earn at €150k. So I decided to keep it at 13 employees and the rest I could have hired are still on the dole queue.

Introducing such an idea to Ireland would suck.

DanSolo

segaBOY wrote: »

I could have keep expanding and employing many many more people. The demand was there, the business model was good-but the Government decided to put a cap on the amount I earn at €150k. So I decided to keep it at 13 employees and the rest I could have hired are still on the dole queue.

Oh good. Then there's enough business out there for somebody else to hire 6 employees. And pay himself up to €150,000.
So in total Ireland now has the same number of workers (13) and *2* bossed getting €150,000. Win win.

segaBOY wrote: »

Introducing such an idea to Ireland would suck.

It would suck if you're Quinn. So? If these times are are bad as people are making out then 150k should be all that anybody expects.